WTF groups

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
As always, Nadal gets Dimitrov in his draw. Looks like they do that on purpose knowing how bad Nadal plays against him. Thiem can also be very dangerous indoors. Don't forget how dangerous Ferrer was for Nadal on this surface.
Not sure if jk.
1. The best HC level I've seen from Rafa all year and since 2013 came vs. Dimi in parts of their Beijing match
2. Ferrer could play on HC. Thiem......... not so much. Thiem and Ferrer are very different player types in case you can't tell.

Edit: Well done:
Again, dodging the humongous elephant in the room - you saying Thiem is dangerous indoors. I'll remember that one for years to come. :D

It all boils down to surface and specific matchups. Now, aside from being very much obvious that a good serve and a power game helps you indoors, you could just look at the stats. Cilic has 8 indoor titles (of 17 all together), is a HC GS winner, and additional 4 indoor finals - that is considerably more than Thiem, Goffin and Dimitrov TOGETHER. Cilic also has a bad H2H with all Big 4, not just with Roger. Zverev has 2 indoor titles (of 6) and a 2-2 H2H with Roger. Sock has 1 indoor title (Paris Masters, 4 all together), and 2 more finals. All of them have a game much more suited to indoor HC than any of the three in the other group.

If they were playing on clay, you'd have a point. On a fast indoor HC you are so off it's not even funny. Now tell me again how the groups are equal, and please touch on Thiem's indoor prowess if you find the time :D :D :D
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
That’s true, but neither is Thiem. Almost all his points are from the clay swing. Question is, is Sock more dangerous than Goffin? If so, we could argue that Federer without a doubt was handed the tougher group (which already is kind of true having to deal with both Zverev and Cilic).
Sock is a tougher opponent for him than Goffin, but it's not like he should struggle at all against Sock either. The guy's serve is average at best and his BH blows. Truth be told, his FH, while pretty good is not really an upper tier shot either IMHO. People (especially casual observers) just hear that he hits it with as much or more spin than Nadal and they think it must be one of the best shots in the game, but it's not.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Sock is a tougher opponent for him than Goffin, but it's not like he should struggle at all against Sock either. The guy's serve is average at best and his BH blows. Truth be told, his FH, while pretty good is not really an upper tier shot either IMHO. People (especially casual observers) just hear that he hits it with as much or more spin than Nadal and they think it must be one of the best shots in the game, but it's not.
Socks forehand is great with time on the ball, which is something an in-form Federer won't give him. I do think Sock has a good serve though and he has good hands as well. Should be no problem though, not even sure he'd be tougher than Goffin. If Federer is off I'd rather he was playing a guy like Sock than Goffin.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Dimitrov, Cilic and Zverev all about the same level of difficulty, so Fed has landed 2. If Delpo had qualified he's have gotten him too so at least that didn't happen though sad for Delpo missing out. In reality though he needs a break from tennis for a few weeks.

Dimitrov probably more dangerous to Nadal than Federer if he's on form.

But whatever the case, you still expect Fed and Nadal to make the knockout stages. Federer could lose to Cilic and Zverev but can't see Nadal losing 2 matches.

This is it, Nadal has sealed the number 1 but this is a shootout for who takes the most big titles. If Nadal wins the WTF he's won the bigger titles as well and surely silenced his doubters. If not Federer has taken the most big titles, which is fair consolation for not getting number one. I'd happily take that.
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal gets the easy draw, couldn't have seen that coming lol. Organisers gotta make sure he reaches later stages.
But more seriously neither of them are going to have problems with their draw.
 

73west

Semi-Pro
That’s true, but neither is Thiem. Almost all his points are from the clay swing. Question is, is Sock more dangerous than Goffin? If so, we could argue that Federer without a doubt was handed the tougher group (which already is kind of true having to deal with both Zverev and Cilic).
Basically, I'd argue Nadal got the easier draw for this simple reason: It's easy to imagine Dimitrov, Zverev or Cilic doing well enough to advance. Those are guys who have strong hard court results and who have won big tournaments, played well in big spots. That's 2 in Fed's pod, and 1 in Nadal's. Since 2 is the magic number ...
 

Thundergod

Professional
I want to see a healthy Fed get revenge on Zverev at the very least. Also, why do people still think that Dimitrov would be any kind of trouble for Fed in the SF? People said that before they played each other in Wimbledon and I'm still baffled. He has the same Fed complex as Goffin, not to mention a bad matchup.
 
