WTF ironically has become a Big tournament with the weakest winners?

Yugram

Yugram

Legend
Since 2017, it’s been won by:

Dimitrov, Zverev, Tsitsipas, Medvedev

Only 2 of them participated in a Slam final and none of them won a Slam. For example, list of Rome Masters champions in that time frame:

Zverev, Nadal, Nadal, Djokovic

Or Cincinnati Masters:

Dimitrov, Djokovic, Medvedev, Djokovic

An event, which should supposedly be won by the best of the best, has become a joke and indicates less than an average Masters title.

#Irrelevant ;)
 
Yeah. It's a sign o the times. Big guns come out best over five sets under the biggest pressure. Too tired to give it their all at WTF. Young guns still got energy cos young and not tired themselves out winning slams. It's like cats marking their territory.
 
iu
 
If beating 4 or 5 top 8 especially 5 top 8 consecutively players is a badge of weakness, then this entire sport is a farce and should be stopped immediately. No meaning of rankings, no meaning of any players.

Snatch their racquets and throw them in sewers. They are useless.


People questioning WTF legitimacy question the legitimacy of the very sport they watch.
 
Yugram said:
Can you argue against the fact that most, if not all of the Masters had stronger winner list in the last 4 years than the tournament for supposed "best of the best", fednaticalaplayan?
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Well, first of all your spin on the term I used is bollocks. Secondly, shame on the GOATs for not making hay in such glorious sunshine. It retroactively holding less value due to the recent calibre of victor would be a nice narrative for some though, I'd imagine ;)
 
ForehandCross said:
If beating 4 or 5 top 8 especially 5 top 8 consecutively players is a badge of weakness, then this entire sport is a farce and should be stopped immediately. No meaning of rankings, no meaning of any players.

Snatch their racquets and throw them in sewers. They are useless.


People questioning WTF legitimacy question the legitimacy of the very sport they watch.
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I question how much effort exactly is being put by the very best players there, if 2019 champion can‘t even win a 500 title, forget Slams or Masters.
 
If the Big 3 not winning a title can be a joke then the big 3 winning Slams should also be a joke since they are jokers all along?

Well, Tennis doesn't work that way.

Historically Tennis has not seen old winners in the WTF, Federer has been the oldest to win it at 30 years of age which is a record. I think Murray won it at 29? So you cannot expect the oldies to win the title in their 30s now.

The next gen are winning it, rightfully so, nothing wrong in it.

It is a prestigious tournament, just because Claydal has never won it doesn't mean the tournament lacks prestige, thats like saying French open has no prestige because Sampras never won it.
 
Would love for Nadal to win it get that monkey off his back. It’s moving to Turin so hopefully he gets more purchase on his FH on that court, indoors is a kind of kyriptonite for his spin. All in all if he doesn’t and he gets a couple of slams up on Fed it will be irrelevant him winning this event in the debate between who is the greater between the 2. It is still a important trophy I know it get’s degraded because Nadal has not one it but it still remains relevant points and prize money marketing suggest it’s 2nd most important tournament just under the slams.
 
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Laver never won this title and it doesn’t affect his legacy in the list of greatest players the slams carry much more weight so for me the last winners can’t really have a lasting legacy without a slam win. Say Medevdev racks up 3 ATP finals but fails to win a slam he will have a great career but won’t be as good as Del potros 1 US open?
 
DIMI_D said:
Would love for Nadal to win it get that monkey off his back. It’s moving to Turin so hopefully he gets more purchase on his FH on that court, indoors is a kind of kyriptonite for his spin. All in all if he doesn’t and he gets a couple of slams up on Fed it will be irrelevant him wining this event in the debate between who is the greater between the 2. It is still a important trophy I know it get’s degraded because Nadal has not one it but it still remains relevant points and prize money marketing suggest it’s 2nd most important tournament just under the slams.
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Marketing may suggest many silly things, like Federer somehow being the GOAT, but we, true fans of the sport, can see how things really are. (Yes, Rojahh, we see these 10-21 at Slemz)
 
DIMI_D said:
Would love for Nadal to win it get that monkey off his back. It’s moving to Turin so hopefully he gets more purchase on his FH on that court, indoors is a kind of kyriptonite for his spin. All in all if he doesn’t and he gets a couple of slams up on Fed it will be irrelevant him wining this event in the debate between who is the greater between the 2. It is still a important trophy I know it get’s degraded because Nadal has not one it but it still remains relevant points and prize money marketing suggest it’s 2nd most important tournament just under the slams.
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Technically nobody can be greater than other person by being behind him in some area.

