Your take on Steve jobs?

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
Steve Job was very interest guy! Got fired shortly after selection of his BOD and President Sculley!
Gave the best college commencement speech ever shown below:

2005 Stanford Graduation Commencement Ceremony!
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Innovator / visionary. And quite the character. He worked at Atari (Coin Op) at the same time I did in the mid-1970s (circa 1974-75). Both of us worked as electronic technicians at night (swing shift) -- but he was in engineering while I was in the manufacturing troubleshooting crew.

He was quite the character back then as well. He was involved with a redesign effort on the Breakout arcade game. He had his buddy / neighbor, Steve Wozniak, redesign the game to significantly reduce the chip count on the main ckt board. But Jobs took the credit for the redesign and most of the bonus associated with it (he gave a small portion of that bonus to Woz). The Woz design was actually too advanced, too elegant and was not considered manufacturable. The bonus was awarded to the Steves anyway.
 

Soul

Semi-Pro
About the only thing that comes to mind for me with Steve Jobs is my parents laughing when they learned where he want to college for awhile. My folks are from Oregon. They didn't think all that highly of the Portland Or. college he briefly attended. It wasn't the academics that made them chuckle. It was at how much of a hippie school it was, where everyone received an A. I believe that is how it was described.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
He was one of the many confused people who went to India seeking enlightenment from Hinduism and then came back with half-baked notions and extremely negative or extremely positive views. Nowadays with the availability of more information in real-time, people have a more realistic view.
 

nyta2

Professional
He was one of the many confused people who went to India seeking enlightenment from Hinduism and then came back with half-baked notions and extremely negative or extremely positive views. Nowadays with the availability of more information in real-time, people have a more realistic view.
elaborate? i'm always seeking truth/enlightenment (though not in such a mystic sounding way)
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
elaborate? i'm always seeking truth/enlightenment (though not in such a mystic sounding way)
In the 1960s, young people in the West rebelled against dogmatic religion and the prevalent rampant racism and misogyny. They wanted a broader view of spirituality which is not about an angry god out to label people as sinners and punish them. So they went to the East which was still a mystical place for them at that time. Unlike the British who had a realistic view of the East due to colonization, Americans were quite clueless. Some of them found what they wanted and stayed there, some came back disillusioned when they saw similar problems of casteism and oppression, some came back but joined Hindu movements like Hare Krishna, some came back and just continued Yoga, vegetarianism and meditation in a secular way etc.
 

nyta2

Professional
In the 1960s, young people in the West rebelled against dogmatic religion and the prevalent rampant racism and misogyny. They wanted a broader view of spirituality which is not about an angry god out to label people as sinners and punish them. So they went to the East which was still a mystical place for them at that time. Unlike the British who had a realistic view of the East due to colonization, Americans were quite clueless. Some of them found what they wanted and stayed there, some came back disillusioned when they saw similar problems of casteism and oppression, some came back but joined Hindu movements like Hare Krishna, some came back and just continued Yoga, vegetarianism and meditation in a secular way etc.
agreed, that's what alot of people did...
but even if all I came back with is methods to improve my physcial (yoga, veg, etc...) and spiritual (meditation, stoicism, etc...), is that good enough reason(s) for going?

but what were the extreme neg/pos views that he came back with?
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
agreed, that's what alot of people did...
but even if all I came back with is methods to improve my physcial (yoga, veg, etc...) and spiritual (meditation, stoicism, etc...), is that good enough reason(s) for going?

but what were the extreme neg/pos views that he came back with?
He was extremely nasty, probably because he was angry with himself for being a fool. He made a statement that Edison did more for humanity than Marx and Karoli Baba put together. Who was Karoli Baba? Most people in India have never heard of him, but he was supposed to be a Hindu religious mystic. Job's stupidity was to lump a communist and a Hindu holy man together, and his meanness was to compare a scientist like Edison with a religious figure. Note that he did not say that Edison had done more than Christ. That would have been the end of his social and professional career. Many of the people who went to India at that time came back with this kind of identity problem - not willing to commit one way or the other, and saying things that would profit them back home. Jobs also followed the typical path of such people and got into Buddhism. Regardless of what people will tell you, Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. But it is associated with countries like Japan and Korea which Westerners are not ashamed of acknowledging. That is why Buddhism is so hip in Hollywood. Jobs went the same way - got to keep his mystical mumbo-jumbo and yet come out clean.

