JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Nick depended on Our own Serve Doc for any technical point!
Wrist Acceleration!?
- Thread starter Manhattan
- Start date
Jake Speeed
Professional
I see. Words work, Use more of them explaining.
JY...you can't reveal the man behind the curtain ....like Wizard of Oz.....There's always people behind scenes propping up celebrities /brands helping them to get into Hall of Fame eventually..... appreciate acknowledgment from a well respected friend
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
I was there when he called you and wanted to know what Tommy Haas's backhand grip was!
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Student had a 6/10 grip on the forehand.
Patrick told him he wants a 4/10 grip on the forehand and a 1/10 grip on the serve.
This makes sense.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@zipplock @Jake Speeed
Patrick M says a lot of things that violates / contradicts the actual physics & biomechanics of tennis strokes. Here he is showing a lot of forearm rotations with some minor wrist action but is attributing all to the wrist. Despite these technical inaccuracies, Patrick does a great job of getting his intent across
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Nick B has surrounded himself with coaches & stroke experts who know really know their stuff. Pat D (Serve Doc) is one of these. Have read some of the stuff that Nick has published. He provides a great deal of insight (perhaps a lot of it from his entourage)
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
I guess he's making his point against swinging whole arm as a rigid unit to hit the ball. Instead, he advocates what they usually refer to as "whipping" the racquet at the end of the swing, or "passing the momentum", where arm and hand kind of slow down reaching it's peak, while racquet head pivots around and over.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I came cross a bio of his some time ago. Patrick M started playing tennis around the age of 6 & was a fairly competitive junior player IIRC. But his parents implored him to stop playing to focus on his education. He was being groomed to take over his father's renewable energy firm in France.
However, at the age of 26, PM decided to open his Tennis Academy just outside of Paris in the mid 1990s. His first major academy success was Marcos Baghdatis who he had started coaching in the late '90s. Besides Marcos & Serena, PM & his academy have coached Jeremy Chardy, Grigor Dimitrov, Yanina Wickmayer, Stefanos Tsitsipas, Coco Gauff and several other top 30 players
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Biomechanics and Tennis. B. Elliott
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
www.semanticscholar.org
Semantic Scholar seems to be a great source of publications.
From the above we can see that at the instant of impact that the wrist at 30% is second in importance to internal shoulder rotation (ISR) at 40% and very significant. This table shows identified joint motions and their contribution to racket head speed it does not show 'where the power comes from' - whatever that means?
ISR & Wrist Joint Motions & the Forward Direction. Things get complicated during the ISR part of the tennis serve for the wrist, that is why Table 2 does not state a single defined wrist joint motion for the serve because wrist joint motions in the forward direction are being rapidly changed by the angle of ISR. This is why a few undefined tennis words cannot describe tennis strokes, but can mislead discussions. You will see the same ISR powering the ATP serves today as the arm and racket approach the ball. If you view videos you can make sense of it, but described in tennis terms you can't make sense of it because the terms are not scientific, not defined. For example, the popular instruction to 'swing up at the ball - racket edge on - and, at the last second, rotate the racket head for impact'. That is not what is seen in high speed videos, there is no 'last second' motion between positions #2 and impact at #5 below.
What is going on becomes clearer in high speed videos and this Eggerton strobe picture below. Look carefully at her wrist, positions #2, #3, and #6. The head of the racket has rotated about 90 degrees from ISR. Impact actually occurred at position #5. If you study high speed videos for positions #2 to #6 you will see this universal biomechanics as described by Elliott and identified earlier by badminton researchers,
The wrist motions appear to be caused initially by rapid elbow extension powered before position #2 by the triceps muscle. When many sub-motions occur such as elbow extension and ISR it is difficult to determine the joint motions that are being powered by muscles and those that result from earlier motions. The racket head at position #2 already has considerable speed before reaching position #2 and ISR adds to that.........
