Your Ranges of Motion? Pronation & Internal Shoulder Rotation

[Chas Tennis]

I'd like to get an idea of the ranges of motion for pronation and then for internal shoulder rotation. Then for both joint motions together.

1) PRONATION These would be by using the muscles only to move from maximum supination to maximum pronation at the other end.

-Bend elbow at 90 degrees and and go from maximum pronation to maximum supination, back and forth. Estimate angle.

I get about 180 d. maybe slightly less.

2) INTERNAL SHOULDER ROTATION (ISR). Use only muscles.

- Hold straight arm straight out from the shoulder - and try to keep pronation-supination from occurring (it takes some effort to keep pronation still). Go from maximum external shoulder rotation to maximum internal shoulder rotation. Estimate angle.

I get about 180 d. maybe slightly more.

3) BOTH PRONATION + INTERNAL SHOULDER ROTATION. Now hold straight arm out from the shoulder and rotate wrist using both maximum pronation and maximum ISR together and then go to both maximum supination and maximum external shoulder rotation together. Estimate angle.

I get about 270 d. total range of motion at the wrist/hand.

There are videos on measuring individual joint motions. But #2 and #3 above should be done with a straight arm.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

150 max pronate only
Can't figure it out
270 both

 

[Curiosity]

I get about 280+ from full ESR to full ISR. I hit straight-arm, though, and don't therefore get a separate pronation rotation. (I actually think the elbow prevents such a separate pronation motion apart from ISR at the shoulder joint. No?)

 

[Pete Player]

Supination/pronation ~190°
ESR/ISR ~270°

Combined ~360°

Try also this:
- stand upright and lift your upper arm horizontal out to your side, forearm vertical making a 90° angle and twist the upper arm back clockwise, compare the forearm angle to vertical. And then CCW as down as possible. That range for me is about 210°

I get about 35° lay-back, which is very important factor in restoring energy for throwing motion. I think of seeing Federer measured at 37°, but cannot find the Somac-video on Ytube now.




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[Dragy]

Sup/pron just over 180
ISR/ESR maybe 200 (checked with 90 deg elbow bend) - try isolating without shoulder moves, just upper arm in shoulder soccket
Combined 360

 

[FiReFTW]

Hard to say completely accurate but aproximately:

Pronation = 220~
Shoulder rotation = 230~
Combined = 400-420~

I think im pretty close with the angles, can anyone from the pictures accurately say the exact angles?

But overall im pretty happy with the flexibility after the test

 

[pencilcheck]

I'm not sure if knowing the angles of those ISR or Pronation really helps improving your strokes.

However I do think that rotation is awesome, but if you can't connect your strength from your body to the racquet then it is useless, and I think in order to do that you don't have to think about those pronation and ISR, just think about which muscle in your hand is the strongest that connects to your forearm for instance that you can form a kinetic chain then you will have good strokes in my opinion.

 

[chetrbox]

Isn't it easier to isolate the shoulder rotation (when measuring 2) if you keep the 90 degree elbow bend like when measuring 1?

The numbers I get are;
1 - 190 degrees
2 - 210 degrees
3 - 360 degrees

 

[IowaGuy]

Hard to say completely accurate but aproximately:

Pronation = 220~
Shoulder rotation = 230~
Combined = 400-420~

Off-topic: @FiReFTW - what's your theory on that lead placement?

Why not just a continuous strip from 10 to 2 like some pros use?

 

[FiReFTW]

Off-topic: @FiReFTW - what's your theory on that lead placement?

Why not just a continuous strip from 10 to 2 like some pros use?

My ps97cv doesnt have alot of twist weight and sweet spot is small, this placement has been working perfectly for me since i tried it!

 

[Chas Tennis]

Supination/pronation ~190°
ESR/ISR ~270°

Combined ~360°

Try also this:
- stand upright and lift your upper arm horizontal out to your side, forearm vertical making a 90° angle and twist the upper arm back clockwise, compare the forearm angle to vertical. And then CCW as down as possible. That range for me is about 210°

I get about 35° lay-back, which is very important factor in restoring energy for throwing motion. I think of seeing Federer measured at 37°, but cannot find the Somac-video on Ytube now.




