WTF title: One Glaring Big Hole in Nadal's career

I don’t care about Nadal winning 19 slams. Yeah some of the trolls on here are insufferable, but I actually like Nadal, he’s a world class player and a humble man.

it won’t change my view on Federer being the greatest and best player ever, just not the mentally strongest.
You can think that if you want, but your arguments make no sense.
 

Drob

Professional
Tennis Channel commentary during Djoker and fed match. If you don't have the money for the subscription to rewatch it, then it is on you. Not me.

Once again, try reading and comprehending at the same time. He said they were not as big of deal. Never said they were not important.
Of course the Slams always have been a big deal. You are correct in the sense that they were not as big in the past, in that players did not see them as the single measuring stick. As recently as the 2019 Wimbledon finals coverage on ESPN, Chris Fowler said, "It used to be about a lot more than majors." (I think this is the comment you are referring to). I took down the quote and just pulled it up from my telephone. Fowler said the change toward higher emphasis on Slams came w Federer. Probably the biggest factor was Pistol Pete announcing he was gunning for Emerson's record of 12. I think that started the switch (more like a swivel) in focus among tennis fans, press, and so on.
 
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Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Of course the Slams always have been a big deal. But you are correct in the sense that there were not as big in the past, in that players did not see them as the single measuring stick. As recently as the 2019 Wimbledon finals coverage on ESPN, Chris Fowler said, "It used to be about a lot more than majors." I took down the quote and just pulled it up from my telephone. Fowler said the change toward higher emphasis on Slams came w Federer. Probably the biggest factor was Pistol Pete announcing he was gunning for Emerson's record of 12. I think that started the switch (more like a swivel) in focus among tennis fans, press, and so on.
Yep. The only thing I would add is that the Majors obsession started with Pete (as you correctly noted when he was gunning for the record of Emmo). The media took it from there, when Federer's meteoric rise happened (but Federer has always been aware of that storyline, so it is difficult to say that he didn't care about it).

:cool:
 

Raphael Nadal

Professional
Dimitrov's status hasn't changed one bit since winning the ATP Finals.
Similarly, Rafa's status wouldn't change if he won the ATP Finals.
But, the ATP Finals would become more credible if Rafa won it, so I can see why Federer/Djokovic fans are so obsessed with the idea of Rafa winning it.
As long as Rafa doesn't win the ATP Finals, Federer/Djokovic fans will feel like their guys achievements are undervalued....
Whereas its impossible to undervalue an Olympic Singles Gold Medal :)
 
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Boom-Boom

Hall of Fame
Dimitrov's status hasn't changed one bit since winning the ATP Finals.
Similarly, Rafa's status wouldn't change if he won the ATP Finals.
But, the ATP Finals would become more credible if Rafa won it, so I can see why Federer/Djokovic fans are so obsessed with the idea of Rafa winning it.
As long as Rafa doesn't win the ATP Finals, Federer/Djokovic fans will feel like their guys achievements are undervalued....
Whereas its impossible to undervalue an Olympic Singles Gold Medal :)
lol stop embarrassing yourself and go back studying tennis history

all Tier 1 ATG have won WTF except Nadal, Tier 2 for ever
 

JackGates

Hall of Fame
He hasn't managed to win the biggest indoor hard court title since he turned pro 18 years ago. He's not really a complete "whole package" player until he wins it.
For me, it's irrelevant, since Fed has 6 titles. It's 1 gold vs 6 titles, you would only have a point if we compare 1 WTF vs 1 gold. And Rafa has only two indoor titles, so 1 WTF title doesn't suddenly make his indoor record go away compared to Fed. Yes, RAfa alone is well rounded amazing, but not comparing him to Federer. But, Rafa has his clay dominance to compensate for some of the gap, but in my opinion, still not enough. But, I don't see it as a huge deal, because indoor titles aren't majors. But Nadal has what 5 grass finals 10 HC finals, still not such a huge hole as people think. I'm an expert in circular reasoning here and people do it against Nadal, somehow penalizing him because of too much clay success. Hey, if he had only 6 RG titles, he would look way more well rounded using this logic.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
i defended the Olympics on other occasions, but DJ crying is not a big argument.
team(nations) events tend to bring out the emotions.
i've seen a guy like Kyrgios getting emotional for 'the rest of the world'
and even non-patriotic me would feel something if my countrykids would cheer for me at the Olympics.
ofc this atmosphere still adds to the relevance of the event, but one shouldn't overrate it. getting emotional is too easy (for too many people)
and he's called Faker for a reason. :p:happydevil:
I was with you right up until the spoiler. ;)
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
Unsurprisingly I find myself in the middle of the road here.

