Yet another "wrist snap" on serve question...

gzhpcu

Professional
I have looked at the archives on the wrist snap while serving. Forgetting the term, which seems to be contested: when after impact you want your racket pointing downwards ("wrist snap") and outwards (pronation), is all you need to achieve this just the right grip (continental or eastern backhand) and a loose wrist? Then everything occurs naturally?

Just like cracking a whip?
 

gzhpcu

Professional
BTW: I looked at a number of video clips on some of the top players serving, and noticed that Agassi has "wrist snap" but no pronation. So would this mean he has a forehand grip on the serve?
 

alan-n

Professional
Agassi isn't one to model your serve after if you looking at any pro video.... He muscles his serves quite a bit. As for pronation, yes he does... what looks like a "wrist snap" is just the momentum and weight of the racquet. If you want model your serve after Agassi go ahead, if you want to model his volleys go right ahead also...
 

gzhpcu

Professional
No, I like Federer's serve to model after. I only mentioned Agassi, because looking at a video clip on tennisone, I saw that his racket head does not turn outwards after impact.
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
gzhpcu said:
No, I like Federer's serve to model after. I only mentioned Agassi, because looking at a video clip on tennisone, I saw that his racket head does not turn outwards after impact.

I looked at about 5 SIDE clips of Agassi's 1st serve at:

http://www.tennisplayer.net

Same for Federer.

While it can be said that Agassi's wrist breaks more than Federer's during the "scratching the back" interval, at contact and after it the forearm and racket handle/grip are pretty much in the same line, which indicates to me a lack of wrist snap (at least to a large extent). For a "wrist snap" you would see after contact the racket handle breaking more towards the ground than the forearm. I did not see that.

There's some movement in the wrist (in the sense of straightening it) when attacking the ball (the racket goes to the ball from the "backscratch"), but that's only natural. Even Fed has that, but for reasons outlined in the above, less than Agassi.

And he definitely pronates actively. No question there.
 

tom-selleck

Professional
is there a good article out there on this pronation?? i keep seeing reference to it, but little definition of it other than the most simple terms (which is probably all you can do, but i think pictures or video would really help alot of people).
 

gzhpcu

Professional
I'll try and look, but essentially when your racket comes towards the ball, the edge of the racket is pointing towards the ball. As you pronate, your forearm turns clockwise, so that the racket face is positioned correctly at impact. After impact, the forearm continues turning clockwise, so that the face of the racket is now turned towards the outside.
 

tom-selleck

Professional
so pronation is the opposite direction of a baseball pitcher throwing a curve ball......... the baseball pitcher suppinates........ do i not want to suppinate to put alot of topspin on the ball? i.e. come over 1 or 2 pm as someone said.

trivial note: pronation for baseball pitcher might be screwball............ but that will probably just confuse things.
 

gzhpcu

Professional
The arm motion on the serve when hitting the ball is always various degrees of inside -out to my knowledge.
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
gzhpcu said:
I'll try and look, but essentially when your racket comes towards the ball, the edge of the racket is pointing towards the ball. As you pronate, your forearm turns clockwise, so that the racket face is positioned correctly at impact. After impact, the forearm continues turning clockwise, so that the face of the racket is now turned towards the outside.

I am not sure how you could consider that as being clockwise, but this is wrong.

In order to get pronation, your arm must rotate as per unscrewing a bulb, or as per making the palm to rotate away from you, and not towards you.

Or checking your watch on your serving arm.

To me, this means anticlockwise.

The rest or your comments here are correct though.
 

gzhpcu

Professional
Marius_Hancu said:
I told you what I saw. You don't agree, fine with me.

Just my opinion. Looking at the two, I thought that Agassi was not pronating. You might have seen other pictures where he does.
 

tom-selleck

Professional
all this counter and anti-counter clockwise.... gets very confusing especially when you are looking at your hand from different angles.... and then some of us are left-handed... so having to transpose something confusing.

i think your hand goes from judo chop position to waving at someone and then keeps going on. ... or for right handed person, palm faces left, then down then towards to right facing.....

not sure how to do topspin serve like this though.
 

alan-n

Professional
If Agassi didn't pronate, he wouldn't be able to hit the ball with the grip. His service motion like his volley is ugly... waste too much energy with his stiff arms / wrist.
 

fastdunn

Legend
It takes time to master using pronation in various serves, IMHO.
To me, it works like a gear box. You're adding one more rotation via pronation.

It's all about more swing speed. You use all possible angular rotation you can make with your body for a maximum swing speed.

There's a break down of contributions from all part of your body to the swing speed of serving including "hand flexing" and "pronation :

http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/212/

About 70% of swing speed come from arm only, suprising ?
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
tom-selleck said:
all this counter and anti-counter clockwise.... gets very confusing especially when you are looking at your hand from different angles....

OK, another take: hold your hands horizontally extended in front of your eyes, palms down.

Now rotate the forearms in order for the thumbs to move towards the ground. That's pronation. Conterclockwise on your right hand, clockwise on your left as you look along the arms.
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
gzhpcu said:
Just my opinion. Looking at the two, I thought that Agassi was not pronating. You might have seen other pictures where he does.

I have to say that in your pics he seems to pronate just barely. Thus indeed those are not supporting the pronation idea with him. But I looked at 5 other pics, all side views, and was convinced he's using it quite well.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
fastdunn said:
It takes time to master using pronation in various serves, IMHO.
To me, it works like a gear box. You're adding one more rotation via pronation.

It's all about more swing speed. You use all possible angular rotation you can make with your body for a maximum swing speed.

There's a break down of contributions from all part of your body to the swing speed of serving including "hand flexing" and "pronation :

http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/212/

About 70% of swing speed come from arm only, suprising ?

I think your reading into things. To generate arm speed the other elements have to contribute. Also, no mention of shoulder rotation? Or is that the trunk they are referring to? Shoulder rotation is HUGE!

Breaking elements are also important to sling the next element faster. The soource of power gets sent from the legs and the ground. It is also why it contribute the least in speed. It is the power gear while the wrist is the tiny fast gear that gets going from the efforts of the slower more powerful gears.

Remember the wave write-up I did. Power is generated from pressure which goes up the kinetic chain. All the kinetic chain is is a series of contracting and relaxing muscles that generate enough pressure (not too much in one spot to short-circuit or dam up the transfer of electrical energy) to transfer power through the body.

Here is a portion of the article to consider when interpreting the numbers which I find to be true:

"Coaches must be careful in interpreting the percentage contributions above as they refer to contributions to racket-speed at impact. For instance, an effective leg action actually drives the racket away from the ball but in doing so prepares the racket for the drive to the ball. It is important to understand that all the body movements are needed to produce an effective service action. The sequence above does however, highlight the need to train the muscles involved in, and that provide for, rotation at the shoulder."
 
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