Your opinion on players changing nationalities for more funding?

I remember listening to a discussion between a few tennis analysts during Raonic's run at the AO about Greg Rusedski and players changing nationalities in general. It's not a foreign concept, we already had a handful of players opting to do so, mainly to receive better funding from a different international tennis federation. We have people like Mary Piece, Greg Rusedski and more recently, Dustin Brown making the change. Some people are still sour about Rusedski changing nationalities while some point to Tennis Canada being crap for driving Rusedski away.

My take on this issue is that both parties are at fault here. Even though their original tennis federations may have been horrible, it still isn't necessarily imperative to switch nationalities, it seems very selfish to me. Tennis Federations may not invest a great deal on aspects such as player development or funding if they don't see the results, the money makers and publicity generators. However if a player was able to achieve great things and establish a presence internationally while with their original federation, it may garner publicity, revenue and increased interest and attention to player development and funding.

I also however believe that tennis federations shouldn't have to wait till numerous promising players switch nationalities to address the state of their player funding and development. However once again, ties with my point above, management issues are also probably taken into consideration. If Milos stays with Tennis Canada, he's doing a lot of good for the federation and tennis in Canada as a whole.
 

accidental

Hall of Fame
I just saw Brown switched to Germany, not sure if I support this decision. Brown seemed to be expecting quite a lot from the Jamaican tennis federation... I was surprised that one even existed
 
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8F93W5

Rookie
What about players coaching/captaining Davis Cup against their own country. Didn't Tilden coach or captain the German team for a while?
 

Devilito

Hall of Fame
This is what I wrote In the other thread about Greg;

I don’t blame him for leaving. I’d have done the same thing. Greg was a top 50 player that got zero support from tennis Canada. They wouldn’t help him in any way. Tennis Canada was so cheap they basically forced him to the UK where they welcomed him with open arms and a huge support system that helped him reach a top 5 ranking. If Canada wasn’t so ignorant and helped develop their player then he wouldn’t have left. The only reason Raonic is doing well now is because Tennis Canada changed their tune and realized the mistake they made with Greg and don’t want to make the same mistake twice. So while I applaud Tennis Canada currently, they were %100 at fault for losing Greg.

Gerg’s cost to play on the tour was $200,000/ year and he got zero help from Canada. He was spending more than he was making and going broke. Not only would tennis Canada not support him, but idiotic Canadian corporations wouldn’t even sponsor him because outside of hockey they didn’t know anything about sports. Canada is famous for being culturally void of any identity in sports or the arts. There is a reason any promising Canadian athlete goes down to the US for college on a sponsorship deal. There are Canadian univiersities that actually CHARGE YOU for playing a sport, not help you. Canada truly is pathetic when it comes to these issues. The players are not to blame at all and I would have done the same thing Greg did in a heartbeat.
 

JustBob

Hall of Fame
It's not easy developing tennis players in Canada. The weather, lack of competition and lack of funding being the main issues. However, as I mentionned in other threads before, Tennis Canada is a lot better than it used to be. They now have structures, personel, and player development programs in place that essentially mirror what the best (France, Spain) are currently doing, of course on a smaller scale. For example, Tennis Canada only provides support to the top 4 (males and females) in every age group. Personnally, I'd rather they do it right on a smaller scale than throw around money they don't have. I won't address the silliness about Canada not having any cultural/sports identity but it's obvious that college sports in Canada will never be as big as in the US. While this might suck for athletes, it also means that the general population of students don't have to pay absurdly high tution fees. These are simply societal choices based on different values and principles. (And note that the NCAA, the Academy system and the USTA have failed to develop elite players in the past 10-15 years simply because their player development programs have fallen behind).

As to athletes changing countries, see the Olympics. Countries "buy" athletes all the time. There are probably 100 Kenyan or Ethiopian long distance runners that achieve the Olympic standards but can't make their Olympic team. It's not that common in tennis, but in markets where money is low and talent is high, then it makes sense for talent to seek opportunities elsewhere.
 
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ollinger

G.O.A.T.
Nationalism is important to some, less important to others. I think I prefer people for whom it isn't that important. Where you happened to be born impacts your life, but the OP makes it sound like some sort of ethical imperative to have allegiance to that location. If you want to change, and can, good for you! One doesn't harm anyone by doing so.
 

Max G.

Legend
They're professional tennis players. Their job is to get good at playing tennis and then get people to pay them money for it.

Maybe the top 10 or even top 50 can afford not to care about money and just play for whatever country they feel like.