I think WTF is a very important and prestigious event, but I think winning Miami, IW, and a few other non-slam events is more impressive, mostly due to the fact that players are so tired/injured by the time year end rolls around, you don't feel like the tournament is really showcasing the most "elite" tennis of the season. Similarly, it's not uncommon for one or several of the 5-8 guys to play with the "happy to be here" attitude.

Holding it on the same surface every year also undercuts the idea of it being a true year end spectacle. It's really just the end of the indoor season.

So, is it a gap on Nadal's resume? Of course. He's done everything else.
But to me it's the same as saying someone without a Monte Carlo title has a huge hole..yeah, it's a prestigious event with lots of $$ and points, but at the end of the day it's one of many big clay events. Not going to hold it against any ATG for not having it.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Unsurprisingly I find myself in the middle of the road here.

I think WTF is a very important and prestigious event, but I think winning Miami, IW, and a few other non-slam events is more impressive, mostly due to the fact that players are so tired/injured by the time year end rolls around, you don't feel like the tournament is really showcasing the most "elite" tennis of the season. Similarly, it's not uncommon for one or several of the 5-8 guys to play with the "happy to be here" attitude.

Holding it on the same surface every year also undercuts the idea of it being a true year end spectacle. It's really just the end of the indoor season.

So, is it a gap on Nadal's resume? Of course. He's done everything else.
But to me it's the same as saying someone without a Monte Carlo title has a huge hole..yeah, it's a prestigious event with lots of $$ and points, but at the end of the day it's one of many big clay events. Not going to hold it against any ATG for not having it.
Almost every tennis match in this edition has been a nail biter, even the blowouts. I don't think that it gets much more "impressive" than that. I also don't see the "happy to be there" attitude, even from Berrettini (he is not a freaking Gaudio, that is for sure).

As for the surface, exactly because it is that part of the season it makes the most sense to be on one. It is absurd to suggest that it should be rotated just because some players are not good enough to win it, and it doesn't diminish its significance because of it as some people seem to suggest.

I a kind of have to disagree on the comparison with MC as well. MC is as you say, just another clay court tournament ( an M1000, but a non mandatory event). WTF is the biggest indoor title, so the natural comparison should be with the biggest titles on every respective surface.

:cool:
 

Lew II

Hall of Fame
Federer has just 1 title between French Open, Rome and MonteCarlo, the three most prestigious clay events.

Nole doesn't have any hole. The Olympics is just once every 4 years.
 

ForehandRF

Professional
Federer has just 1 title between French Open, Rome and MonteCarlo, the three most prestigious clay events.

Nole doesn't have any hole. The Olympics is just once every 4 years.
Monte Carlo is not even mandatory but still, a win there would have been good.Federer has 2 Madrid titles and 4 Hamburg titles, which is not bad at all.The only problem is that he failed to win Rome.
 

Sephiroth

Professional
Federer needs to win Olympics Gold Singles medal in 2020 to be the complete package. Without it he isn't the complete package at all and it'll forever be a stain on his career.
 

Antonio Puente

Hall of Fame
If no WTF is a hole in Nadal's record, a 10-20 slam record vs. Nadal and Djoker is a black hole in Fed's record, one you can't escape from. If there were official round robin rules to goathood, this fact would bring an immediate death sentence for Fed's candidacy.

Nadal will likely finish with several more slams than Fed along with 10-15 more masters and a gold medal. WTF won't mean a damn thing and everyone knows it.

Hey, Fed, we have a deal for you. You can trade your WTFs for a few more slams to further distance yourself from Nadal.

Fed: Where the f&ck do I sign up?
 

JackGates

Hall of Fame
If no WTF is a hole in Nadal's record, a 10-20 slam record vs. Nadal and Djoker is a black hole in Fed's record, one you can't escape from. If there were official round robin rules to goathood, this fact would bring an immediate death sentence for Fed's candidacy.

Nadal will likely finish with several more slams than Fed along with 10-15 more masters and a gold medal. WTF won't mean a damn thing and everyone knows it.

Hey, Fed, we have a deal for you. You can trade your WTFs for a few more slams to further distance yourself from Nadal.

Fed: Where the f&ck do I sign up?
No it's not, because h2h doesn't count in titles, you just made that up. And even in MMA it doesn't count. We could argue Diaz won 2-0 vs Conor, but nobody will say Diaz is on Conor's level. I remember Chael Sonnen almost beating Silva and nobody is saying he is close to his level. So not even in your stupid MMA logic, this doesn't work. And Khabib is like Nadal, he dominates one "surface", but he is not considered the goat, because GSP defended multiple titles across different divisions.