To describe the complex biomechanics - that can be seen in high speed videos and has been described in research publications - with a few sentences of 'where power comes from' always muddles understanding. If you don't know the units that power is measured in, is it a good quantity to use in discussions. For ball speed, do you know what Km/hr or MPH means?
Biomechanics and tennis - PMC
Success in tennis requires a mix of player talent, good coaching, appropriate equipment, and an understanding of those aspects of sport science pertinent to the game. This paper outlines the role that biomechanics plays in player development from ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
[PDF] Biomechanics and tennis | Semantic Scholar
The role that biomechanics plays in player development from sport science and sport medicine perspectives is outlined. Success in tennis requires a mix of player talent, good coaching, appropriate equipment, and an understanding of those aspects of sport science pertinent to the game. This paper...
www.semanticscholar.org
Semantic Scholar seems to be a great source of publications.
From the above we can see that at the instant of impact that the wrist at 30% is second in importance to internal shoulder rotation (ISR) at 40% and very significant. This table shows identified joint motions and their contribution to racket head speed it does not show 'where the power comes from' - whatever that means?
ISR & Wrist Joint Motions & the Forward Direction. Things get complicated during the ISR part of the tennis serve for the wrist, that is why Table 2 does not state a single defined wrist joint motion for the serve because wrist joint motions in the forward direction are being rapidly changed by the angle of ISR. This is why a few undefined tennis words cannot describe tennis strokes, but can mislead discussions. You will see the same ISR powering the ATP serves today as the arm and racket approach the ball. If you view videos you can make sense of it, but described in tennis terms you can't make sense of it because the terms are not scientific, not defined. For example, the popular instruction to 'swing up at the ball - racket edge on - and, at the last second, rotate the racket head for impact'. That is not what is seen in high speed videos, there is no 'last second' motion between positions #2 and impact at #5 below.
What is going on becomes clearer in high speed videos and this Eggerton strobe picture below. Look carefully at her wrist, positions #2, #3, and #6. The head of the racket has rotated about 90 degrees from ISR. Impact actually occurred at position #5. If you study high speed videos for positions #2 to #6 you will see this universal biomechanics as described by Elliott and identified earlier by badminton researchers,
The wrist motions appear to be caused initially by rapid elbow extension powered before position #2 by the triceps muscle. When many sub-motions occur such as elbow extension and ISR it is difficult to determine the joint motions that are being powered by muscles and those that result from earlier motions. The racket head at position #2 already has considerable speed before reaching position #2 and ISR adds to that.........
To describe the complex biomechanics - that can be seen in high speed videos and has been described in research publications - with a few sentences of 'where power comes from' always muddles understanding. If you don't know the units that power is measured in, is it a good quantity to use in discussions. For ball speed, do you know what Km/hr or MPH means?
Around 1952, Harold Edgerton, a leading researcher in high speed imaging including stroboscopic photography, photographed Gussie Moran's serve using stroboscopic techniques with light flashes of microseconds duration that are repeated.
http://edgerton-digital-collections.org/?s=hee-nc-49001#hee-nc-49001
See numbers on the picture.
#1 Her foot stays on the ground. Prior to 1962 the rules of tennis required that one foot remain on the ground. All serving techniques prior to that time required that one foot remain on the ground. The leg thrust/jump used in the current tennis serve is now much greater and that affects comparisons to serves before the rule change.
#2 The racket is oriented 'edge on' to the ball, a checkpoint for a high level serving technique. An estimated, 50% of active tennis players do not have their rackets oriented edge on and therefore have a lower performance serving technique. Most don't know.