The British were not like that. They either loved India or hated it with a very overt racist attitude. Very clear.
 

nyta2

Professional
He was extremely nasty, probably because he was angry with himself for being a fool. He made a statement that Edison did more for humanity than Marx and Karoli Baba put together. Who was Karoli Baba? Most people in India have never heard of him, but he was supposed to be a Hindu religious mystic. Job's stupidity was to lump a communist and a Hindu holy man together, and his meanness was to compare a scientist like Edison with a religious figure. Note that he did not say that Edison had done more than Christ. That would have been the end of his social and professional career. Many of the people who went to India at that time came back with this kind of identity problem - not willing to commit one way or the other, and saying things that would profit them back home. Jobs also followed the typical path of such people and got into Buddhism. Regardless of what people will tell you, Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. But it is associated with countries like Japan and Korea which Westerners are not ashamed of acknowledging. That is why Buddhism is so hip in Hollywood. Jobs went the same way - got to keep his mystical mumbo-jumbo and yet come out clean.

The British were not like that. They either loved India or hated it with a very overt racist attitude. Very clear.
hmm... from this passage, i've learned that i don't know much about buddhism and hindusim... will have to brush up more to form an opinion.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
He was one of the many confused people who went to India seeking enlightenment from Hinduism and then came back with half-baked notions and extremely negative or extremely positive views. Nowadays with the availability of more information in real-time, people have a more realistic view.
It always amazes me that even on their visits, they miraculously escape seeing India for what it is and come away with this fairytale impression of India as a mystical land where time stands still. How is that even possible in a country where poverty isn't enclaved away for the most part and instead is right in your face.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
It always amazes me that even on their visits, they miraculously escape seeing India for what it is and come away with this fairytale impression of India as a mystical land where time stands still. How is that even possible in a country where poverty isn't enclaved away for the most part and instead is right in your face.
I don't think it is that black and white. It is pretty obvious to any unprejudiced visitor that there are plenty of middle class and rich people in India. Another thing that attracts them is that the crime rate, corruption and tyranny in other "poor" countries is much worse (e.g.., some places in Africa and South America), but this is generally not openly discussed because the countries are Christian or Islamic, or because it brings up race issues.

I know several people from Eastern Europe and the Middle East who actually found employment opportunities in India much more easily than in their own countries, even on a visa permit.

Regarding the ISKCON "foreigners" in India, their take is very different. If you believe what they say, they find Hindu traditions in the Hare Krishna movement to be the only faith worth having. Many of them today are hard-nosed people from US, UK, Canada, Europe, Australia who genuinely believe that it is the only way to live peacefully in the world, and they are raising families in the ISKCON campuses. There are others who are not religious, but think of Yoga and meditation in the same way. There are also many from Africa (I have met some of them in the US) who try to enter India by any means for a job or education. So it is all relative to your own situation. If you are poor and unemployed and oppressed in India, it is hell. But if you are worse off somewhere else, then it is better than that place. It is the microcosm in which you are in that matters.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I don't think it is that black and white. It is pretty obvious to any unprejudiced visitor that there are plenty of middle class and rich people in India. Another thing that attracts them is that the crime rate, corruption and tyranny in other "poor" countries is much worse (e.g.., some places in Africa and South America), but this is generally not openly discussed because the countries are Christian or Islamic, or because it brings up race issues.

I know several people from Eastern Europe and the Middle East who actually found employment opportunities in India much more easily than in their own countries, even on a visa permit.

Regarding the ISKCON "foreigners" in India, their take is very different. If you believe what they say, they find Hindu traditions in the Hare Krishna movement to be the only faith worth having. Many of them today are hard-nosed people from US, UK, Canada, Europe, Australia who genuinely believe that it is the only way to live peacefully in the world, and they are raising families in the ISKCON campuses. There are others who are not religious, but think of Yoga and meditation in the same way. There are also many from Africa (I have met some of them in the US) who try to enter India by any means for a job or education. So it is all relative to your own situation. If you are poor and unemployed and oppressed in India, it is hell. But if you are worse off somewhere else, then it is better than that place. It is the microcosm in which you are in that matters.
I get all that (duh, I live here) but when they wax eloquent about the powers of Hinduism, does it never occur to them to question why the same Hinduism offers no salvation to the millions of poor in India? To be fair, not just Hinduism but any religion because poverty has multiple religions, castes and languages in India.
 

nyta2

Professional
I get all that (duh, I live here) but when they wax eloquent about the powers of Hinduism, does it never occur to them to question why the same Hinduism offers no salvation to the millions of poor in India? To be fair, not just Hinduism but any religion because poverty has multiple religions, castes and languages in India.
reading this kinda reminds of the quote, "that's the problem with standards, there so many of them"...
a long time ago i took a class comparing religions around the world (i'm roman catholic)...
and on the surface if everyone just followed a single religion, the world would be a better place...
but obviously we've never gotten past any one group actually winning the war on "the best religion evuh".