So, if you want to use MMA logic, fine, but even under this logic GSP is still considered the goat even when Khabib is undefeated. Tell, me, if you want to use MMA h2h logic, then also use that you need to DEFEND TITLES!
 

40L0VE

Rookie
I don’t agree with the atp moving to zero points. I feel around 1250 points is warranted. Not as high as the wtf but more than a masters 1000
This will always be a point of controversy between tennis fans. When the ATP, the governing body of professional mens tennis, has the power to award an event zero points and has done so in the case of Olympic mens tennis it's saying something about how little clout Olympic mens tennis has in the tennis world.
 

JackGates

Hall of Fame
Federer needs to win Olympics Gold Singles medal in 2020 to be the complete package. Without it he isn't the complete package at all and it'll forever be a stain on his career.
Yes, of course Fed has stains, nobody is perfect, but the argument is not who is perfect, but who has the least stains and Federer is.
But 6 WTF vs 1 gold is not the same, it's not like Fed only has 1 WTF title. You should do the math 6 vs 1 is not the same. Also you argue that WTF is every year, well that gives Nadal even more chances to win it, so it's even bigger gap that he has 0, why do you think WTF being once a year helps Nadal? It makes it worse.
 

JackGates

Hall of Fame
No cup-cake draws at WTF.
Weak era Fed and past prime Nole and rubbish next gen? It's weak draws even at WTF and Rafa still can't win, that's why it's said. If he lost 6 times in finals vs Nole, sure then I would say Nadal is great and wouldn't mind if he didn't win, but his indoor record is terrible.
 

40L0VE

Rookie
Almost every ATG since Jimmy Connors in 1977 has won the end-of-year champions(WTF by it's current name) at least once in their careers. From 1977 onwards ATG winners have been Connors, McEnroe, Borg, Lendl, Becker, Edberg, Agassi, Sampras, Federer, Djokovic. This list of players between them have practically dominated mens tennis since 1977.

Off the top of my head the multislam winners/ATGs who haven't won it from 1977 onwards are Wilander, Courier and Nadal. Don't delude yourselves into thinking Nadal doesn't want to be amongst such an illustrious list of former WTF champions. All ATGs since '77 have done it with 3, by my count, notable exceptions.
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
The fact that someone with an ounce of knowledge will determine grass and clay as the two sole "extreme ends" of the game and will disregard indoors completely makes me go
Awww, poor wittle Tennis Hands. Things that Indoor Tennis is the true mark of a champion. Sterile conditions with a surface where the ball usually bounces true every time is the ultimate test. LOL.

Still our good friend Tennis Hands would much rather win his Indoor HC Tennis Tournaments that multiple titles at Wimbledon and Roland Garros. Makes his beloved Rog. look soo much better that way.

And the fact that that fan continues to repeat the "MALE GOAT" mantra makes me go:
The MALE GOAT Laver probably played ten times as much tennis on Indoor Courts during his Pro. Career in the 1960s than your old man Federer has since. And when he returned from the Wilderness, he immediately won his second GRAND SLAM. Go Figure!
 

Xemi666

Professional
Almost every ATG since Jimmy Connors in 1977 has won the end-of-year champions(WTF by it's current name) at least once in their careers. From 1977 onwards ATG winners have been Connors, McEnroe, Borg, Lendl, Becker, Edberg, Agassi, Sampras, Federer, Djokovic. This list of players between them have practically dominated mens tennis since 1977.

Off the top of my head the multislam winners/ATGs who haven't won it from 1977 onwards are Wilander, Courier and Nadal. Don't delude yourselves into thinking Nadal doesn't want to be amongst such an illustrious list of former WTF champions. All ATGs since '77 have done it with 3, by my count, notable exceptions.
Yes, I'm sure Nadal is hugely disappointed with his 2 slam-season and would gladly trade a couple RGs for the WTF... not.

Zverev, Thiem and Tsitsipas battling it out for the most important title of the season, right guys? :-D8-B
 

JaoSousa

Rookie
The idea that the slams weren't as big a deal until the mid-80s is one of the most laughable things I've ever heard. You are hiding behind the idea that Jim Courier said it.

If you make an incredible claim it is up to you to provide the evidence to back it up, not run away when challenged to prove it.

If you can't back up your claim you'll have proved you're telling lies about firmer pros on the forum -which really is trolling.
Pretty sure he's not the one who ran away
 

40L0VE

Rookie
Yes, I'm sure Nadal is hugely disappointed with his 2 slam-season and would gladly trade a couple RGs for the WTF... not.

