Wrist flexion on 1hbh?

JonC

Banned
At contact, the racquet face is turned slightly closed, like the forehand. At the take back, the wrist is extended. It makes sense that one way to turn the racquet face into the ball is to flex the wrist at contact (going in to contact)

step93.jpeg


- from Revolutionary Tennis


Here's Federer - does anyone else see the wrist going from extended to neutral? I do. This motion would only happen with the Eastern grip - not the more aggressive grips, like Hennin's.

I see a pretty neutral wrist at 2:55 and I know that he starts his swing with an extended wrist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00

federer_backhan-226x300.png


roger-federer-slow-motion-backhand-1024x610.jpg
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
Flexion can happen once in a while but best is to keep the extension and make only minor adjustment in the degree of extension while supinating.

Change face angle by combining supination, hitting further out in front, and/or pulling sideway and opening up if the contact is high , etc.

Fed's bh is perfect for waist high contacts but for higher contact I wouldn't watch his bh. His ability to close the racquet face with good control for higher contact is not the best out there.
 

JonC

Banned
Flexion can happen once in a while but best is to keep the extension and make only minor adjustment in the degree of extension while supinating.

Change face angle by combining supination, hitting further out in front, and/or pulling sideway and opening up if the contact is high , etc.

Fed's bh is perfect for waist high contacts but for higher contact I wouldn't watch his bh. His ability to close the racquet face with good control for higher contact is not the best out there.

Watch that Dimitrov video above - that's pronounced extension to flexion. Do you not do that?
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
Watch that Dimitrov video above - that's pronounced extension to flexion. Do you not do that?
He does use more transitory flexion for high contact than most but I use somewhat different technique to control racquet face for high contact. My hand is more supinated and the racquet not completely horizontal like Dimi. Not trying to compare my bh to his but I'm saying there are more then one way to achieve it. I don't think his is a good model for rec to copy. His rotation is consistently insanely fast. Most recs cannot produce such high rotation speed.

As I said don't make flexion your habit on the 1hbh. IMHO.
 

JonC

Banned
He does use more transitory flexion for high contact than most but I use somewhat different technique to control racquet face for high contact. My hand is more supinated and the racquet not completely horizontal like Dimi. Not trying to compare my bh to his but I'm saying there are more then one way to achieve it. I don't think his is a good model for rec to copy. His rotation is consistently insanely fast. Most recs cannot produce such high rotation speed.

As I said don't make flexion your habit on the 1hbh. IMHO.

I've never even tried it, thought that I was supposed to be extended the whole time. I don't know if it will work for me but it kind of p's me off that i've never heard or read about it before. I've spent years on this backhand…..
 

maxpotapov

Hall of Fame
Whatever you see and then try to do, your wrist should be comfortable with that. Any tension or pinching or stress means bad technique. Do not force any wrist "action", or you will hurt yourself.
 

magnut

Hall of Fame
a lot of players with continental grips are slightly flexed at contact. it one of the reasons they have massive forearms. The farther over the grip goes towards western the less flexion is needed. Continental backhands are a bit tricky to get the feel for hitting high balls and heavy topspin. it is doable though. I had to do a bit of forearm work when I made the switch. if your not strong enough you can get TE pretty easily.
 

JonC

Banned
a lot of players with continental grips are slightly flexed at contact. it one of the reasons they have massive forearms. The farther over the grip goes towards western the less flexion is needed. Continental backhands are a bit tricky to get the feel for hitting high balls and heavy topspin. it is doable though. I had to do a bit of forearm work when I made the switch. if your not strong enough you can get TE pretty easily.

Yeah, I had the ol'TE - miserable year - so I'll be careful. Not to go too much into detail but I have pretty tight shoulders and have a hard time keeping the arm straight - which is why the eastern works better for me I think. I'm sticking with the eastern and going to work on getting the racquet face closed one way or the other.
 

ARKustom93

Professional
Watch that Dimitrov video above - that's pronounced extension to flexion. Do you not do that?

