Federer on most lists. This is what kills about 40-15.
He's one of the best servers of all time but served very average when he was leading 40-15. He should have gone for the kill.
Becker had the best ever flat serve. Ask Agassi and Sampras bud. Yes guys did hit bigger serves eventually in 90s although NOT Sampras but that Becker flat serve was unplayable on fast courts due to his grip.You keep pushing your wacky narrative about the Becker serve and I really take no joy in shooting it down as Boris was my own 1st tennis idol and remains one of my top 3 faves ever (along with Pete and Novak), but he most certainly did NOT have "the best flat serve on deuce and out wide on ad side of all time."
In fact it's quite debatable whether he was the best server of his own era. I've got a busload of stats from dozens of Mac's matches and I can tell you the guy would regularly win 35-40% of his service points outright as his opponent would struggle to read that motion of his. And we're talking late '70s to mid'-80s, when many top players including Mac himself till after '81 were playing with wood and didn't score anywhere near as many free points on serve. Put prime Mac in Boris' heyday and chances are these two go neck and neck in the unreturned-serve race.
And while stats for Zivojinovic are harder to come by a simple eye test would tell you the guy served even harder than Boom Boom, in fact as hard as anybody today (I'd go so far as to say harder than anyone currently active period). And as Moose just pointed out Bobo at '87 Wimbleedon was serving up aces at an unprecedented pace, including 26 in the 3rd round vs. Bates where he also had 50.9% of his serves unreturned. From a quick glance the only times Boris topped that % were in the 1988 DC SF vs. Bobo himself (57.3%) and in the '92 YEC RR vs. Pete (53.3%). As a stand-alone shot Bobo's serve was probably as good, if not even better.
Oh and Curren demolished Connors - you know, the same guy who'd play Boris tough even in his late years - with 17 aces in the '85 Wimby SF where Jimbo failed to put a whopping 57.6% of Kev's serves back in. Such a % was virtually unheard of back then, and Curren did it against the best returner in a major SF. He also handed Jimbo another L and 33 aces in '83 with wood, though that 4th-rounder was a more competitive 4-setter.
And that's just the '80s. You still would bet your guy has the best serve of all time? I sure wouldn't.
This is great new info... but I want the full count! Do you have it?
These are good picks, though what little I've got for Kyrgios ain't up to Krajicek's almost robotic standard. Need to study Muller (and Arthurs) more before I can render a verdict.
Is that why they have such stellar careers bud?Well they go a step further and avoid going down break point to begin with.
They have a million flaws in their games.Is that why they have such stellar careers bud?
They rarely ace out of trouble.They have a million flaws in their games.
The ability to ace their way out of break points is not one of them.
At this point NonP is the expert authority on all things servebot. That's a lot of work you've done over the years crunching the numbers!I know it's a complete waste of time trying to educate most of these jokers, but for the remaining few who actually care to learn:
OE #1 is indeed Pistol. The likes of Karlovic, Isner, Raonic and Kyrgios might be more dangerous day to day, and even as a fan I'd long resisted putting Pete atop Ivo and Goran, but what matters is whether you can bring your best against the strongest competition and that's where Sampras towers over the rest. Actually forget about Sampras, Goran at '01 Wimbledon aced his opponents more than Ivo or Isner in their own '15/'18 Wimby runs through corresponding rounds.
Three more things you likely aren't very familiar with:
1) Contrary to received wisdom re: surface "slowdown" service stats across the board have been creeping up, thanks to the extra spin made possible by today's more powerful racquets. That's why, among other things, you don't see many top players average less than 60% on 1st serves these days, whereas the opposite held true in the '90s.
2) Aces are nice but a more accurate barometer of serving prowess is % of serves that aren't returned by the opponent, and while the two stats generally go hand in hand Sampras (or Roddick for that matter) got an unusually higher proportion of the latter than most servers. In fact he had a whopping 50.8% of his serves unreturned in his seven Wimbledon finals, when even a Karlovic, Isner or Raonic often fails to clear the 50% mark on grass in non-pressure situations. Suffice it to say it's unlikely any of these servebots matches Pete's % across 7 Wimby finals vs. comparable opponents.
3) The ATP counted aces and DFs twice for most GS matches of the '90s, which has led to some of you regurgitating the howler that Pete friggin' Sampras won a lesser % of 2nd-serve points than the likes of (just to name a few) Delpo, Nishi, Thiem, Gasquet, Coric, Millman, Sock and Monaco. Fortunately a brave soul in @slice serve ace has completed the herculean task of (mostly) correcting the %s for the top '90s guys:
2nd serve pts won for 1992-1999 - corrected stats
those not familliar with the issue can read through this thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=207411 and this grand slam matches on atp site, for whatever reason, counted aces and double faults twice from 1992 untill US Open 1999...from that tournament on stats are...tt.tennis-warehouse.com
And that's despite Pistol S&Ving on a lot more 2nd serves than any baseliner then and now which almost certainly brought down his average. In short there's no one since Newcombe whose 2nd serve was anywhere near the same weapon as Pistol's. (And before you say Isner, check out his SF vs. Anderson and then try to tell me with a straight face Pete wouldn't have done more damage with his own 2nd serve.)