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I can best estimate by looking out along my arm with a neutral wrist (hand in line with forearm).

Arm straight and straight out from the shoulder. My palm can face the sky with the thumb about horizontal at one limit and then I can rotate, with ISR + pronation, so that the thumb is pointing down about vertical, ~270 d. That represents internal shoulder rotation plus pronation with a straight arm. If you want to see pronation and ISR put markers of blue painter's tape above elbow and at the wrist. ISR turns both markers together and pronation turns just the marker at the wrist.

For this thread, you can't measure pronation with a bent elbow and then add it to ISR with a straight arm. Is that how you got 360 d? Also, with a ball joint like the shoulder the clinical measurement of pronation or ISR with be made under prescribed conditions. The elbow bent for pronation measurement is a clinical measurement for comparing the range of motion of a joint.

With a straight arm it is difficult to rotate only ISR, you concentrate and practice it. If you bend the elbow you know ISR because it rotates the upper arm bone and moves the forearm.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I get about 280+ from full ESR to full ISR. I hit straight-arm, though, and don't therefore get a separate pronation rotation. (I actually think the elbow prevents such a separate pronation motion apart from ISR at the shoulder joint. No?)

No. Pronation occurs with two joints one on each end of the forearm, at the elbow and wrist, one at the elbow and one at the wrist. All motion is in the forearm where the ulna and radial bones twist and form an "X".

All Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) occurs between the shoulder joint and elbow, the humerus rotates like a top. Of course, the upper arm rotation carries the forearm and wrist with it.

With the arm straight both pronation and ISR produce the same rotation of the wrist and hand. Total rotation seen at the wrist/hand is ISR + pronation.

 

[Pete Player]

For this thread, you can't measure pronation with a bent elbow and then add it to ISR with a straight arm. Is that how you got 360 d?

No. That is not how. And I didn’t get numbers like 190+270 = 460, but 360.

I estimated pronation having my upper arm forward (horizontally) twisting my forearm only holding my elbow with the other had. Palm facing my face (full supination) and then twist palm as far away my face by forearm only. Still holding the elbow steady with the other hand.

Combined effort was straight arm horizontal sideways (ie. on the extension of shoulderline) twisting the upper arm from full ESR+supination to full ISR+pronation. There might have been some elbow bending long the way, but my palm pointed to the absolute opposite direction at the end of the ISR-range.

The layed back 90° bent elbow was sideways full ESR palm forward and full ISR without changing the palm orientation to the elbow just twisting the upper arm by the long axis. Forearm pointing down at the end of ISR.




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[Kevo]

My numbers are similar to Chas's. I might be getting about 8-10 degrees more pronation, but it's roughly the same.

 

[Kevo]

Combined effort was straight arm horizontal sideways (ie. on the extension of shoulderline) twisting the upper arm from full ESR+supination to full ISR+pronation. There might have been some elbow bending long the way, but my palm pointed to the absolute opposite direction at the ends of the ISR-range.

I also can go more than a full 360 using that method if I allow my shoulder to roll a bit. Palm flat to palm flat plus a little more both ways if I work at it.

 

[Pete Player]

To my understanding the full ISR+Pronation doesn’t play a big role in any tennis shot, cause impact on any fh-like (includes also the serve) is somewhere in the middle of the range. The last quarter or third is for slowing the racket pace down.


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[FiReFTW]

To my understanding the full ISR+Pronation doesn’t play a big role in any tennis shot, cause impact on any fh-like (includes also the serve) is somewhere in the middle of the range. The last quarter or third is for slowing the racket pace down.


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Flexibility does play a part tho which is the talk here, the more flexible the more rotation and supination you get and a deeper racquet drop, and the more racquet speed you can produce prior to contact.

 

[Pete Player]

Flexibility does play a part tho which is the talk here, the more flexible the more rotation and supination you get and a deeper racquet drop, and the more racquet speed you can produce prior to contact.

Even with less flexibility you can get pretty high RHS. But in that case, your moves need to be more abrupt.

A solid plow thru is a matter of proper rythm. If your range is narrow, you need quicker rythm working in both shorter period of time and smaller space.