No. Unlike Dimitrov, I adjust from SW-FH to Eastern BH by changing the racquet orientation entirely with my left(non-dominant) hand and re-gripping the handle in that position. Changing grips the other way around(or half&half, like Dimitrov) does result in an extended wrist during take-back and IMO, for anyone short of adv. level, adds a potentially problematic complication in re to timing the 'flip' into neutral wrist position(closing the face) toward contact.
That said, the flip, if executed correctly, facilitates additional RH speed, so if you can handle it, you'll gain both pace and spin ...
 
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JonC

Banned
No. Unlike Dimitrov, I adjust from SW-FH to Eastern BH by changing the racquet orientation entirely with my left(non-dominant) hand and re-gripping the handle in that position. Changing grips the other way around(or half&half, like Dimitrov) does result in an extended wrist during take-back and IMO, for anyone short of adv. level, adds a potentially problematic complication in re to timing the 'flip' into neutral wrist position(closing the face) toward contact.
That said, the flip, if executed correctly, facilitates additional RH speed, so if you can handle it, you'll gain both pace and spin ...

So you keep the wrist extended through contact?
 

oble

Hall of Fame
^^ I think you meant supinate through contact on the BH.

On topic: No... You really shouldn't be flexing your wrist into flexion at contact. That's a recipe for injuring your wrist and elbow.

For people who extend their wrist on the racquet takeback, the wrist is basically returning to a neutral position if you're using around the eastern backhand grip as you swing towards contact. Extreme-eastern and western backhand grip users tend to keep the wrist extended around contact. Continental grip users may have a very very slight flex, especially if making contact outside of the natural strike zone.

You should also not flex your wrist when making contact with high balls. My wrist hurts just imagining that motion. On high balls, your racquet tip should be tilted slightly upwards, wrist neutral or slightly extended, and use ulna deviation to keep the racquet face neutral or slightly closed, swinging with more of a sideways pull/brush.
 
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JonC

Banned
^^ I think you meant supinate through contact on the BH.

On topic: No... You really shouldn't be flexing your wrist into flexion at contact. That's a recipe for injuring your wrist and elbow.

For people who extend their wrist on the racquet takeback, the wrist is basically returning to a neutral position if you're using around the eastern backhand grip as you swing towards contact. Extreme-eastern and western backhand grip users tend to keep the wrist extended around contact. Continental grip users may have a very very slight flex, especially if making contact outside of the natural strike zone.

You should also not flex your wrist when making contact with high balls. My wrist hurts just imagining that motion. On high balls, your racquet tip should be tilted slightly upwards, wrist neutral or slightly extended, and use ulna deviation to keep the racquet face neutral or slightly closed, swinging with more of a sideways pull/brush.


Never advocated or suggested flexing the wrist past neutral.

Can you point to an article or coach that speaks on this? The only place I've found the info is on the Revolutionary Tennis site. I've watched countless videos and read multiple books all concentrating on the one-hand backhand.

It completely explains why I was having so much trouble getting topspin on my 1hbh/eastern grip - years of this and then I find the answer on an obscure tennis site - doesn't say much for mainstream teaching.
 

ARKustom93

Professional
But you start extended right? At the take-back, your wrist is extended.

No. To change grips, I open my RH, rotate the racquet with my left, and re-grip the handle in that new position, Eastern BH, RH wrist is totally neutral and remains so throughout the entire swing. FA-supination into and through contact doesn't change that. My way of changing grips simply eliminates the initial wrist extension; other than that, my form is probably more like Wawrinka's(compact, relatively low take-back, slightly less ISR though).
 

JonC

Banned
No. To change grips, I open my RH, rotate the racquet with my left, and re-grip the handle in that new position, Eastern BH, RH wrist is totally neutral and remains so throughout the entire swing. FA-supination into and through contact doesn't change that. My way of changing grips simply eliminates the initial wrist extension; other than that, my form is probably more like Wawrinka's(compact, relatively low take-back, slightly less ISR though).