But, say, Dustin Brown? He needs to save up for retirement, and a tennis player's career is short and expenses are high. If another country is offering him a better deal than the one he was born in, I don't at all fault him for taking it.

Now, I *would* find issue with it if the federation he's leaving spent a lot of money developing him. If they sponsored him and paid for his training and got him a coach, and then after he makes it big then he leaves... yeah, that's ingratitude and is sort of unfair. But if the guy made it on his own, with only minimal support, then there's nothing wrong with playing for money. It's a profession, not a hobby.
 

dgoran

Hall of Fame
Some people are children of the earth, so it makes no difference which flag :D
This reminds me of a speech by Haile Selassie I made popular by Bob Marley who incorporated this speech in his song WAR.

I truly and fully believe in World Citizenship if you have more opportunity in another country I see no problems "moving"...

"That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned;

That until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation;

That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes;

That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race;

That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained...

Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; ..."

Haile Selassie I
 

accidental

Hall of Fame
What about players coaching/captaining Davis Cup against their own country. Didn't Tilden coach or captain the German team for a while?
Tilden was basically at war with the USTA for most of his career. He almost single handedly won the davis cup 7 or so times, but was frequently banned from representing the USA in amateur events for things like writing tennis articles for newspapers, which the USTA considered made him a professional. He also offered to coach the US team for free, and the players wanted him, but was rejected over and over again. He was also never officially the German Davis cup coach, he was more of an advisor.
 
This reminds me of a speech by Haile Selassie I made popular by Bob Marley who incorporated this speech in his song WAR.

I truly and fully believe in World Citizenship if you have more opportunity in another country I see no problems "moving"...

"That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned;

That until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation;

That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes;

That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race;

That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained...

Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; ..."

Haile Selassie I
Took the words right from my mouth.
 

Spin Doctor

Professional
Gerg’s cost to play on the tour was $200,000/ year and he got zero help from Canada.
Holy crap. It costs $200k/year to play on tour? Yikes. I assume that is without coaching since that would be significantly more. So basically if you're not a hot prospect when you're a junior (and getting the requisite support from your country) there's really no chance of striking out on your own, unless your parents are rich.
 

namelessone

Legend
This reminds me of a speech by Haile Selassie I made popular by Bob Marley who incorporated this speech in his song WAR.

I truly and fully believe in World Citizenship if you have more opportunity in another country I see no problems "moving"...

"That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned;

That until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation;

That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes;

That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race;

That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained...

Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; ..."

Haile Selassie I
This is all very politically correct and it has an utopian feel to it but looking at reality and history it actually seems like a pretty childish POV as it will never come about. Man is made to go against man. That's just how it is. Don't tell me you've never felt superior(or inferior) to anyone. Don't tell me you didn't have "racist" thoughts about a particular group of people based on things you have experienced with them. There have ALWAYS been first and second class citizens, even in systems that are based on equalizing man(at least in theory), like communism. That's how societies work unfortunately.

Even skin color matters because, speaking in evolutionary terms, it has a tremendous visual impact and indentifies someone as being from a "different tribe". This is also true for other features as well. There was a bit on tv where they did an experiment on college students, they put white people in a particular setting(outdoorsy) and then they introduced them to people they didn't know, monitoring their physical reaction. When white strangers came about, there was a small change but nothing significant. When strangers from other "races"(including black) came to the scene, the body responded in a stronger way and the physical changes were more apparent. The experiment was the same viceversa(other races meeting caucasian) with different people and the result were the same. When people met other similar(in physical appearance) humans, even though they were strangers, they felt more at ease apparently.

And this is proven in real life as well. If you meet black,black,black,black, in your neighbourhood, a white person is seen as unusual,different. Ditto for white people meeting mostly whites, a black person will stand out. Now we may not perceive these other race strangers as hostile or anything like that but the primal part of us does make the assumption that they are different from us(or from what we are used to seeing). Again, once we get used to other "races", this bodily reaction goes down but I though this experiment was interesting, it basically proved how from an evolution POV, we don't treat all "races"(since the quote was about skin colour) equal, or at least our reptilian brain doesn't. Humans gang up in tribes, even modern humans, and in many such tribes skin colour plays a big part, though it's not the unique criteria for adherence to a group. And tribes go against other tribes, it's nature, someone has to be at the top and someone has to be at the bottom so this "let's be nice to everyone" thing is just crap at the end of the day. It's very cool in an utopian way but it will never happen.