#3 The racket head has rotated both forward and into the page between #2 and #3. The apparent length of the racket has shortened between #2 and #3 because the racket is viewed at an angle in #3. Place a paper on the screen to measure the apparent racket length difference. Between #2 and #3 the arm and racket are accelerated to high rotation rates into the page by the joint motion of internal shoulder rotation (ISR). There is some evidence that ISR stops accelerating before impact. ? At impact one estimate is that 40% of racket head speed is caused by ISR and 60% is caused by the other swinging motions. The significant part played by ISR was not understood for the tennis serve until about 1995, when researchers B. Elliott, R. Marshall and G. Noffal began publishing research results. In the 1970s, I had carefully studied similar strobe photos in Vic Braden's Tennis for the Future, but I had somehow missed noticing the important racket edge orientations produced by internal shoulder rotation. Upper arm rotation at the shoulder (ISR) never crossed my mind until 2011. Most tennis players don't understand what is shown in the strobe picture.
#4 Peak of the toss.
#5 Ball location at impact.
#6 Racket position after impact.The high speed arm rotation and racket head continue forward after impact probably from momentum with little ISR muscle forces.
#7 Ball trajectory with a downward projection angle as for nearly all serves including kick serves.
#8 Compare the hand and racket face orientations in #2 and #8. The thumb is up in both #2 and #8. There has been about 180° of rotation. That 180° rotation probably came from both ISR and pronation.
Leading up to impact, muscle forces cause ISR to accelerate the arm and racket very rapidly. But ISR continues into the follow through at high speed after the muscle forces have stopped.
You can see similar numbered serve positions in pictures and videos of current serves, except now both feet will be in the air.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Chas Tennis, I believe you missed the thrust of the thread with your epic-length post above. It is not so much about proper biomechanics. Most here agree that Patrick M's emphasis of the wrist actions is technically flawed. I often cringe when I hear his details / technical explanations.
However, when I ignore his explanations and focus on his visual presentation, I pick up a great deal of insight on the ideas he is presenting.
Perhaps he is unaware of the actual technical aspects of the strokes and footwork he presents. But, by the same token, most elite/pro tennis players are usually unaware of these details as well. Ask Novak about his serve and he will inform you that you must snap your wrist. Ouch!
Is also possible that he does know some of the technical aspects of the things he presents but he chooses to use words that he believes his audience will understand. What makes his flawed explanations work is that he does a great job of presenting exactly what he is after. Coaches will sometimes use inaccurate words, on purpose, in order to achieve a desired result. This is often what separates an effective coach from a more precise academic
However, when I ignore his explanations and focus on his visual presentation, I pick up a great deal of insight on the ideas he is presenting.
Perhaps he is unaware of the actual technical aspects of the strokes and footwork he presents. But, by the same token, most elite/pro tennis players are usually unaware of these details as well. Ask Novak about his serve and he will inform you that you must snap your wrist. Ouch!
Is also possible that he does know some of the technical aspects of the things he presents but he chooses to use words that he believes his audience will understand. What makes his flawed explanations work is that he does a great job of presenting exactly what he is after. Coaches will sometimes use inaccurate words, on purpose, in order to achieve a desired result. This is often what separates an effective coach from a more precise academic
xFullCourtTenniSx
Hall of Fame
Many bigger servers, yes. All? Not necessarily, but many elite servers (Sampras, Federer, Roddick, Karlovic, Isner, Groth) open up their fingers/reset their grip at some point during the takeback.
Sampras
Isner, when his hands separate, he opens his ring and pinky finger.
Karlovic is basically holding the racket with only his thumb at the bottom of the takeback.
Roddick resets his hand when he brings his racket and the ball together. Federer does it around the same time. Groth I think I saw an image of him with some fingers opened up, but everything with Groth is low resolution.
Then again, I don't know what you guys consider good servers. Federer used to do this on the forehand (and backhand) as well. He'd open up the bottom 2-3 fingers on his grip as he moved to his forehand.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
"It comes mostly from the wrist."
In that usage the word "comes" has no defined meaning. So readers, that try to understand what is being said, have to fill in the blanks. If several interested and motivated readers posted what they understood from that statement, what would we see?
"A lot of people think the power of the serve comes from the shoulder......and that's not true" "It's all about the wrist." What interpretation of that statement best matches the published research on the biomechanics based on measurements? 40% ISR vs 30% wrist are measured racket head speeds at impact.