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[Hmgraphite1]

Even with less flexibility you can get pretty high RHS. But in that case, your moves need to be more abrupt.

A solid plow thru is a matter of proper rythm. If your range is narrow, you need quicker rythm working in both shorter period of time and smaller space.


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Agree, fast twitch and powerful muscle may negate any losses due to inflexibility.

 

[FiReFTW]

Agree, fast twitch and powerful muscle may negate any losses due to inflexibility.

Yes but if you have fast twich + flexibility its even better haha.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Yes but if you have fast twich + flexibility its even better haha.

Maybe in most cases

 

[Chas Tennis]

No. That is not how. And I didn’t get numbers like 190+270 = 460, but 360.
............................................................................................................................
Combined effort was straight arm horizontal sideways (ie. on the extension of shoulderline) twisting the upper arm from full ESR+supination to full ISR+pronation. There might have been some elbow bending long the way, but my palm pointed to the absolute opposite direction at the end of the ISR-range.
.......................................................

360 d. is the palm facing the same direction as when it started? You have that! ?

 

[Pete Player]

360 d. is the palm facing the same direction as when it started? You have that! ?

No, but the thumb is.


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[Chas Tennis]

Thumb?

If I stick my thumb at right angles to my forearm at maximum ESR + supination looking out at my hand the thumb appears, horizontal at about 3 o'clock. It rotates with ISR + pronation so that the thumb is down, vertical or about 6 o'clock? That is 270 degrees. 360 would put the hand in the same orientation as it started.

Do you have 270 or 360?

 

[Chas Tennis]

I also can go more than a full 360 using that method if I allow my shoulder to roll a bit. Palm flat to palm flat plus a little more both ways if I work at it.

You too for 360?

 

[Hmgraphite1]

I think your advice, video needed prob applies here.
On another note,
Not sure why I can't face my palm upward, lack of supination on forearm, not sure how this adversely or helps my strokes

 

[Pete Player]

Way past 270, about 330 would probably be more accurate than 360.

But as service goes, I’m not twisting the arm defenately more than 270, maybe close to 250-ish position. Everything past contact is nearly free wheeling the RHS off and of passive nature to me.


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[Kevo]

You too for 360?

Yeah, if I just stick my arm straight out to my side from the shoulder, I can roll it thumb pointing back and palm flat up towards the ceiling, and then go the other way all the way back to the same starting position. Even a little bit further than that.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Yeah, if I just stick my arm straight out to my side from the shoulder, I can roll it thumb pointing back and palm flat up towards the ceiling, and then go the other way all the way back to the same starting position. Even a little bit further than that.

That's incredible, are you fully human?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Hard to say completely accurate but aproximately:

Pronation = 220~
Shoulder rotation = 230~
Combined = 400-420~
............................................

Large angles.

Could you try again straight arm straight out from the shoulder with the thumb at right angles to the forearm, as if hitchhiking, and look out at your straight arm. Keep the wrist neutral.

Will tally up some of the numbers tomorrow.

 

[Chas Tennis]

FYI

We are not doing clinical measurements of internal and external shoulder rotations (ISR & ESR).

Clinical measurements of the range of motion.

Note - the angles presented for range of motion for ISR and ESR are measured from a defined "0" degree position. Often "0" degrees is associated with what is called the anatomical position. But search for more detailed videos that show clinical measurements of all joints.

Also, there is a confusing usage in that "internal shoulder rotation" (ISR) can be used for either
1) position - the angle from a defined 0 degrees OR
2) motion - any angular motion toward maximum ISR angle.

The same term "ISR" can mean either position/angle or motion.

You need to keep this in mind if you look up normal ranges of motion.
Normal range of motion for ESR is 90 d.
Normal range of motion for ISR is 70-90 d.

Here is a publication that deals with total range of motion from maximum ESR to Maximum ISR as we are doing. You can also read the complete publication.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ternal-rotation-ER-and-internal_fig1_49658398

Complete publication. See GIRD, a shift of the total range of motion in the ESR direction for throwing athletes, tennis servers and other 'overhead' athletes.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...er_Injuries_in_Professional_Baseball_Pitchers

 

[Pete Player]

Looking at pitchers and few other throw sports people, the ”normal” is stretched beyond, what is considered normal clinically. Swimmers also have really good flexibility in their shoulders.