I'd like to end this post with a positive quote: "Let's keep f**kin each other till we reach the same colour!" :)
 
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origmarm

Hall of Fame
I just saw Brown switched to Germany, not sure if I support this decision. Brown seemed to be expecting quite a lot from the Jamaican tennis federation... I was surprised that one even existed
Me too. It's such a small place you wouldn't think it would have individual sporting bodies. Perhaps a "sports council" or something but something that specific...I was surprised.
 

theZig

Rookie
tennis is by nature a selfish sport. you are out there alone to win, for your own glory and gains. nothing wrong with doing whatever it takes to do that.
 
Dustin Brown's mother is German, which is where he was born, but earlier in his career he choose to play for his father's country, Jamaica. It was trying to support and encourage the people there, children especially, to play tennis, to have players to "look for" on the world scene. Whether or not they could have given more support to him...? Well, Jamaica isn't considered a "wealthy" country or even a moderate one.

As someone mentioned, in some ways, at 26 is "middling" in his tennis career. If he wanted to go higher, he knew he needed to do something more. The camper his parents bought him to playing futures and challenger within reach in Europe wasn't getting him around the world, as he would need to rise in ranking.

Having dual citizenship was a plus, and seven years ago he officially moved back to Deutschland though it had been his homebase since his mother (and siblings) lived there. He then choose to accept the proposal tennis supporters made him. Why not? Football players from Brazil, African and other countries with no blood ties or family in Germany (or other places in Europe) except for perhaps a newly married EU citizen wife, are virtually given German citizenship so they can play for the team in larger venues. That I don't necessarily agree with but...

It's a matter of several logical factors in Dustin Brown's case, since he really wasn't "switching" countries. http://www.dustinbrown.de.tl/
 
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el sergento

Hall of Fame
This is what I wrote In the other thread about Greg;

I don’t blame him for leaving. I’d have done the same thing. Greg was a top 50 player that got zero support from tennis Canada. They wouldn’t help him in any way. Tennis Canada was so cheap they basically forced him to the UK where they welcomed him with open arms and a huge support system that helped him reach a top 5 ranking. If Canada wasn’t so ignorant and helped develop their player then he wouldn’t have left. The only reason Raonic is doing well now is because Tennis Canada changed their tune and realized the mistake they made with Greg and don’t want to make the same mistake twice. So while I applaud Tennis Canada currently, they were %100 at fault for losing Greg.

Gerg’s cost to play on the tour was $200,000/ year and he got zero help from Canada. He was spending more than he was making and going broke. Not only would tennis Canada not support him, but idiotic Canadian corporations wouldn’t even sponsor him because outside of hockey they didn’t know anything about sports.
Up until now, good post.

Then...

Canada is famous for being culturally void of any identity in sports or the arts. There is a reason any promising Canadian athlete goes down to the US for college on a sponsorship deal. There are Canadian univiersities that actually CHARGE YOU for playing a sport, not help you. Canada truly is pathetic when it comes to these issues. The players are not to blame at all and I would have done the same thing Greg did in a heartbeat.
Spoken like a true Canadian, always downplaying his own country and then lamenting the fact that "it lacks identity". At least I hope you're Canadian, if not you're just a d-bag.

Lets talk about cultural identity in sports for a second shall we. I probably don't have to tell you that there is a very strong cultural identity to hockey and both hockey players and hockey families/communities and guess what, the traits and connotations are a million times more positive than the cultural traits currently associated with American sports. Witness:

Baseball - Steroids
Basketball - (R)ape
Football - (R)ape, penis pictures, guns, animal cruelty
Tennis - Andy Roddick :twisted: (kidding)

Now on to the arts.

For every Bieber and Lavigne and Bryan Adams there are at least 10 great indie bands. Montreal alone has an awesome music scene, including the most recent Grammy winners for best album.

Now on topic:

Tennis is an individual sport and very few federations actually have proper funding. France has done the best lately, but look at the USTA, they couldn't have more money and yet, where are the results?

Players do what they have to do to succeed. But in reality, Rusedski being the exeption, most decisions are made by the families of the players. Individual choice is quite rare in the matter because tennis players develop at such a young age. I mean, do you think Tomic or Wozniaki had a choice when it came to what country they play for?

Now on to Milos. He's from Montenegro for chrissakes, I've been there, and although it's beautiful (and the women are the hottest on earth), it's also the size of the Tennis Canada facility in Montreal. There's no way his federation was going to help in any way.
 
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Up until now, good post.

Then...