More in-depth (linked) explanations in the OP here:
Greatest Serves of All Time
I've noticed that among the zillion GOAT threads in this forum there isn't a single comprehensive one ranking the greatest serves ever (for real), and since the serve is this sport's one shot that's least affected by outside variables (including racquets and strings) I've decided to create a new...tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Any of these guys could outserve another on a given day and the list is a perpetual work in progress, but it's definitely a whole lot better than the ATP's bogus "Serve Rating" most of you take as gospel. I suggest you check out some of my dissertations in that OP if you really care to find out more.
"You should have gone for the line"He's one of the best servers of all time but served very average when he was leading 40-15. He should have gone for the kill.
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He should’ve treated his second serve like another first serve. Miss it? No matter, you have 2 more first serves until deuce.He's one of the best servers of all time but served very average when he was leading 40-15. He should have gone for the kill.
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I think devoting your life to the history of the manila envelope would be more exciting work than learning the ways of the servebot.At this point NonP is the expert authority on all things servebot. That's a lot of work you've done over the years crunching the numbers!
Great post. #1 in particular is a point that is often overlooked.I know it's a complete waste of time trying to educate most of these jokers, but for the remaining few who actually care to learn:
OE #1 is indeed Pistol. The likes of Karlovic, Isner, Raonic and Kyrgios might be more dangerous day to day, and even as a fan I'd long resisted putting Pete atop Ivo and Goran, but what matters is whether you can bring your best against the strongest competition and that's where Sampras towers over the rest. Actually forget about Sampras, Goran at '01 Wimbledon aced his opponents more than Ivo or Isner in their own '15/'18 Wimby runs through corresponding rounds.
Three more things you likely aren't very familiar with:
1) Contrary to received wisdom re: surface "slowdown" service stats across the board have been creeping up, thanks to the extra spin made possible by today's more powerful racquets. That's why, among other things, you don't see many top players average less than 60% on 1st serves these days, whereas the opposite held true in the '90s.
2) Aces are nice but a more accurate barometer of serving prowess is % of serves that aren't returned by the opponent, and while the two stats generally go hand in hand Sampras (or Roddick for that matter) got an unusually higher proportion of the latter than most servers. In fact he had a whopping 50.8% of his serves unreturned in his seven Wimbledon finals, when even a Karlovic, Isner or Raonic often fails to clear the 50% mark on grass in non-pressure situations. Suffice it to say it's unlikely any of these servebots matches Pete's % across 7 Wimby finals vs. comparable opponents.
3) The ATP counted aces and DFs twice for most GS matches of the '90s, which has led to some of you regurgitating the howler that Pete friggin' Sampras won a lesser % of 2nd-serve points than the likes of (just to name a few) Delpo, Nishi, Thiem, Gasquet, Coric, Millman, Sock and Monaco. Fortunately a brave soul in @slice serve ace has completed the herculean task of (mostly) correcting the %s for the top '90s guys:
2nd serve pts won for 1992-1999 - corrected stats
those not familliar with the issue can read through this thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=207411 and this grand slam matches on atp site, for whatever reason, counted aces and double faults twice from 1992 untill US Open 1999...from that tournament on stats are...tt.tennis-warehouse.com
And that's despite Pistol S&Ving on a lot more 2nd serves than any baseliner then and now which almost certainly brought down his average. In short there's no one since Newcombe whose 2nd serve was anywhere near the same weapon as Pistol's. (And before you say Isner, check out his SF vs. Anderson and then try to tell me with a straight face Pete wouldn't have done more damage with his own 2nd serve.)
More in-depth (linked) explanations in the OP here:
Greatest Serves of All Time
I've noticed that among the zillion GOAT threads in this forum there isn't a single comprehensive one ranking the greatest serves ever (for real), and since the serve is this sport's one shot that's least affected by outside variables (including racquets and strings) I've decided to create a new...tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Any of these guys could outserve another on a given day and the list is a perpetual work in progress, but it's definitely a whole lot better than the ATP's bogus "Serve Rating" most of you take as gospel. I suggest you check out some of my dissertations in that OP if you really care to find out more.
Relatively quick and simple motion and he could place the ball anywhere in the service box. It's one of my favorites next to Krajicek's. Only wish I could serve even half as well.Good call on Pim Pim. I never watched much of him, was his serve really as good as I've heard?