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FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
Again, dodging the humongous elephant in the room - you saying Thiem is dangerous indoors. I'll remember that one for years to come. :D

It all boils down to surface and specific matchups. Now, aside from being very much obvious that a good serve and a power game helps you indoors, you could just look at the stats. Cilic has 8 indoor titles (of 17 all together), is a HC GS winner, and additional 4 indoor finals - that is considerably more than Thiem, Goffin and Dimitrov TOGETHER. Cilic also has a bad H2H with all Big 4, not just with Roger. Zverev has 2 indoor titles (of 6) and a 2-2 H2H with Roger. Sock has 1 indoor title (Paris Masters, 4 all together), and 2 more finals. All of them have a game much more suited to indoor HC than any of the three in the other group.

If they were playing on clay, you'd have a point. On a fast indoor HC you are so off it's not even funny. Now tell me again how the groups are equal, and please touch on Thiem's indoor prowess if you find the time :D :D :D
B-b-but they're all top 8! The best of the best!
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Nadal will slay if healthy, but probably isn't.
Given that he's secured the number one, I'd be amazed if he played without being in near tip top shape. Nothing to gain unless he REALLY coverts that WTF title and fancies his chances of beating Federer there at one of his worse places to matchup vs him in a year where Fed beaten him 4 times and won the last 7 sets. And if he does fancy his chances of that he must feel pretty confident about his health
 

sbengte

G.O.A.T.
Given that he's secured the number one, I'd be amazed if he played without being in near tip top shape. Nothing to gain unless he REALLY coverts that WTF title and fancies his chances of beating Federer there at one of his worse places to matchup vs him in a year where Fed beaten him 4 times and won the last 7 sets. And if he does fancy his chances of that he must feel pretty confident about his health
This. It was clear to anyone with at least half a brain.
 

Fedberg20

Semi-Pro
Is Nadal playing for sure ?
He says he is. Some inconsistent info coming from Nadal camp regarding the knee - first the doctor said they’ll start testing it come Wednesday and see how it goes, now both Moya and Rafa say he’ll play as the knee is ok. What a difference a draw makes!

My guess is that Rafa saw the draw and figured he can win 2 or 3 matches even not at 100%, and just maybe someone does the dirty work for him and eliminates Roger. We’ll see how confident he is in winning the WTF right before the matches. If he is wearing knee support, he doesn’t think he’ll win it and is just there for some easy points. If not, he might even think he has a good chance. But I bet my bottom dollar if Rafa plays Roger that thing is going to be on the knee so he can remain ‘undefeated when healthy’.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Well this was the only way Nadal and Thiem could have met off-clay.
If they both play to the best of their abilities, it should be a blockbuster match. Nadal is the better HC player going by accomplishments, but Thiem has the weapons to hurt him indoors; but both are chumps indoors, especially when you compare them to their clay prowesses.

Thiem did take a set off Djokovic this time last year though, so it's not like he can't play at a high level indoors.
 

every7

Hall of Fame
If you look at it from Nadal's standpoint, I actually think he would prefer to switch spots with Federer.

Of all the guys playing, the only guy who's beaten Rafa besides Federer is in Rafa's group. The dangerous and in-form Dimitrov is also in Rafa's group.

It's not the perfect result but we'll see how he goes......

I think Federer will feel comfortable with his group but will be wary if Zverev looks reinvigorated.

It is Federer's tournament to win if he is at his best levels because these are very favourable conditions for him and his best level has been irresistable in 2017 in these sorts of conditions.

Hopefully Rafa's knee is okay. He will have to be at his absolute best to avoid Federer rampaging here imo.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
It really depends how you look at it. Sure, Roger has a tougher group, there is no doubt about that. However, I'd fancy Roger and Nadal to go through in any group, so it doesn't matter who is in it.

Besides, Zverev and Cilic are out of form right now and have had some tough losses recently. Sock is obviously on a high from Paris, but he played a mug field and even his best can't take Roger down. So although Federer could always lose to Zverev and/or Cilic, I still expect him to advance rather comfortably. And in the SF he gets one his pigeons, old or new, doesn't matter, so if he is out of the group, he makes the final. His match with Murray demonstrated he is obviously fresh, in good shape and solid form, so he remains the no. 1 favorite.