Thanks - I wasn't extending to aid my grip change, I was doing it because I though it was needed maybe to achieve a strong wrist position (seemed like that's what i was seeing and reading but it's not correct).
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
At contact, the racquet face is turned slightly closed, like the forehand. At the take back, the wrist is extended. It makes sense that one way to turn the racquet face into the ball is to flex the wrist at contact (going in to contact)

step93.jpeg


- from Revolutionary Tennis


Here's Federer - does anyone else see the wrist going from extended to neutral? I do. This motion would only happen with the Eastern grip - not the more aggressive grips, like Hennin's.

I see a pretty neutral wrist at 2:55 and I know that he starts his swing with an extended wrist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00

federer_backhan-226x300.png


roger-federer-slow-motion-backhand-1024x610.jpg


Here is impact at 2:55 mentioned above.

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I'd see that as wrist extenion. I guess it could be called neutral also if you want to define your usage.

There is a communication issue when wrist joint motions are mixed with wrist joint angles - extension can refer to joint position or joint motion. For example, the wrist angle could be 'in extension' while 'flexing'. There have been forum arguments because of the usage of the joint motion terms and the joint position terms.

"Here's Federer - does anyone else see the wrist going from extended to neutral? I do."

In both of the pictures in the OP, Federer's wrist is 'in extension' (a position). He could be flexing it (a motion) also. ?

A picture can only show joint position. A video can show both position and, from the frame before, also indicate motion.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Chas - I don't see extension there. This is extension:

images

Can you Google your usage of the term Extension for the wrist?

wrist%20flexion%20extension.jpg


Extension and flexion are defined and measured by the angle between the ulna and the hand bone that leads to the little finger, the 5th Metacarpal

I don't agree with you in usage. I see small angles as well as large angles as either extension or flexion. My estimates from videos are not going to be that accurate but I'd see the Federer wrist position as extension by looking at the ulna bone and making my guess as to how the bone of the hand is oriented.

I don't know if 'neutral' is defined but very small angles of extension or flexion could be called neutral if you clarify that. Certainly if extension = flexion = 0° then that would be neutral.

I believe that the discussions by Knudson were not dealing with these very small angles of extension or flexion around 0°, but more visible wrist extension or flexion.
 
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JonC

Banned
Can you Google your usage of the term Extension for the wrist?

wrist%20flexion%20extension.jpg


Extension and flexion are defined and measured by the angle between the ulna and the hand bone that leads to the little finger.

I don't know if 'neutral' is defined but small angles of extension or flexion could be called neutral if you clarify that. Certainly if extension = flexion = 0° then that would be neutral.

Just watch this Dimitrov video at :40, you'll see him flex his wrist from extended towards neutral

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hyjVnG6CAGI
 

maxpotapov

Hall of Fame
Grip, non-hitting arm and racquet inertia define wrist positions from take back to follow through. Especially on 1HBH.
So the problem is to find the swing path which would comfortably set your wrist in the positions that you see on youtube and in the pictures of top players.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
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120px-Fifth_metacarpal_bone_%28left_hand%29_-_animation01.gif
[/IMG]

If I put a protactor on this image and make my best guess for where the unla is and where the hand bone is for the little finger (5th Metacarpal) I get about 25-30°. I was surprised by how large it was. That is not an accurate measurement as we would get in a lab, but I don't believe that the wrist angle is small.

Neutral? What angle do you estimate for the wrist in this picture?
 
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oble

Hall of Fame
Never advocated or suggested flexing the wrist past neutral.

Can you point to an article or coach that speaks on this? The only place I've found the info is on the Revolutionary Tennis site. I've watched countless videos and read multiple books all concentrating on the one-hand backhand.

It completely explains why I was having so much trouble getting topspin on my 1hbh/eastern grip - years of this and then I find the answer on an obscure tennis site - doesn't say much for mainstream teaching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbGVa7mxqM

This is a good vid on teaching how to handle and drive the high backhand while maintaining some form of spin. If you pause the vid at various parts of the video when he demonstrates his high backhand, you can see his wrist is neutral or slightly extended (he also has an eastern-ish bh grip), but the tilting upwards of the racquet tip allows good contact angle of the racquet face without needing to put the wrist into flexion.