Neither Federer nor Djokovic can claim that they are better than Nadal because Nadal is better than them on Clay in a way they never can be.
Vice Versa
Nadal can never claim that he is better than Federer/Djokovic in a million years because he is so far behind on HCs, Wimbledons, Weeks at 1, WTFs (0??...).
 
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Iny
Yugram said:
Marketing may suggest many silly things, like Federer somehow being the GOAT, but we, true fans of the sport, can see how things really are. (Yes, Rojahh, we see these 10-21 at Slemz)
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The media will turn if Nadal goes a couple of slams clear of Fed. Fed will remain more popular but as who is the greater I think the tide will turn in Nadal’s favour if he gets the slam record and holds onto it.
 
Yugram said:
Marketing may suggest many silly things, like Federer somehow being the GOAT, but we, true fans of the sport, can see how things really are. (Yes, Rojahh, we see these 10-21 at Slemz)
Click to expand...

Of course Federer is the GOAT, at least in the open era he definitely is and will remain so.

He leads everyone else in most out of the 5 parameters which are the most important :p

01. Most money earned (the guy still has the most endorsements despite not being in the top 2 or 3 anymore, tells a lot on how he is seen by the crowd, he is the most popular athlete by far)
02. Most Laureus Sportsman awards ( This is the award which a Tennis player win in an year competing against other sportspersons )
03. Slams won
04. Weeks at 1
05. World Tour Finals won

Even if he loses the slams record he will have 3 out of 5 records, beat that.
 
Also minus Dimitrov the other 3 winners have excellent chances to become slam champions. Novak and Rafa cannot play forever when they retire the likes of Tsitsipas will be in his prime. Medvedev is knocking on the door. Zverev has the game but not the confidence at present but circumstances change
 
Sunny014 said:
Of course Federer is the GOAT, at least in the open era he definitely is and will remain so.

He leads everyone else in most out of the 5 parameters which are the most important :p

01. Most money earned (the guy still has the most endorsements despite not being in the top 2 or 3 anymore, tells a lot on how he is seen by the crowd, he is the most popular athlete by far)
02. Most Laureus Sportsman awards ( This is the award which a Tennis player win in an year competing against other sportspersons )
03. Slams won
04. Weeks at 1
05. World Tour Finals won

Even if he loses the slams record he will have 3 out of 5 records, beat that.
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1 & 2 LOL

4 Not anymore;)
 
Tennis_Freak99 said:
1 & 2 LOL

4 Not anymore;)
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1 - Means most popular, surely the GOAT should be the most marketable as well, isn't it ? If Federer had crossed Sampras's 14 with a 15 and Pete still remained the most popular then what would that have said about Federer ? Of course money also matters.

2- Even if you ignore point 1 then what about 2 ??? Federer has 5 sportsman of the year awards while Djokovic has 4 and Nadal has just 1, this award shows that they are competing with Bolt, Hamilton, Phelps, Schumacher, Woods etc etc type guys and emerging 1 in the year across all sports. The fact that Nadal has only 1 shows his impact has not been as much as Fedovic's.
 
Sunny014 said:
Of course Federer is the GOAT, at least in the open era he definitely is and will remain so.

He leads everyone else in most out of the 5 parameters which are the most important :p

01. Most money earned (the guy still has the most endorsements despite not being in the top 2 or 3 anymore, tells a lot on how he is seen by the crowd, he is the most popular athlete by far)
02. Most Laureus Sportsman awards ( This is the award which a Tennis player win in an year competing against other sportspersons )
03. Slams won
04. Weeks at 1
05. World Tour Finals won

Even if he loses the slams record he will have 3 out of 5 records, beat that.
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Too funny. Any chance you are Federer’s personal clown?
 
Yugram said:
Too funny. Any chance you are Federer’s personal clown?
Click to expand...

You seem to be Nadal's personal clown who is hurt from the fact that Nadal has 0 WTFs, doesn't lead in popularity/money, doesn't have Sportsman of the year awards like his other 2 peers, hasn't ruled any decade (00s ruled by Fed and 10s by Djoker) ?

All he has is Clay where he truly is an abnormal Superman, outside the clay season he is a mere human.
 
I think for the Big 3 the season is pretty much finished after the US Open. That leaves the players from #4-8 who see their chance at the WTF and give everything they have to win it. And let’s be honest, every non-Big-3 winner will be called a “surprise winner”. But one of those has to win then of course. And remember all those players often struggle to even reach the last 8 in full-size tournaments. So not having those obstacles and “only” having to beat slightly disinterested Big 3 players (instead of first going through the draw AND then having to beat motivated top players) makes it easier for sure.