Rafa is supposedly still struggling a bit and might not even play. I'd say that Dimitrov, Goffin and even Thiem on faster courts aren't really a cakewalk draw for Rafa, as Dimi can outgrind him, Goffin can hurry him and Thiem can overpower him. Having said that, if he is fit, he probably goes 3-0. But from then on he meets someone with a good serve and at least a solid baseline game to back it up. He'll have a tough time winning this one.

Now, what I do bemoan is the lack of variety in the matchups - 4 good servers and big hitters on one side, and 4 returners/grinders on the other side. It might be one of those "see 1 match, you've seen them all" in the groups. Well, I guess it's just been that kind of year.
Spot on. What makes this a great, great draw is that both Federer and Nadal have the toughest draws possible. Thiem would probably be marginally better off in Fed's section, but only to get away from Goffin. All of the players are in a group where they have a shot to make the semi-final.

The draw has been evened as much as possible so this is not a complete walkover. Unlike the NextGen finals every player is coming in with some baggage except Sock. It's impossible to tell who has recovered enough to potentially stop the horror of another Fedal match in a final once again. This could be survival of the least unfittest or something special.:p
 

Polvorin

Professional
All three players in Fed's group are more of a threat than any of the three in Nadal's.

Nadal on one leg might legitimately make it through that group.

Still expect the maestro to come through though... he's still the best in fast conditions, of course.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Yp, Nadal plays really bad against Dimitrov. That is why their H2H is a remarkably close at 10-1. If you are referring to the effort or length of their matches, you have a point, however Nadal usually plays a routine 6-2 6-3 match in just under 2 hours anyways. And please tell me on what exactly makes you think Thiem can be dangerous indoors, and how on earth does Thiem's game compare to Ferrer's?

Even you should admit that Rafa got the much easier group.
To put Ferrer in the same breath with Thiem is laughable. When has Ferrer ever challenged Nadal and Djokovic on clay in the manner Thiem did in 2017? It's really not even close. Ferrer has never amassed a clay season as good as Thiem's 2017.:rolleyes:
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
If Nadal "owns" Federer, then I don't know a fitting word for his match-up with Dimitrov.
That's when you use 2: soul crushing.

Seriously though, Dimi always gives Nadal a tough match especially on HC so despite Rafa coming out on top in nearly every match they've played, it won't be easy.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Sock is a tougher opponent for him than Goffin, but it's not like he should struggle at all against Sock either. The guy's serve is average at best and his BH blows. Truth be told, his FH, while pretty good is not really an upper tier shot either IMHO. People (especially casual observers) just hear that he hits it with as much or more spin than Nadal and they think it must be one of the best shots in the game, but it's not.
Socks forehand is great with time on the ball, which is something an in-form Federer won't give him. I do think Sock has a good serve though and he has good hands as well. Should be no problem though, not even sure he'd be tougher than Goffin. If Federer is off I'd rather he was playing a guy like Sock than Goffin.
So how on earth did Sock get into a breaker in their last match?
10/2017 SF Indian Wells Masters Hard Roger Federer Jack Sock 6-1 7-6(4) 1.30 - 3.50

Sockberger's game is much, much better than it was at IW. And he just won Paris Masters in what should be almost identical conditions to London. Dangerous, dangerous player in London with a new game coming together thanks to Jay Berger.o_O
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
All three players in Fed's group are more of a threat than any of the three in Nadal's.

Nadal on one leg might legitimately make it through that group.

Still expect the maestro to come through though... he's still the best in fast conditions, of course.
So Zverev the guy who's been struggling to get past the first couple rounds for the past 3 months is tough?

Or Sock? LMAO that guy is nowhere near top 10 material only there because half the tour is on life support.

Then there's Cilic who will not be a threat to either Fed or Nadal anyway.

Those guys are not hard opponents at all.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Given that he's secured the number one, I'd be amazed if he played without being in near tip top shape. Nothing to gain unless he REALLY coverts that WTF title and fancies his chances of beating Federer there at one of his worse places to matchup vs him in a year where Fed beaten him 4 times and won the last 7 sets. And if he does fancy his chances of that he must feel pretty confident about his health
Exactly, I just don't feel like he's up for it right now, and after securing #1, he shouldn't push it.
 
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