'Young' Djokovic vs 'old' Federer....higher level of play

[Rosstour]

I would say this for 2014-15 "old" Federer, but not for the "new" Federer of early 2017 who was clearly better.

Fed was actually very good in 2014, 2015, and first-half 2016 before the injury. If he hadn't gone down in the US'14 SFs, he might have 19 Slams now. As it is, he reached 2 SFs and 1 F in 2014, then 1 QF and two Fs in 2015...followed by 2 SFs in 2 attempts in 2016. That is very consistent.

His only really 'bad/old' year was 2013, even in 2011 he reached 1 QF/2 SF/1 F.

I think what's apparent is that he made some big adjustments on the fly after 2013, and his results over the next 3 years were better...and then being able to actually rest for 6 months seems to have allowed those changes to really take their full effect.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Fed was actually very good in 2014, 2015, and first-half 2016 before the injury. If he hadn't gone down in the US'14 SFs, he might have 19 Slams now. As it is, he reached 2 SFs and 1 F in 2014, then 1 QF and two Fs in 2015...followed by 2 SFs in 2 attempts in 2016. That is very consistent.

His only really 'bad/old' year was 2013, even in 2011 he reached 1 QF/2 SF/1 F.

I think what's apparent is that he made some big adjustments on the fly after 2013, and his results over the next 3 years were better...and then being able to actually rest for 6 months seems to have allowed those changes to really take their full effect.

Slam-wise, Federer was only really great at Wim '15 - AO '16 and Djokovic did well to stop him (still that USO choke is one huge shiet). He did make the SF of AO and USO '14, but was not too good there, profiting from opponents underperforming (Tsonga, Backray, Chokefils). You don't have to play ATG level to make a Slam semi.

 

[Rosstour]

You don't have to play ATG level to make a Slam semi.

Of course, and that's a separate argument, I'm just saying that Fed has really only had one or two years where he looked 'bad' and the period from 2014-16 was consistent enough to draw a pretty good picture.

I wonder if he really got better in 2017 or if he's just at 2014+ level and everyone else has dropped off?

 

[mike danny]

Of course, and that's a separate argument, I'm just saying that Fed has really only had one or two years where he looked 'bad' and the period from 2014-16 was consistent enough to draw a pretty good picture.

I wonder if he really got better in 2017 or if he's just at 2014+ level and everyone else has dropped off?

Only in injury ridden years did Fed fail to reach a slam final: 2013 and 2016. When healthy, he has been virtually a lock for a at least 1 slam final.

It's also interesting that Fed has been a lock for a slam semi regardless of his form.

 

[metsman]

I would say this for 2014-15 "old" Federer, but not for the "new" Federer of early 2017 who was clearly better. The question is if he can maintain this level for a whole year or longer.

I don't think 2017 AO Federer would beat 2008 AO Djokovic.

 

[KINGROGER]

Slam-wise, Federer was only really great at Wim '15 - AO '16 and Djokovic did well to stop him (still that USO choke is one huge shiet). He did make the SF of AO and USO '14, but was not too good there, profiting from opponents underperforming (Tsonga, Backray, Chokefils). You don't have to play ATG level to make a Slam semi.

And Wimbledon 2014 which I rate as higher than 2015 due to better ground game & serve.

2014 USO was the weakest one I think. 2014 AO he was good at until Nadal easily dismantled his S&V tactics.

 

[Gary Duane]

There could be some credence to this. He was an extremely good clay courter but never stood a chance with Nadal in his way. 2009 might have been a missed opportunity for him and one which Federer grabbed with both arms.

I think it's more severe.

Nadal never lost a match to Novak on clay until 2011.

Those losses were all at either M1000s or at RG except for an additional loss, on clay, in Davis Cup.

He finally scored two wins in 2011, the year I personally think was Novak's best year.

Then starting in 2012 and through 2014 Nadal once again won 5/7 matches on clay, including three losses in a row at RG.

It seems to me that for the most part Nadal simply closed the door on clay. It's no mystery why Novak put his energy into winning at places like the AO, and the spring HC season has been his fortress, just as RG and the clay season has been Nadal's.

 

[Gary Duane]

I don't think 2017 AO Federer would beat 2008 AO Djokovic.

Aren't you over-rating Djokovic in 2008? He had 12 losses on HCs that year, and a 78% match average. That's not exactly stellar.

Even in the spring HC season he lost 4 times and only had an 80% match record.

He won over Federer the first year that Federer was quite obviously very vulnerable. 2008 was statistically a bad year for Federer.

I'm just not that impressed with Djokovic in 2008. I don't think it is at clear that he was playing at a higher level that year than Federer was playing this year, and I see no evidence that Federer that year was as strong as he was this year.

 

[metsman]

Aren't you over-rating Djokovic in 2008? He had 12 losses on HCs that year, and a 78% match average. That's not exactly stellar.