side note, i sometimes have "what if" conversations, about - what if africa/india somehow united and worked together... wouldn't they become economic powerhouses (like china has become).
from the india standpoint, a number of (indian) friends cited religious differences are the main impediment (and in india religion is woven into the fabric of government - from my understanding anyway)
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I get all that (duh, I live here) but when they wax eloquent about the powers of Hinduism, does it never occur to them to question why the same Hinduism offers no salvation to the millions of poor in India?
Not sure what your question is. Salvation in any religion is not about becoming rich. As far as the issue of why evil and suffering exist, it is the subject of a field called theodesy, and the reason why many dismiss religion on face value (even if evidence exists, which doesn't, but even if it did and you accept religion at face value, it utterly fails to address the reason for suffering and evil). This problem bothered many ancient Hindus, but the most famous person it bothered was St. Augustine. (Buddha turned it upside down by declaring the existence of suffering to be the First Noble Truth.)
 

nyta2

Professional
Most Christians in India are Roman Catholic or Syrian Catholic (I think), with Syrian having nothing to do with Syria.
yeah, main takeaway for india, is that there are *many* religions, and therefore no one can agree on anything (religion or politics).
got any ideas on how to bridge that?
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
yeah, main takeaway for india, is that there are *many* religions, and therefore no one can agree on anything (religion or politics).
got any ideas on how to bridge that?
That is not true. There is lot of agreement on many issues and many differences have nothing to do with religion. Those are simplistic views coming from those who either don't know the reality or have an ulterior motive.

It is always better to have many religions disagreeing with each other than the tyranny which results from a single religion. All religions are wrong, so it is better to have many of them and let them cancel each other out.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Not sure what your question is. Salvation in any religion is not about becoming rich. As far as the issue of why evil and suffering exist, it is the subject of a field called theodesy, and the reason why many dismiss religion on face value (even if evidence exists, which doesn't, but even if it did and you accept religion at face value, it utterly fails to address the reason for suffering and evil). This problem bothered many ancient Hindus, but the most famous person it bothered was St. Augustine. (Buddha turned it upside down by declaring the existence of suffering to be the First Noble Truth.)
Nobody is talking about getting 'rich' but just deliverance from terrible suffering. I know that religion fails to address this. My point is that if somebody does a trip to India, camps out in the Himalayas with a few bearded sadhus and raves about it as if it's magic, it implies that all they care about is that it materially made a difference to their lives and screw the rest. So it is then not very much removed from the Western materialism they were supposedly fleeing from. If they would at least gain a new purpose in life to attempt to do whatever is in their power to alleviate suffering, they would have learnt something from their experience in India. But I am not aware that Jobs went through any such transformation.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
reading this kinda reminds of the quote, "that's the problem with standards, there so many of them"...
a long time ago i took a class comparing religions around the world (i'm roman catholic)...
and on the surface if everyone just followed a single religion, the world would be a better place...
but obviously we've never gotten past any one group actually winning the war on "the best religion evuh".

side note, i sometimes have "what if" conversations, about - what if africa/india somehow united and worked together... wouldn't they become economic powerhouses (like china has become).
from the india standpoint, a number of (indian) friends cited religious differences are the main impediment (and in india religion is woven into the fabric of government - from my understanding anyway)
Religious differences have become a big issue lately but I don't think it was a big disruption for many, many years through the 90s and 00s. You could say that that sort of proves the point because those were go-go years for the Indian economy. But I would say fundamentally the problem is simply with what and who Indians are. We are, at one and the same time, extremely status-conscious and hierarchical people while also being extremely fond of cutting corners and preferring a sloppy but fast outcome to a well designed one. That's a terrible combination and in practice, it leads to a whole class of rent-seekers in the rich and the middle class who wittingly or otherwise support policies that keep the poor repressed in inter generational poverty. When India needed a bailout from IMF in 1991, it was the end of even pretending to use national resources to alleviate poverty. Because the socialist project had failed and turning to capitalism was the only option. That worked out well for some time but over the last decade, we have become a very oligarchic nation all over again.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Nobody is talking about getting 'rich' but just deliverance from terrible suffering. I know that religion fails to address this. My point is that if somebody does a trip to India, camps out in the Himalayas with a few bearded sadhus and raves about it as if it's magic, it implies that all they care about is that it materially made a difference to their lives and screw the rest. So it is then not very much removed from the Western materialism they were supposedly fleeing from. If they would at least gain a new purpose in life to attempt to do whatever is in their power to alleviate suffering, they would have learnt something from their experience in India. But I am not aware that Jobs went through any such transformation.
Many people first start out looking for their own peace and happiness. I don't think it "implies" that they don't care about anyone else. And why do you expect people to be perfect in any case?