I explained that much of the muscle power that accelerates the forearm & racket and causes the wrist movements that we see results from elbow extension and from other miscellaneous sources, to be determined.
What I'd like to hear between an instructor and a student would be something like this -
'leave the wrist muscles in the forearm relaxed so that the forearm & racket can lag behind and build up speed when the elbow extends and X + Y + Z occur. We can see this in high speed videos.' (Shake forearm, wrist and racket or demo sub-motion accurately.)
Of course, the words describing this part of the serve would have to be verified as true. The words would be said while viewing a high speed video or accurately demonstrating the positions. The concept would be to have the descriptive words all true with no overly complicated biomechanics or defined terms that students don't have a background for.
On a forum, unlike for an instructor and student on a tennis court, more information can be discussed.
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And Aravane Rezai
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Looks like you missed the point again. The thread is about Patrick M's videos. Almost of us here are aware that his technical description is flawed. We are not actually debating that. Note that PM is not constrained to a text-based forum
In his video presentations, he shows exactly what he is after. For those of us who are versed in physiology, biomechanics & physics, we are are that his words, that is his technical descriptions, don't quite fit but it's actually happening. Nonetheless he gets his point very across to the average player quite well. As long as we ignore the words that don't make sense, we can learn a lot from his videos.
yossarian
Professional
If I had an instructor tell me this I’d leave on the spot
Again, you seem to be missing the point. The words used to cue players don’t have to be technically true if they are producing the desired effect
Jake Speeed
Professional
Wrist?
Be careful here.
All these "clowns" strive to compete with each other inventing anything they can to develop interest and a following in what they say and pitch. Ego and money. You're not ATP and will never be.
Science and my life long teaching experience tells me to run away from "anyone" who emphasizes the use of wrist.
Photography has already proven pronation is necessary and not excessive wrist movement. In fact, the motion before contact is forearm and the racket traveling upwards at contact point. Follow through the racket is facing out. 180 degrees in actual travel.
I left this place for a while because of all the false information passed on by fools and idiots. Including and not limited to the many so called "professionals" on line.
It's been great being not involved.
JS
Be careful here.
All these "clowns" strive to compete with each other inventing anything they can to develop interest and a following in what they say and pitch. Ego and money. You're not ATP and will never be.
Science and my life long teaching experience tells me to run away from "anyone" who emphasizes the use of wrist.
Photography has already proven pronation is necessary and not excessive wrist movement. In fact, the motion before contact is forearm and the racket traveling upwards at contact point. Follow through the racket is facing out. 180 degrees in actual travel.
I left this place for a while because of all the false information passed on by fools and idiots. Including and not limited to the many so called "professionals" on line.
It's been great being not involved.
JS
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
"Photography has already proven pronation is necessary and not excessive wrist movement. In fact, the motion before contact is forearm and the racket traveling upwards at contact point. Follow through the racket is facing out. 180 degrees in actual travel."
What is mistakenly called 'pronation' in common tennis usage still misleads some readers away from the actual joint motion that research has shown is so significant for the serve.
What is pronation to you?
Look up the definition of pronation & videos on how to measure it.
Look up the definition of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) & videos on how to measure it.
If you search you will also find instructors that describe it incorrectly with clarity and confidence leaving out ISR completely as you did above.
Forum Search: internal shoulder rotation Chas
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yossarian
Professional
Let me ask you a question: does Simon’s lack
of knowledge/accuracy regarding the biomechanics of the serve impact his ability to hit and/or instruct one?
Jake Speeed
Professional
I've said this before and will say this for the last time. The absolute last time.
I was teaching pronation as far back as 1972. There's nothing anyone can teach me about this important element in the serve. Absolutely nothing.
Now go play in your sand box.
JS
tennishabit
Legend
Biomechanics and Tennis. B. Elliott
Biomechanics and tennis - PMC
Success in tennis requires a mix of player talent, good coaching, appropriate equipment, and an understanding of those aspects of sport science pertinent to the game. This paper outlines the role that biomechanics plays in player development from ...