Even in the spring HC season he lost 4 times and only had an 80% match record.

He won over Federer the first year that Federer was quite obviously very vulnerable. 2008 was statistically a bad year for Federer.

I'm just not that impressed with Djokovic in 2008. I don't think it is at clear that he was playing at a higher level that year than Federer was playing this year, and I see no evidence that Federer that year was as strong as he was this year.

I'm talking about his form at the AO. How is his record outside the AO relevant to his form IN THE AO. Federer sucked on outdoor hard in 2010 after the AO, I supposed that means he sucked at the AO as well. Oh yeah he also had bad losses in the spring masters in 07 and 09, wow he really must have sucked at the AO those years too. Also had two losses in the spring of 2004, another mediocre AO run I suppose. That's some Meles logic right there.

Djokovic's level at 08 AO, 08 IW, and 07 Miami on the whole were better than Federer's level at the same tournaments this year.

 

[Gary Duane]

Young djoker had most of the game except for the serve, but was weaker mentally in belief, big points and was prone to give up. It was after the 2010 uso sf win over fed that he really got the belief and took off. Then in 2014 his improved serve put him on a completely different level from the rest of the field.

Old fed was more consistent and experienced. When not injured he did very well except on clay against everyone but djokovic at the big matches. He even dominated murray at times.

So it's a bit of a hard comparison given the different factors.

At not time did Djokovic ever win more than 32% of his return game until 2011, and that was a high in 2010.

2010 was barely over his career average by a tiny bit. Every year after 2011 he has been above that or WAY above that, except for this year.

So no, it's not just about his serve.

And 2014 is not the year his serve improved. It was 2011, and it went up 6% in terms of winning games from 2010.

Night and day...

 

[HailDjokovic]

At not time did Djokovic ever win more than 32% of his return game until 2011, and that was a high in 2010.

2010 was barely over his career average by a tiny bit. Every year after 2011 he has been above that or WAY above that, except for this year.

So no, it's not just about his serve.

And 2014 is not the year his serve improved. It was 2011, and it went up 6% in terms of winning games from 2010.

Night and day...

2011 was when his serve most improved because if you noticed between 2010 and the beginning of 2011, Novak changed his serve form. It used to lag far too behind his back and killed a lot of momentum swinging forward. So around the start of 2011 in the AO he was comfortable with his new service motion where his swinging arm was much more closer to his back. 2011 is also when novak double faulted alot less.

His form has remained the same since 2011, but I believe that in 2014- mid 2016 his serve was VERY confident and he did show improvements, especially in clutch situations.

As for this thread I believe 2014-2016 Federer is way better than young novak.

Young novak at the time didn't have a reliable serve, backhand slice, or even volleys for that matter. They were all pretty average besides his baseline game.
The only thing 2014-2016 Federer lacked was confidence in big matches, otherwise he could've closed out many matches.

 

[Gary Duane]

2011 was when his serve most improved because if you noticed between 2010 and the beginning of 2011, Novak changed his serve form. It used to lag far too behind his back and killed a lot of momentum swinging forward. So around the start of 2011 in the AO he was comfortable with his new service motion where his swinging arm was much more closer to his back. 2011 is also when novak double faulted a lot less.

His form has remained the same since 2011, but I believe that in 2014- mid 2016 his serve was VERY confident and he did show improvements, especially in clutch situations.

In terms of winning service games, here is the order by year:

2015
2013
2014
2012
2008
2011
2016
2016

career
2009
2007
2010
2006
2005
2004

No surprises here except for 2008.

The problem is that in 2008 his returning was bad, by his standards.

 

[abmk]

2011 was when his serve most improved because if you noticed between 2010 and the beginning of 2011, Novak changed his serve form. It used to lag far too behind his back and killed a lot of momentum swinging forward. So around the start of 2011 in the AO he was comfortable with his new service motion where his swinging arm was much more closer to his back. 2011 is also when novak double faulted alot less.

His form has remained the same since 2011, but I believe that in 2014- mid 2016 his serve was VERY confident and he did show improvements, especially in clutch situations.

As for this thread I believe 2014-2016 Federer is way better than young novak.

Young novak at the time didn't have a reliable serve, backhand slice, or even volleys for that matter. They were all pretty average besides his baseline game.
The only thing 2014-2016 Federer lacked was confidence in big matches, otherwise he could've closed out many matches.

yeah, silly all of us thinking federer's baseline game in 14-16 was completely and utterly below his level in 08-09 , let alone his level from 04-07 ..
so stupid of us to think federer's return game in 14-16 was well below his peak level.

 

[Druss]

Help me, I can't see the logic in simply picking up the years based on them being No. 3 in that period. What would we do next? Compare their No. 4 years or No. 17 ranked period etc?

I think you should first define what's young and old. Is it based on calendar age or tennis age? coz we know Fed matured slower in his career. Or is it based on the results, which if yes, gets my argument again in picking non-peak vs peak years.