I'm short and have to handle my fair share of high balls with my 1hbh, and my high slice backhand is quite hopeless, so I find his vid really helpful. I have also experimented with all sorts of 1hbh grips so I can approximately picture how the wrist position is for each grip at contact.
 

julian

Hall of Fame
A bit newer publication

Please, leave me a mail i will send you same material.

A Comparison of Wrist Angular Kinematics and Forearm
EMG Data for an Elite, Intermediate and Novice Standard
Tennis Player Performing a One-handed Backhand
Groundstroke
Jonathan A. Glynn 1
, Behzat B. Kentel 2
, Mark A. King 1+
and Sean R. Mitchell 2

1
School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, Loughborough University, Loughborough, LE11 3TU, UK.
2
Wolfson School of Mechanical and Manufacturing Engineering, Loughborough University, Loughborough,
LE11 3TU, UK.
(Received August 12 2007, accepted September 2 2007)
Abstract. Wrist angular kinematics (flexion/extension) and electromyography (EMG) data of a one-handed
tennis backhand groundstroke were compared for an elite, intermediate and novice standard tennis player.
For this purpose, synchronisation of the data with respect to ball impact time was achieved by a system of
wireless and wired triggers and receivers. All three players maintained wrist extension for the 0.6 second
period centred on ball impact. The elite and intermediate player struck the ball with the wrist extended by an
average of 10o
from neutral alignment whilst moving towards flexion. After ball impact the wrist moved
back towards and further into extension. The novice player was characterised by fluctuations in the wrist
flexion/extension angle prior to ball impact with the wrist extended on average by 30o
from neutral alignment
at impact. The wrist of the novice palyer moved back towards and further into extension after ball impact,
although less than for intermediate and elite players. For the elite player, peak EMG levels for the wrist
flexors and extensors were reached consistently 0.05-0.1 seconds prior to ball impact. Wrist flexor EMG
levels for the intermediate and novice players peaked on average 0.02 seconds after ball impact and extensor
EMG levels peaked at ball impact. For the novice player, both flexor and extensor EMG data exhibited
fluctuations consistent with the wrist kinematics data. Previously cited conditions that predispose a novice
player to injury were not observed in this study. Given current injury mechanism theories, the data from this
study suggests that the susceptibility of a player to tennis elbow injury cannot be established by generic skill
level alone. Tennis players need to analysed as individuals.
Keywords: backhand, tennis, elite, intermediate, novice, wrist kinematics, EMG.
 

VoodooBoot

Semi-Pro
A Comparison of Wrist Angular Kinematics and Forearm
EMG Data for an Elite, Intermediate and Novice Standard
Tennis Player Performing a One-handed Backhand
Groundstroke
Jonathan A. Glynn 1
, Behzat B. Kentel 2
, Mark A. King 1+
and Sean R. Mitchell 2
...

That's the abstract (and keywords, authors).
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Fair enough.

If you happen to be in college your school may have access to some of these publications.

The British Medical Journal? gives a free trial subscription.

Rese......................................................................................................................................

This is the National Center of Biotechnology Information (NCBI). It has many selected important publications available online and free ("PMC" collection).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=tennis

Some other NCBI databases may have abstracts only.

Search using Google Scholar.
http://scholar.google.com/
Often to the right free sources of publications are indicated.
 
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ARKustom93

Professional
Do you speak from experience or are you making a judgement on what you see in the video?

Both. Essentially, the extension you see toward the end of the swing is the remaining head momentum pulling the wrist into that position. In BH #2(if you pay close attention) you can actually see the pinkie and ring-finger 'open up' at the very end to allow additional racquet head movement past max wrist extension.
 

JonC

Banned
Both. Essentially, the extension you see toward the end of the swing is the remaining head momentum pulling the wrist into that position. In BH #2(if you pay close attention) you can actually see the pinkie and ring-finger 'open up' at the very end to allow additional racquet head movement past max wrist extension.

Ok - I see that. One less thing to worry about.
 
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