Also they are always different players of course. Not one second tier player has dominated the WTF, but it always was another one. And they also can lose a match on their way to the title. So you see, there are many reasons.
 
Sunny014 said:
Technically nobody can be greater than other person by behind him in some area.

Neither Federer nor Djkovic can claim that they are better than Nadal because Nadal is better than them on Clay in a way they never can be.
Vice Versa
Nadal can never claim that he is better than Federer/Djokovic in a million years because he is so far behind on HCs, Wimbledons, Weeks at 1, WTFs (0??...).
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But I venture to say Nadal has more deficiencies & shortcomings in his record! Clay's his only real home court while like you posted Federer & Djokovic have excelled all over the place with multiple championships where Nadal isn't even competitive! An argument will inevitably be made concerning GOAT'dom regardless of our feelings on the subject! :sneaky:
 
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ChrisRF said:
I think for the Big 3 the season is pretty much finished after the US Open. That leaves the players from #4-8 who see their chance at the WTF and give everything they have to win it. And let’s be honest, every non-Big-3 winner will be called a “surprise winner”. But one of those has to win then of course. And remember all those players often struggle to even reach the last 8 in full-size tournaments. So not having those obstacles and “only” having to beat slightly disintereted Big 3 players (instead of first going through the draw AND then having to beat motivated top players) makes it easier for sure.

Also they are always different players of course. Not one second tier player has dominated the WTF, but it always was another one. And they also can lose a match on their way to the title. So you see, there are many reasons.
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IMO only Rafa feels that way of the Big 3! Fedovic have gone out of their way, probably to their detriment to seriously compete in the FALL and winter winning multiple YEC's and other tournaments as little as CHINA which is owned by Nole! There's been a difference in the effort put forth late in the season for years and Rafa's the only one that's truly wimped out "late" and hasn't seriously tried to remedy those deficiencies in his record even when playing well and confident! :sneaky:
 
Fiero425 said:
IMO only Rafa feels that way of the Big 3! Fedovic have gone out of their way, probably to their detriment to seriously compete in the FALL and winter winning multiple YEC's and other tournaments as little as CHINA which is owned by Nole! There's been a difference in the effort put forth late in the season for years and Rafa's the only one that's truly wimped out "late" and hasn't seriously tried to remedy those deficiencies in his record even when playing well and confident! :sneaky:
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Yes, I should have added "now". For Federer and Djokovic at some stages of their careers every tournament they entered mattered. I think Djokovic was more serious about Masters than any other top player (excluding Nadal on clay). And Federer always had his few special events where he gave everything, and that included the WTF.

However, right now it’s all about the Slam record and everything else is mainly about preparation. That’s why anything after the US Open and also for example the “Sunshine Double” hasn’t much value for them anymore.
 
Fiero425 said:
IMO only Rafa feels that way of the Big 3! Fedovic have gone out of their way, probably to their detriment to seriously compete in the FALL and winter winning multiple YEC's and other tournaments as little as CHINA which is owned by Nole! There's been a difference in the effort put forth late in the season for years and Rafa's the only one that's truly wimped out "late" and hasn't seriously tried to remedy those deficiencies in his record even when playing well and confident! :sneaky:
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Yes.
Rafa in his best year 2010 was beaten by Federer, then in his best Hard Court year when he even won Cincinnati he was beaten by Djokovic.
So the ship has sailed for him......
Nadal's fanatics are sour because Federer has 6, Novak has 5, Sampras has 5 and Nadal 0.
 
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Has to be the worst argument/logic to have been used to show a tournament is insignificant.
 
RF-18 said:
Sampras never won RG, instead Kafelnikov, etc did. What a joke of a tournament. Also Wawrinka won, but not Sampras. What does it tell us?
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You need luck as well as skill! Sampras had a good run or 2 in Paris that ended with the inevitable champions taking him out! One year he beat 2 past FO champs, but went down to Kafelnikov in '96 SF! As good as Vilas was, he only won his 1 FO title when Borg skipped the event in '77 to prepare for his defense of Wimbledon! There was only a week between the tourneys back then! We all know how Fed got his lone win! That's why you keep going back; eventually you get another chance, but I truly believe Rafa sometimes doesn't give forth full effort after the USO! He's usually done; in '09 actually losing all 3 of his RR matches @ YEC! Davydenko of all people took the final! That was Rafa's chance, but I believe fans were commiserating with him over his parent's break-up! :rolleyes:
 
I mean the only reason you are seeing such results is because it is the last tournament in the schedule and Big 3 is getting older. Same underlying cause as the number of upsets you see in USO and Shanghai/Paris. Khachanov and Sock won Paris, for god's sake.
 