I'm just trying to understand the background and context first.

It's about young Djoker's level of play. 2005 or 2006 he was irrelevant and 2010 he (as well as Fed) was not playing well. 2011 he peaked and was not 'young' anymore so hence why 2007-09.

On the other hand, Fed was not exactly 'old' in 2011 or 2012, and 2013 was a write-off, hence why 2014-16. 2017 is turning out to be interesting but we're not even halfway through the season, so no point bringing that up. Hope that helps clarifying

 

[KINGROGER]

I think it's more severe.

Nadal never lost a match to Novak on clay until 2011.

Those losses were all at either M1000s or at RG except for an additional loss, on clay, in Davis Cup.

He finally scored two wins in 2011, the year I personally think was Novak's best year.

Then starting in 2012 and through 2014 Nadal once again won 5/7 matches on clay, including three losses in a row at RG.

It seems to me that for the most part Nadal simply closed the door on clay. It's no mystery why Novak put his energy into winning at places like the AO, and the spring HC season has been his fortress, just as RG and the clay season has been Nadal's.

Federer pretty much did the opposite of Djokovic in that respect. From 07 onward he pretty much neglected everything but grand slams, WTF and clay season.

He should've just focused most of his energy on sweeping the US masters and the indoor season. I'm certain he'd have about 35 masters by now had he tried harder and been smarter at them between 07-10. It was only 2011 when he really started to go for everything again and by then he was already 30 and more vulnerable.

2011 was when his serve most improved because if you noticed between 2010 and the beginning of 2011, Novak changed his serve form. It used to lag far too behind his back and killed a lot of momentum swinging forward. So around the start of 2011 in the AO he was comfortable with his new service motion where his swinging arm was much more closer to his back. 2011 is also when novak double faulted alot less.

His form has remained the same since 2011, but I believe that in 2014- mid 2016 his serve was VERY confident and he did show improvements, especially in clutch situations.

As for this thread I believe 2014-2016 Federer is way better than young novak.

Young novak at the time didn't have a reliable serve, backhand slice, or even volleys for that matter. They were all pretty average besides his baseline game.
The only thing 2014-2016 Federer lacked was confidence in big matches, otherwise he could've closed out many matches.

2014-2016 didn't have a baseline game of note. Especially at Wimbledon or 2015 USO final. He looked amazing sweeping aside mugs like Goffin (2016AO and remains one of my favourite ever Fed performances) but as soon as he met an elite baseline like Nole he would lose unless playing on a fast surface (Dubai, Shanghai, Cincy).

 

[Rosstour]

Only in injury ridden years did Fed fail to reach a slam final: 2013 and 2016. When healthy, he has been virtually a lock for a at least 1 slam final.

It's also interesting that Fed has been a lock for a slam semi regardless of his form.

Yup. One cool little Fed stat...since he started winning Slams, he reached SF or better at the Aussie in 13 of 14 seasons.

He's been awesome at Wim and US too but by far the most consistent at AO. Djokovic has 1 more trophy there but his winning years were the only times he went deeper than SF. So Roger has over 2x as many "SF or better" showings in Australia.

 

[metsman]

Yup. One cool little Fed stat...since he started winning Slams, he reached SF or better at the Aussie in 13 of 14 seasons.

He's been awesome at Wim and US too but by far the most consistent at AO. Djokovic has 1 more trophy there but his winning years were the only times he went deeper than SF. So Roger has over 2x as many "SF or better" showings in Australia.

that and a couple line calls is why Fed may have a case to be at least tied with him at the AO.

 

[Waspsting]

Novak won his first ATP title on clay , but his natural game suits to HC as I said. The thing that he is excellent on clay and grass too (look at his results at Wimb, as careful observer( my impression from your posting here so far) you can choose to not fall to forum mantra about his grass game) but that doesn't change before mentioned fact . HC is Novaks bread and butter

He's great on all surfaces, no dispute - that wasn't my point.

I was thinking in terms of which surfaces he (and his game) were most naturally suited to. I see Djokovic on grass like I do Borg - who readjusted his 'natural' game to it - but was its master (as opposed to clay, where he was equally masterful, but his default style was sufficient for that mastery)

I suppose everyone has to adjust to grass to a degree? - since no one grows up playing on it much. Even Sampras and Federer had an adjustment period

Not sure about Edberg and Becker. Maybe the preponderance of carpet made it easier for young players to 'adjust' to grass in that period. Edberg, If I'm not mistaken, was raised on clay, which seems odd given his style.

----

well thanks ( I'm blushing)

The author of -

OP this post is all that you need to know, poster cleared it for you.
Enjoy

deserves it!

 

[Noelan]

I clearly said HC is the surface to which Djokovic natural game is the most suited .
And I don't know what is the point of quoting my two post from two different threads