Same goes for, if not all good, at least many good servers in tennis, who’s got pace on their serves.

Any throwing carries a severe risk of shoulder injury.

For instance I am suffering halfway thru torn ligaments and ripped labrum as well on my playing arm shoulder.


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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer

 

[Chas Tennis]

Looking at pitchers and few other throw sports people, the ”normal” is stretched beyond, what is considered normal clinically. Swimmers also have really good flexibility in their shoulders.

Same goes for, if not all good, at least many good servers in tennis, who’s got pace on their serves.

Any throwing carries a severe risk of shoulder injury.

.........................

According to the video, clinical measurements include active motions by the patient where they use their own muscles to move the joint as far as they can. (We are also using our own active muscle forces in the OP measurement.) Also, there is a "passive" clinical measurement where the physical therapist or Dr applies external force to the arm of the patient and measures the maximum angle.

For serving, the server uses his own muscles for some of the motion to cause ESR but then strong body accelerations are also used to force additional ESR and cause the muscles of ISR to stretch farther.

There is a lot going on in the serve beyond our simple OP, full range of motion, active muscle measurement. We used our muscles to move to maximum ESR + supination and then to maximum ISR + pronation at their ends. We did slow movements not using momentum to force the arm to rotate even farther. In the dynamic baseball pitch or serve, ESR can go farther.......?

GIRD indicates that for long time pitchers or servers the full range of motion may may not increase that much. But the range of motion may all shift together backward toward maximum ESR.

A similar discussion applies to pronation.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pronation bent elbow__Max ESR TO Max ISR (no pronation)___Max ESR + Max Sup TO Max ISR + Max Pro
Last two are straight arm straight out to side from shoulder.

Chas___________ 180__180__270
Hmgraphite____150__???__270
Curiosity________???__???__280
Kevo____________180__180__270 (post #14)?
----------------------------------------------------
Kevo____________ __360 (post #15)?
Draggy_________180__200__360
Pete Player_____190__270__330
Chetrbox_______190__210__360

3 or 4 seem to get to around 330-360 and 3 or 4 get to around 270. Interesting. Real, age, or what?

FiReFTW can you do using just the arm and looking out at the hand with thumb as an indicator?

I will add corrections or additions.

 

[Pete Player]

3 or 4 seem to get to around 330-360 and 3 or 4 get to around 270. Interesting. Real, age, or what?

Made the testing again, and yes, my numbers are quite right there. The max ESR+supination/ISR+pronation looks to be somewhat more than 330, really close to 350.

So it must be real. I’m 51-yo and have been recognized by a physio the rapist having good range in rotations of the femurs on my hips too during my rehab after a hamstring operation.

Some other directions are not that wide anymore. For instanse I cannot take my hands over my head and behind my back holding a cane horizontal hands straight palms down with a grip any narrower than 40 inches, while my shoulder width is just about half of that.

Don’t know, how much I could take off the cane stretch, but I would recon there would be a significant decrease, if stretched every day for three months.




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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer

 

[Kevo]

Using the clinical measurements I get different results depending on which one I use, but they are in a fairly constrained range of about 80-100 degrees.

I think for tennis serve I like the arm straight out from the shoulder and max the palm rotation one way and then the other. That seems more representative of the full rotation range of the serve. It's not arm and pronation either from what I can tell. There is some shoulder roll in there too. And I have no idea what the technical term for that is, but that's what gets me up to or slightly past 360.

Also, I've realized while futzing around with this maneuver that I can keep my elbow still and get a full 180 out of my palm from just my forearm rotation. My elbow position cannot do a full 180 without my shoulder rolling a bit.

 

[Dan R]

Pronation/suppination - 270, total is about 350, so the shoulder is about 80.

 

[Pete Player]

Pronation/suppination - 270, total is about 350, so the shoulder is about 80.

Woah! That is some loose radius!


——————————
No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer