WTT nationals 4.0 singles

bubbatennis

Rookie
I recently caught the 4.0 WTT nationals in Palm springs and recorded some of the matches. This is the singles match.


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Turbo-87

Legend
Some nice points and some long rallies. Those guys look a lot better than 4.0 players I see in my area for sure. I realize this is nationals and I should expect that. :)
 
Guy in the blue has BIG strokes, but is no match for the ultimate chop - push - counterpunch fest across the net. Bravo
 

dode

Rookie
WTT 4.0 doesn't require the players to be at level. It just requires the top 2 women and the top 2 men to average the level they are playing at. For example, you could have a 4.5 and a 3.5 man and a 4.5 and a 3.5 woman. You can end up with all sorts of oddball matchups. For example if say in a 4.0 league you had a team with all 4.5 men and all 3.5 women playing against a team of all 4.5 women and 3.5 men. It can make for some really lopsided scores, but WTT is all about getting games and not necessarily wins and losses.

John
 

ohplease

Professional
Some nice points and some long rallies. Those guys look a lot better than 4.0 players I see in my area for sure. I realize this is nationals and I should expect that. :)
Word. The guy in blue can easily play 4.5. That said, the guy in orange is just toying with his food. Orange spends most of the time hitting half, sometimes three-quarter pace and drawing out errors. The tell though is when orange wants to crack one, he does so essentially at will - and off of balls that lots of 4.0s or 4.5s would have needed to roll back to reset the point (see the point at 10:31, especially - a winner off that ball from that position is a total scam. The initial attacking forehand at 3:58 also looks way too routine for him).

Orange gives off the vibe of a teaching pro or high level player slumming at a level they shouldn't be playing. And that's against a player that's clearly no slouch, too.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Both of these guys would tough as nails at the 4.0 level, and at first I thought I would be surprised if they are actually rated 4.0 without some degree of rating management. However, after watching a while, you see that blue shirt has a strong forehand and backhand, but little variety in terms of slice, drop shots, and moving the opponent around. Orange shirt probably is limited by movement. Neither have a particularly strong serve. I would rate them both somewhere in the very high 4.0 (if they are trying to sandbag) to mid 4.5 range.
 
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jmc3367

Rookie
all around they look like super strong 4.0 maybe 4.5. serves did not look like 4.5. Neither came to the net but they were both hitting some sharp strokes and some really deep moon balls so coming to the net may have been harder than it looked. I am a decent 4.0 and I don't think I could beat either of them
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
I recently caught the 4.0 WTT nationals in Palm springs and recorded some of the matches. This is the singles match.


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Some solid 4.0+ play in there with some definite 4.0 hitting errors. Great play overall though. Would be a fun match to have been in.
 

bubbatennis

Rookie
Word. The guy in blue can easily play 4.5. That said, the guy in orange is just toying with his food. Orange spends most of the time hitting half, sometimes three-quarter pace and drawing out errors. The tell though is when orange wants to crack one, he does so essentially at will - and off of balls that lots of 4.0s or 4.5s would have needed to roll back to reset the point (see the point at 10:31, especially - a winner off that ball from that position is a total scam. The initial attacking forehand at 3:58 also looks way too routine for him).

Orange gives off the vibe of a teaching pro or high level player slumming at a level they shouldn't be playing. And that's against a player that's clearly no slouch, too.
You are spot on sir

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Some killer baseline strokes by both guys.
But, from the outset, it was obvious that Orange is going to crush the blue maniac.

Good example of how 4.0 serving is much slower than 3.5 serving.
The 4.0 goes for reliability, while the 3.5 maniac goes for power glory.

Notice how neither player does the silly split step for return of serve.
This is why they are never late, and are crushing ROS.

At 1:18 & 1:58, he stands and watches his ball, instead of following it in.
Good to see better players do the same mistakes as 3.5

2:12. Look at how softly he hits the approach shot.
A 3.5 would have pulverized that ball.

2:25
My D1 coach would say poor shot selection.
Should have been a defensive lob to get back into position.
Opponent flubbed the drop shot, but had the entire court to work with.
Blue got lucky here.

3:56
Topspin makes the ball go right into the net.

5:02
Stupid low % shot. See above.

9:52
Nice defensive shot by orange.

10:42
What an awesome point!
 
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What a great video. Blue beat himself with his overhitting & poor shot selection.
I would much rather play an undisciplined young player than a smart older player.
Always fear older players, they know how to play smart.
Orange is a great example to any rec player who wants to win matches.
 