It's a Bo3 tournament, whe the youngsters have already broken through. Where they seem to still need a step is in Bo5.

Fiero425 said:
But I venture to say Nadal has more deficiencies & shortcomings in his record! Clay's his only real home court while like you posted Federer & Djokovic have excelled all over the place with multiple championships where Nadal isn't even competitive! An argument will inevitably be made concerning GOAT'dom regardless of our feelings on the subject! :sneaky:
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Well, Nadal won most USO in the decade (has won 4 in 10 years, being 1 short of the overall record. Pretty impressive, since he didn't play 2 editions, retired in 1 injured and 2 were during his 2 years slump).
He played several finals at AO, playing 2 tight 5 setters (2012 and 2017). In 2019 he got massacred in the final, but got there without losing any set.
Has 2 Wimbledons, having played 5+1 finals overall. In 2018 was very close to winning it, and in 2019 he was on the brink of pushing Federer to a 5th set.
Has won several masters1000 on hard, and where he didn't win has reached the final.
His worst tournament is the WTF, but even there he has played 2 finals and last year was really close to beating the winner of the tournament.

Are Federer and Djokovic better than Nadal there? Sure, ok. Have they been more successful? Other than Novak at the USO, irrefutably yes. But saying that Nadal isn't even competitive feels out of touch with reality.
 
End of a long season, best of three sets format and Big 3 are old, it all adds up to them being more vulnerable than before. Or Federer and Djokovic rather, Nadal has never been relevant there to begin with lol...
 
Yugram said:
Rome Masters is harder to win than this cheap crap called WTF. ;)
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I'm sure you think Djokovic struggled more against titans such as Koepfer and Ruud than Medvedev against Thiem and Nadal, but fortunately, you'll find few people on your side.
 
Yugram said:
An event, which should supposedly be won by the best of the best, has become a joke and indicates less than an average Masters title.

#Irrelevant
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You didn’t have to be so verbose in your trollery. The YEC has always been irrelevant to Nadal fans because Rafa has never managed to win it. And never will.

Why is a thread started about this irrelevant exo when it won’t be played for another 7 months?
 
Really need to wait like 10 years before calling those winners weak. Thiem back to back finals too btw.

Corretja & Davydenko won it, Wilander made 1 final and got slaughtered.

It's the pinnacle of the indoor season which currently only has 1 Masters (Paris) and a couple 500s. Given the points and money it absolutely remains big.
 
Let me give my opinion on subject...

- Most importantly Novak and Federer won loads of WTFs... They don't need any more WTFs...
- For Federer it's hard to win anyway... He can lose to most of wtf field... But, as I said, who cares, he has many already...
- Novak would certainly like to win at least one and equal Fed, but he doesn't need to brake his legs to do it... If title comes, it comes, he already has enough... It's end of season so Novak specially doesn't give him whole, just look at his loses last year's, he somehow let it go...
- Nadal doesn't win WTF simply because he can't... He has his good chances in the past, but missed those... It's not his favorite conditions obviously...
- Tsitsipas, Medvedev and Zverev are very good hard court players, who can play great tournaments as they did... They are young, and often has strength at season end... They took advantage of previously mentioned things which consider big 3...
- wtf isn't slam, obviously, but is 5th most important tournament in tennis...

So, sorry op, I consider you great and objective poster, but wtf is hole in Nadal resume... Quite a big hole, but not something that Nadal won't be able to live with...
 
beard said:
Let me give my opinion on subject...

- Most importantly Novak and Federer won loads of WTFs... They don't need any more WTFs...
- For Federer it's hard to win anyway... He can lose to most of wtf field... But, as I said, who cares, he has many already...
- Novak would certainly like to win at least one and equal Fed, but he doesn't need to brake his legs to do it... If title comes, it comes, he already has enough... It's end of season so Novak specially doesn't give him whole, just look at his loses last year's, he somehow let it go...
- Nadal doesn't win WTF simply because he can't... He has his good chances in the past, but missed those... It's not his favorite conditions obviously...
- Tsitsipas, Medvedev and Zverev are very good hard court players, who can play great tournaments as they did... They are young, and often has strength at season end... They took advantage of previously mentioned things which consider big 3...
- wtf isn't slam, obviously, but is 5th most important tournament in tennis...

So, sorry op, I consider you great and objective poster, but wtf is hole in Nadal resume... Quite a big hole, but not something that Nadal won't be able to live with...
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lol
 
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