Spoken like a true Canadian, always downplaying his own country and then lamenting the fact that "it lacks identity". At least I hope you're Canadian, if not you're just a d-bag.

Lets talk about cultural identity in sports for a second shall we. I probably don't have to tell you that there is a very strong cultural identity to hockey and both hockey players and hockey families/communities and guess what, the traits and connotations are a million times more positive than the cultural traits currently associated with American sports. Witness:

Baseball - Steroids
Basketball - (R)ape
Football - (R)ape, penis pictures, guns, animal cruelty
Tennis - Andy Roddick :twisted: (kidding)

Now on to the arts.

For every Bieber and Lavigne and Bryan Adams there are at least 10 great indie bands. Montreal alone has an awesome music scene, including the most recent Grammy winners for best album.

Avril Lavigne
 

Bhagi Katbamna

Hall of Fame
The player only has one chance to go pro and excel. The country could have many candidates. I don't blame the player for doing whatever it takes to improve his chances.
 

Pozarevacka

Banned
Is milos born in canada? or at least raised?

sound like a croate or so.
He's Serbian born in Podgorica, Yugoslavia... present day Montenegro.


Anyways, if a player switches... let them. Ok maybe Canada invested a little money.. but tell me how much they are making off of this kid!?! They have all this free marketing from him... government subsidies... the list goes on!

Canadians should be happy Danijel Nestorovic stayed with Canada and didn't play for Serbia.

But, one guy I can almost guarantee will switch nationalities is Bernard Tomic. That guy will end up with Croatia. His family is nuts.

Lastly... no talk about Jelena Dokic leaving Serbia for Australia...

It happens. You move on. Personally, it means nothing. You are where you come from, and just by having that flag next to your name doesn't mean anything. Raonic is from Montenegro and raised in Canada, no matter what flag is next to this guys name on the tv.

One question I pose... who cares? I like Fed... I'm not Swiss and could care less what country he plays for. I live in America, and don't like 1 single player on tour right now from the US. If someone switches, it is their personal decision.
 
He's Serbian born in Podgorica, Yugoslavia... present day Montenegro.


Anyways, if a player switches... let them. Ok maybe Canada invested a little money.. but tell me how much they are making off of this kid!?! They have all this free marketing from him... government subsidies... the list goes on!

Canadians should be happy Danijel Nestorovic stayed with Canada and didn't play for Serbia.

But, one guy I can almost guarantee will switch nationalities is Bernard Tomic. That guy will end up with Croatia. His family is nuts.

Lastly... no talk about Jelena Dokic leaving Serbia for Australia...

It happens. You move on. Personally, it means nothing. You are where you come from, and just by having that flag next to your name doesn't mean anything. Raonic is from Montenegro and raised in Canada, no matter what flag is next to this guys name on the tv.

One question I pose... who cares? I like Fed... I'm not Swiss and could care less what country he plays for. I live in America, and don't like 1 single player on tour right now from the US. If someone switches, it is their personal decision.
Yea your point of view makes sense, but it just seems so wrong. To grow up somewhere and literally be a citizen of that nation to only turn around and run into the open arms of some Sugar-Mama country that'll let you suck on her teat? I would throw up. Raonic was born in Europe but just listen to the guy. He seems CANADIAN. Though I worry because he does say he goes back to his birthplace alot... I hope he doesn't defect. I'd lose alot of respect for him.:cry:
 

Pozarevacka

Banned
Yea your point of view makes sense, but it just seems so wrong. To grow up somewhere and literally be a citizen of that nation to only turn around and run into the open arms of some Sugar-Mama country that'll let you suck on her teat? I would throw up. Raonic was born in Europe but just listen to the guy. He seems CANADIAN. Though I worry because he does say he goes back to his birthplace alot... I hope he doesn't defect. I'd lose alot of respect for him.:cry:
Well his mother and sister spend most of their time there. But, he is still a Montenegrin citizen and didn't he actually run into the open arms of Canada? I could care less what country all these morons that write about tennis call him. Oh the Canadian this Canadian that... why don't they just say Milos...? I think it would be interesting if he plays under Montenegro... everyone would be like... Monte-what?
 

Matt H.

Professional
Hierarchy of needs, people.

We talk real big on message forums because it’s very easy to do when you’re just arguing about principle or theories in a vaccum. Real life is a very different animal.