Zverev, Thiem and Tsitsipas battling it out for the most important title of the season, right guys? :-D8-B
I'm saying the WTF is one of the top titles which almost all ATGs have won with notable exceptions. However it's you speculating, not me, you speculating Nadal would rather trade x for y.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I would have Olympics on same level as masters so would compare it to Fed missing MC, Nadal missing Miami etc. It’s too random (4 years) and played on different surfaces for it to be a proper hole in the CV.
That's it's strength. All the best tournaments are played on different surfaces. One of Nadal's chief complaints about the WTF is that it never rotates surfaces and he is stuck with trying to win it on hardcourt instead of having a chance on his beloved clay.
 

steelcity32

Rookie
He played bravely this year to have a 2-1 record and secure #1. There's almost no way he goes 3-0 without a hiccup to guarantee semis on his worst surface/condition combo, so it's obvious why he hasn't had 5 straight wins there.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
He hasn't managed to win the biggest indoor hard court title since he turned pro 18 years ago. He's not really a complete "whole package" player until he wins it.
He's only won one indoor title in his career.:eek: GOAT credentials destroyed by this and RG imbalance.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Awww, poor wittle Tennis Hands. Things that Indoor Tennis is the true mark of a champion. Sterile conditions with a surface where the ball usually bounces true every time is the ultimate test. LOL.

Still our good friend Tennis Hands would much rather win his Indoor HC Tennis Tournaments that multiple titles at Wimbledon and Roland Garros. Makes his beloved Rog. look soo much better that way.



The MALE GOAT Laver probably played ten times as much tennis on Indoor Courts during his Pro. Career in the 1960s than your old man Federer has since. And when he returned from the Wilderness, he immediately won his second GRAND SLAM. Go Figure!
"Sterile conditions". I guess that it is just another way of calling different conditions such, eh? Poor you, and to think that you appreciate Laver for his completeness. :rolleyes:

Your trollish approach towards what is being said tells me that your "appreciation" for tennis might not be as grounded in the game as you would like to present.

I am curious to know what is it that you call "wilderness".

:cool:
 

ledwix

Hall of Fame
I'd be over the moon if I were a Nadal fan right now. 19 slams? FIVE years at number one? Oldest year-end number one ever despite supposedly being condemned to a short career due to clay court specialization? Next year, he's golden. There's almost no way he doesn't hold the slam record at some point, which Fed fans, as well as Sampras, have pointed to always as the most important record in tennis.

I know it sounds strange bashing a "37.9-year-old," but 40-15 is more of a glaring hole in Federer's career than WTF is in Nadal's career. I won't get over 40-15 until Federer wins another slam title, which just might be never.
 

ForehandRF

Professional
I'd be over the moon if I were a Nadal fan right now. 19 slams? FIVE years at number one? Oldest year-end number one ever despite supposedly being condemned to a short career due to clay court specialization? Next year, he's golden. There's almost no way he doesn't hold the slam record at some point, which Fed fans, as well as Sampras, have pointed to always as the most important record in tennis.

I know it sounds strange bashing a "37.9-year-old," but 40-15 is more of a glaring hole in Federer's career than WTF is in Nadal's career. I won't get over 40-15 until Federer wins another slam title, which just might be never.
Why over the moon man ? You won't get paid a single dollar and Rafa won't even know who you are.I think people are sometimes too emotionally involved in those players they support.They have little impact in our lives if we think about it :)
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
There's almost no way he doesn't hold the slam record at some point, which Fed fans, as well as Sampras, have pointed to always as the most important record in tennis.
Where did Sampras say that Majors Count was the most important record?

Sampras said this ...


Oh. So perhaps because Sampras thinks no one will ever achieve Laver's record, they have to settle for chasing Major Titles. Hmmm, so that means Laver IS the GOAT because he holds a record that no other player will ever achieve !

Also raises an interesting conundrum ... Would you rather win 20 individual Major Titles, or 15 Major Titles that comprise three GRAND SLAMS ?
 

UnderratedSlam

Hall of Fame
Dude, it is time for you to take a break and scurry on out till the AO. You clearly don't like the WTF and are clearly trolling.

Never said he said they were not important either. I said he said they were not as big of a deal as they are now. Said many did not play at the AO, and said the goal has always been to be the number one player.
AO wasn't as relevant, but the other three were.
 

DSH

Hall of Fame
WTF is more near in importance and prestige to the Masters 1000 than to the Big4.
Is not deabatable, really.
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Wtf is much more important for tennis legacy than olympics and masters. Federer, Djok, Sampras all won it 5 or 6 times, any other ATG won it at least once, except Wilander.

The fact that Nadal, who qualified 15 times in row, could not win it even once!!!! Is a huge hole in his resume.
 
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