More significantly, one of the usually unspoken tenets of Hinduism and Buddhism (there are thousands of verses which will contradict this of course, but it doesn't matter) is that the first step in improving society is knowing and calming your own mind. That is why Yoga and Meditation are catching on all over the world. First paying attention to one's own mental and physical well-being instead of thinking that one is born a sinner and must "help" others and save their souls in order to reach heaven creates a better system.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Many people first start out looking for their own peace and happiness. I don't think it "implies" that they don't care about anyone else. And why do you expect people to be perfect in any case?

More significantly, one of the usually unspoken tenets of Hinduism and Buddhism (there are thousands of verses which will contradict this of course, but it doesn't matter) is that the first step in improving society is knowing and calming your own mind. That is why Yoga and Meditation are catching on all over the world. First paying attention to one's own mental and physical well-being instead of thinking that one is born a sinner and must "help" others and save their souls in order to reach heaven creates a better system.
No, one must help others because it's the right thing to do, not because Jesus said so.

It is not my expectation that people should be perfect. I am simply stating that India has its own problems just like the West. So I really don't get this notion of Indian or Eastern philosophy holding the secrets of life. I am sure if you're living away from India and have the odd bout of homesickness, it feels like a good notion to entertain but it's very difficult for me to entertain that particularly now when I see relatives and friends defend you-know-who even after losing people they knew to covid. I am sorry but if you live in India and keep your eyes and ears open, it is difficult not to see through all this BS. If the charlatans who teach yoga with a posh English accent (you know who I am talking about) won't use their influence to bring people together, then I don't want to hear about the therapeutic benefits of yoga. I use breathing techniques from yoga myself for my well being. But that's all it is. Just a technique like others. No need to glorify it.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
No, one must help others because it's the right thing to do, not because Jesus said so.

It is not my expectation that people should be perfect. I am simply stating that India has its own problems just like the West. So I really don't get this notion of Indian or Eastern philosophy holding the secrets of life. I am sure if you're living away from India and have the odd bout of homesickness, it feels like a good notion to entertain but it's very difficult for me to entertain that particularly now when I see relatives and friends defend you-know-who even after losing people they knew to covid. I am sorry but if you live in India and keep your eyes and ears open, it is difficult not to see through all this BS. If the charlatans who teach yoga with a posh English accent (you know who I am talking about) won't use their influence to bring people together, then I don't want to hear about the therapeutic benefits of yoga. I use breathing techniques from yoga myself for my well being. But that's all it is. Just a technique like others. No need to glorify it.
If Ramdev Ji teaches Yoga and people blame Modi Ji for Covid, that doesn't have much to do with the benefits of Yoga. Yoga goes back to Patanjali and meditation goes back to many Hindu and Buddhist traditions. My father-in-law is a Yoga teacher and a MSc. MPhil. PhD in Yoga. He and others famous pioneers like BKS Iyengar and Pattabhi Jois were teaching Yoga before the modern crop of teachers was born. I don't see any connection between Yoga and meditation and current social or political conditions.

I don't do Yoga or meditation, BTW. I do light stretching every day and then play Internet Tennis at a very high level for exercise.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
If Ramdev Ji teaches Yoga and people blame Modi Ji for Covid, that doesn't have much to do with the benefits of Yoga. Yoga goes back to Patanjali and meditation goes back to many Hindu and Buddhist traditions. My father-in-law is a Yoga teacher and a MSc. MPhil. PhD in Yoga. He and others famous pioneers like BKS Iyengar and Pattabhi Jois were teaching Yoga before the modern crop of teachers was born. I don't see any connection between Yoga and meditation and current social or political conditions.