There is no money in tennis. The vast majority of us fail to recognize this reality because when we turn on the tennis channel or ESPN2 to watch our grand slam coverage we see the same dozen players who are millionaires. What we fail to realize is that the WTA and ATP is loaded with a few thousand players and the wealth concentration is so ridiculously loaded at the top. The majority of players are fighting thru the qualies to get into a futures or challenger tournament with the hope of scoring that $1300 or $2950 winner’s check on that Sunday afternoon.

Let that soak in for a minute. You pay for your travel expenses to get to the tournament. Play anywhere from 5-7 matches, and if you come out on top of every single one you’re getting $1300 at the futures or $2950 at the challenger. You lose at any point earlier and your pay for the week is 3 figures. Your overall financial picture for that week was fat red ink for a loss.
 
Question... If Quebec were able to secede... would he then be Canadian or Quebecian? In the matter of a day he can change who he is? Why is everyone crazy about these imaginary lines?
What I'm trying to say is, he was raised there. He went to school there. Had his first kiss there. Hit his first tennis ball there. For god sakes watch his interviews. He says "UT" like a Canadian. Of course it's his decision but he knows how big he is for Canada and their up and comers. I mean what if he was born on the Plane from Montenegro to Canada. He'd then be of Montenegrin descent, born over international waters and raised in Canada. I'd still say he was Canadian. lol
 

Nadalfan89

Hall of Fame
Take it from someone who's been involved with Tennis Canada for over ten years - They're an absolute joke of an organization that is more interested in wasting money on Get Fit programs for fat people than training and supporting top 10 talent.

Raonic is truly incredible, not only because of his talent but because of the laughable Canadian support system.

He'll probably switch nationalities and I don't blame him one bit.
 
Hierarchy of needs, people.

We talk real big on message forums because it’s very easy to do when you’re just arguing about principle or theories in a vaccum. Real life is a very different animal.

There is no money in tennis. The vast majority of us fail to recognize this reality because when we turn on the tennis channel or ESPN2 to watch our grand slam coverage we see the same dozen players who are millionaires. What we fail to realize is that the WTA and ATP is loaded with a few thousand players and the wealth concentration is so ridiculously loaded at the top. The majority of players are fighting thru the qualies to get into a futures or challenger tournament with the hope of scoring that $1300 or $2950 winner’s check on that Sunday afternoon.

Let that soak in for a minute. You pay for your travel expenses to get to the tournament. Play anywhere from 5-7 matches, and if you come out on top of every single one you’re getting $1300 at the futures or $2950 at the challenger. You lose at any point earlier and your pay for the week is 3 figures. Your overall financial picture for that week was fat red ink for a loss.
I'm completely with you on this one. Unless you've actually tried you can have no idea of what it costs, takes and how hard it is to make it as a professional tennkis player.

The problem really is how easy it is for a player to make the switch purely for financial reasons. This portability/change of nationality issue has been around since for example Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles defected/changed nationalities to the US.

I didn't realise how poorly Rusedski was treated by his national governing body, but as Brit myself, have never really thought of him as being British, though his committment to our Davis Cup team was fantastic.

I guess life has changed - I never thought I'd see tennis in the Olympics, a formerly amateur event, which for the past 20 years has been dominated by sporting millionaires.

When my book come out next week people may have a different perspective on things.

MARTIN BALDRIDGE
 

vernonbc

Legend
What a bunch of loons posting here. Raonic is Canadian. He is a Canadian tennis player. He said to a reporter after he won in San Jose and was asked whether he was Montenegrin or Canadian "What does it say after my name in every tournament I'm entered in? Who do I play Davis Cup for? There was no decision to be made. It's not something I even think about."
 

Ocean Drive

Hall of Fame
I just saw Brown switched to Germany, not sure if I support this decision. Brown seemed to be expecting quite a lot from the Jamaican tennis federation... I was surprised that one even existed
How can you not support his decision? The Jamaican Tennis Federation is a disgrace and have refused to support him, the guy was living in a camper van for crying out loud, don't be so narrow minded.
 

pound cat

G.O.A.T.
He was born in Montenegro, but he was RAISED in Canada.
He came to canada when he was 3. Sort of like Daniel Nestor. Tennis Canada arranged and pays for his training in Barcelona. Smart move for him to learn clay in a country that excels in it, and he has a great coach, What better backing could a country give a player?

Maybe if the USA did the same with some of it's players they would know something other than hard court.
 

pound cat

G.O.A.T.
How can you not support his decision? The Jamaican Tennis Federation is a disgrace and have refused to support him, the guy was living in a camper van for crying out loud, don't be so narrow minded.

And Brown spent much of his life in Germany. One of his parents is German and he has dual citizenship.
 
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