I posted a kick serve question this past summer, but have more hitting around and haven't had time to practice. Been practicing this serve a whole lot. I'm practiced a variety of different tosses + ways to serve, I get all sorts of bounces, for the most part, it's kicking around shoulder level for a 5 10 player in 40+- degree weather, or a bit lower (it sinks back down i think when it reaches baseline, or is just starting to, most of my kicks don't hit the back fence) Soooo my question is. 1. is the "hitting up" "stay sideways more" more of an image thing? when I chnage between a hard flatter forehand and a hard topspin forehand, I notice maybe.. unconsciously i get a BIT more shoulder rotation, it's barely noticable on my flat/hard drives, I THINK (was swinging a racquet in my room) 2. if not 1, am i really tossing/launching/hitting the ball in a way that's more like brushing the ball "sideways" yet up due to an arched back? I tried the method FYB is teaching both ball tosses, one with body chasing in, the other with ball toss more in line with my head. Then I tried arming it a bit like a flat serve but a bit of an arming movement.. I guess? sideways? Then I tried just telling myself "omfg just swing up, it's not so hard, screw the 'hit up' 'hold shoulder rotation', just hit and swing up in the most comfortable way possible" then with all the methods listed + using 2 ball tosses for each one. I added on 1. forcing the pronation a lot 2. forcing it another way 3. a bit of a nudge, not really pronation but as your arm lags behind on the racquet drop, u nudge ur arm a bit for that bit of extra arm accelration, kind of like a little muscle movement you do when your arm is about to sling shot forward on a baseball pitch 4. totally loose arm/body but i just pretty much jump straight up, this takes care of the "opening shoulders too soon" problem if there is any I am totally confused as I get kicks with all of them, some more consistent than others, other I have the best kicks once in a while as in compared to another way having more consistent but lesser kicks. My kick serves are in no way solid and I'm trying to figure out what I should do. The results are too sporadic to make any solid conclusion of which way is better for me.