I don't do Yoga or meditation, BTW. I do light stretching every day and then play Internet Tennis at a very high level for exercise.
No, yoga did not cause these problems but yoga clearly also does not make Indians magically immune to negative emotions like anger, envy or prejudice. And you are well aware that this is what the smooth talking English language yoga practictioners love to claim it can do. They all talk about how Western pursuit of materialism had made the world an unhappy place and how Yoga can deliver you out of it. And that is what I am calling out.
You said it yourself that Jobs came back from India and either became or continued to be a short tempered guy. I know two people who absolutely vouched by yoga were the most temperamental and insecure I had met. It's just meditation. It's just breath in breath out. So don't oversell it. It makes you feel good in the morning as you prepare to take on the day. But so does an hour of tennis.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
No, yoga did not cause these problems but yoga clearly also does not make Indians magically immune to negative emotions like anger, envy or prejudice. And you are well aware that this is what the smooth talking English language yoga practictioners love to claim it can do. They all talk about how Western pursuit of materialism had made the world an unhappy place and how Yoga can deliver you out of it. And that is what I am calling out.
You said it yourself that Jobs came back from India and either became or continued to be a short tempered guy. I know two people who absolutely vouched by yoga were the most temperamental and insecure I had met. It's just meditation. It's just breath in breath out. So don't oversell it. It makes you feel good in the morning as you prepare to take on the day. But so does an hour of tennis.
Tennis is not accessible to most people in India. What are you talking about? It is also not that accessible to most people in the US, and especially older and sicker ones.

Yoga and Pranayama can be done anywhere in a short period of time and require no equipment. Those who do it can have any personality. If a person is very temperamental, maybe he will become slightly less temperamental or maybe not, he may just improve his health a little. It is like any other health activity.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Tennis is not accessible to most people in India. What are you talking about? It is also not that accessible to most people in the US, and especially older and sicker ones.
Tennis is an example. My point is exactly what you have stated below...
Yoga and Pranayama can be done anywhere in a short period of time and require no equipment. Those who do it can have any personality. If a person is very temperamental, maybe he will become slightly less temperamental or maybe not, he may just improve his health a little. It is like any other health activity.
But it's sold as much, much more than a health activity and that is the problem I have with it. Yoga gurus don't stick to teaching yoga but start pontificating about life, philosophy and even management principles as if knowledge of yoga makes them experts in these fields. Why, Sadhguru has even given an opinion on the budget on Economic Times. I don't know if you're aware of these things, of exactly what has been going on in India in recent years.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Tennis is an example. My point is exactly what you have stated below...


But it's sold as much, much more than a health activity and that is the problem I have with it. Yoga gurus don't stick to teaching yoga but start pontificating about life, philosophy and even management principles as if knowledge of yoga makes them experts in these fields. Why, Sadhguru has even given an opinion on the budget on Economic Times. I don't know if you're aware of these things, of exactly what has been going on in India in recent years.
Sad Guru makes me sad, but that is up to each individual. My father-in-law just teaches Yoga. One of his students conducts corporate Yoga classes for companies and government departments. Some Gurus incorporate Yoga into their philosophy. Other Yoga teachers in gyms focus only on physical activity. Many doctors prescribe Yoga purely for the medical benefits. You should choose the teacher who fits your requirements.

There is also the fact that the Yogasutra says that the eighth limb of Yoga is enlightenment. In another place it says devotion to a higher power is good but not required. The very word Yoga means unity with the Divine. It is only since 1600 CE or so that physical asanas became dominant in Yoga over the spiritual side.

So if you want Yoga without the basis in the Yogasutra, that is really your problem. If you expect Physics to be taught without mention of Newton but only referring to his laws as 1,2,3, then the burden is on you. In the US, a lot of effort went into removing all Hindu references from school Yoga in PE classes, starting in California and now recently in Alabama. Committees were created which studied this for years. You can't expect this kind of effort from the regular Yoga teacher in India.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Sad Guru makes me sad, but that is up to each individual. My father-in-law just teaches Yoga. One of his students conducts corporate Yoga classes for companies and government departments. Some Gurus incorporate Yoga into their philosophy. Other Yoga teachers in gyms focus only on physical activity. Many doctors prescribe Yoga purely for the medical benefits. You should choose the teacher who fits your requirements.

There is also the fact that the Yogasutra says that the eighth limb of Yoga is enlightenment. In another place it says devotion to a higher power is good but not required. The very word Yoga means unity with the Divine. It is only since 1600 CE or so that physical asanas became dominant in Yoga over the spiritual side.

So if you want Yoga without the basis in the Yogasutra, that is really your problem. If you expect Physics to be taught without mention of Newton but only referring to his laws as 1,2,3, then the burden is on you. In the US, a lot of effort went into removing all Hindu references from school Yoga in PE classes, starting in California and now recently in Alabama. Committees were created which studied this for years. You can't expect this kind of effort from the regular Yoga teacher in India.
Well, thank you, your analogy to Newton and physics makes my point for me. Nothing more needed to say.
 
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