OrangePower

Legend
At the outset, it is obvious to me that Orange is going to crush the blue maniac.

Good example of how 4.0 serving is much slower than 3.5 serving.
The 4.0 goes for reliability, while the 3.5 maniac goes for power glory.
I have no idea how WTT ratings work, but if we're talking USTA rating, I would guess both of these guys are 4.5s. Orange was probably a 5.0 at some point but has lost some quickness although he makes up for it with great anticipation. Blue has the shots but should be constructing the points better.
If these are really a 4.0 and a 3.5 then I need to appeal down pronto :)
 

bubbatennis

Rookie
Just to clarify the guy in orange is USTA rated 5.0. He hasn't been playing much since he started work but he practices with juniors when he does play.

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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Notice how neither player does the silly split step for return of serve.
This is why they are never late, and are crushing ROS.
They are never late because the serves aren't going very fast.

Not sure if they would change that if they did face a fast serve or whether they simply never learned to split.

Notice how the following players split step for the return: Federer, Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Dimitrov, Raonic... [Goffin and Brown have almost imperceptible split steps; if you have their reaction time, you can get away with not splitting at 4.0]

And it's not just them: watch Futures, Challengers, collegiates, juniors, etc: the vast majority split step and not just on the return but every time their opponent strikes the ball. I would have to think the reason is because the split step serves an important function.
 

stevenymets

New User
So many interesting observations here. First off, these guys are very good players, as to be expected in a match like this. Secondly, a bit surprised to hear that orange was a 5.0, great player, but just the way he generates his strokes, not necessarily limiting at a lower level but I would think it tough at the 5.0 level. Third, something to remember, our eyes play tricks on us often while we are watching video, we are so accustomed to watching world class players on tv and video, that when we see something that falls short of that I think we might underestimate what is really happening. Example, someone posted in another thread on a court level view of a seniors match between Roddick and Blake that he has seen 3.5s and 4.0s hit as hard and with as much spin, it is easy to misconstrue things through video when you don’t have all of the auditory queues that come from on court Mics, camera angles and world class players we are accustomed to. My long winded point, these guys are incredibly good for 4.0, guy in blue’s ground strokes look like 5.0s to me based on my admittedly rather limited experience playing 5.0s. Lastly, these guys are both great servers, but again, as stated previously, they’re not huge servers, but what they appear to be are guys, especially on their serves, that really value spin over pace. Their serves are consistent, no double fault fits, and they have good command on their serves. They use it to effectively start the point. These guys use spin on all shots to effectively execute their strategy, guys at lower levels, even within 4.0, might have a strategy but lack the consistency to execute like these guys do. Excellent players.
 

stevenymets

New User
So many interesting observations here. First off, these guys are very good players, as to be expected in a match like this. Secondly, a bit surprised to hear that orange was a 5.0, great player, but just the way he generates his strokes, not necessarily limiting at a lower level but I would think it tough at the 5.0 level. Third, something to remember, our eyes play tricks on us often while we are watching video, we are so accustomed to watching world class players on tv and video, that when we see something that falls short of that I think we might underestimate what is really happening. Example, someone posted in another thread on a court level view of a seniors match between Roddick and Blake that he has seen 3.5s and 4.0s hit as hard and with as much spin, it is easy to misconstrue things through video when you don’t have all of the auditory queues that come from on court Mics, camera angles and world class players we are accustomed to. My long winded point, these guys are incredibly good for 4.0, guy in blue’s ground strokes look like 5.0s to me based on my admittedly rather limited experience playing 5.0s. Lastly, these guys are both great servers, but again, as stated previously, they’re not huge servers, but what they appear to be are guys, especially on their serves, that really value spin over pace. Their serves are consistent, no double fault fits, and they have good command on their serves. They use it to effectively start the point. These guys use spin on all shots to effectively execute their strategy, guys at lower levels, even within 4.0, might have a strategy but lack the consistency to execute like these guys do. Excellent players.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Not surprised that orange player used to be 5.0 He can crush the ball. He might not have the fitness. His preparation on both FH and BH wing is smooth, fast, and consistent.
 

chb

New User
Had the rating not been in the video (or the title of this thread), I'd guess both were 4.5 or 5.0 players. Sure, there were some errors and poor shot selection, but that happens even at high level 4.5 and 5.0.

edit - Watched more of the video. Maybe 4.5, not 5.0.
 
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