[PDF] Biomechanics and tennis | Semantic Scholar
The role that biomechanics plays in player development from sport science and sport medicine perspectives is outlined. Success in tennis requires a mix of player talent, good coaching, appropriate equipment, and an understanding of those aspects of sport science pertinent to the game. This paper...
Semantic Scholar seems to be a great source of publications.
From the above we can see that at the instant of impact that the wrist at 30% is second in importance to internal shoulder rotation (ISR) at 40% and very significant. This table shows identified joint motions and their contribution to racket head speed it does not show 'where the power comes from' - whatever that means?
ISR & Wrist Joint Motions & the Forward Direction. Things get complicated during the ISR part of the tennis serve for the wrist, that is why Table 2 does not state a single defined wrist joint motion for the serve because wrist joint motions in the forward direction are being rapidly changed by the angle of ISR. This is why a few undefined tennis words cannot describe tennis strokes, but can mislead discussions. You will see the same ISR powering the ATP serves today as the arm and racket approach the ball. If you view videos you can make sense of it, but described in tennis terms you can't make sense of it because the terms are not scientific, not defined. For example, the popular instruction to 'swing up at the ball - racket edge on - and, at the last second, rotate the racket head for impact'. That is not what is seen in high speed videos, there is no 'last second' motion between positions #2 and impact at #5 below.
What is going on becomes clearer in high speed videos and this Eggerton strobe picture below. Look carefully at her wrist, positions #2, #3, and #6. The head of the racket has rotated about 90 degrees from ISR. Impact actually occurred at position #5. If you study high speed videos for positions #2 to #6 you will see this universal biomechanics as described by Elliott and identified earlier by badminton researchers,
The wrist motions appear to be caused initially by rapid elbow extension powered before position #2 by the triceps muscle. When many sub-motions occur such as elbow extension and ISR it is difficult to determine the joint motions that are being powered by muscles and those that result from earlier motions. The racket head at position #2 already has considerable speed before reaching position #2 and ISR adds to that.........
To describe the complex biomechanics - that can be seen in high speed videos and has been described in research publications - with a few sentences of 'where power comes from' always muddles understanding. If you don't know the units that power is measured in, is it a good quantity to use in discussions. For ball speed, do you know what Km/hr or MPH means?
omfg hw many mil x mil 'tennisers' ruined their wrist/elbow/shoulder:?)) w/ tiny bit troubleshooting/probsovling knowledge/skills a 1/2 educated person would isolate multiple variables n test 1x1, 2x2.......etcetc ie modulating test etcetc to find the ans+solutions+options.
dat stupid 'ratio' tells ppl 0% before the shoulder:?)) well, have a look at wheelchair tennis players, m8. no legs no hips lololololol m8, perfect match w/ dat 'ratio' w/ extra-ordinarily strong/huge shoulders/arms/wrists/etcetc due to yrs x yrs arming every thing. our aussie dylan allcourts golden slammer's just broken his own serve speed 400mph world record yesterday...........am i dreaming:?))
..................
yossarian
Professional
omfg hw many mil x mil 'tennisers' ruined their wrist/elbow/shoulder:?)) w/ tiny bit troubleshooting/probsovling knowledge/skills a 1/2 educated person would isolate multiple variables n test 1x1, 2x2.......etcetc ie modulating test etcetc to find the ans+solutions+options.
dat stupid 'ratio' tells ppl 0% before the shoulder:?)) well, have a look at wheelchair tennis players, m8. no legs no hips lololololol m8, perfect match w/ dat 'ratio' w/ extra-ordinarily strong/huge shoulders/arms/wrists/etcetc due to yrs x yrs arming every thing. our aussie dylan allcourts golden slammer's just broken his own serve speed 400mph world record yesterday...........am i dreaming:?))
I sincerely hope Chas responds to this
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