You're doing too much - of simplicity of swings and footwork

[ChaelAZ]

I've posted about this before, but was watching some court level play of Mannarino again lately, and started down this path again.

That is, two things always stick out to me and they are simplicity of swing and footwork/fitness being more key.

There are a lot of posts about take-back, coil, pendulums, lag, wrist, etc., but to me any strokes combination that gets a rec player at level or below the ball, has a linear or upward (brush, if you have to) path, and a forward contact point is going to yield similar results - some more power/spin/etc. But with all that, if the focus is on being in and placed well any level of that can be competitive, especially in rec tennis. Also with all that, I think rec player tend to complicate things. Anywho, I'll just let you watch some Mannarino play as an example of simple stroke mechanics, but also of the importance of footwork and fitness.


Posted this in another thread somewhere just a bit ago, but a fun watch.

This caught my eye again last year.

Not trying to overpower anyone, just spin and placement.

One more

That 20lbs tension is for another discussion! lol.

 

[andytennis123]

I’m with you that this probably the optimal way to play for us aging rec players. But it’s fun pushing yourself to try and learn more complex technique to hit the ball harder, which makes tennis so much more satisfying, even if it’s not the optimal way to win

 

[Curious]

His forehand take back is so small that he gets an extra 2 minutes before swinging forward!

 

[johnmccabe]

One of the most important and difficult things in tennis (learning and match) is focusing on the right items. Easy to say, so hard to do especially under pressure.

 

[onehandbh]

His forehand take back is so small that he gets an extra 2 minutes before swinging forward!

His prep/unit turn and movement is good. He doesn't have blazing speed, but he is efficient and takes many balls early and hits pretty flat on his backhand side.

 

[Curious]

His prep/unit turn and movement is good. He doesn't have blazing speed, but he is efficient and takes many balls early and hits pretty flat on his backhand side.

I think his unit turn is lesser than other pros as well. Left hand and racket much more on the hitting side and uses racket flip to create pace. Also shows us that the swing doesn’t necessarily need to be inside out!

And of course I got inspired by him a while ago.

 

[ey039524]

The trick to his technique is to play opponents who supply all the pace. Then you can use a half swing, and the ball still comes off your racquet w pace.

I do this against my son's serve. I practice returns when he practices his serve, and I purposely use half a take back and full follow through. 30 lb mains and 26 lbs crosses, too.

 

[jxs653]

The trick to his technique is to play opponents who supply all the pace. Then you can use a half swing, and the ball still comes off your racquet w pace.

What if your opponent doesn't supply pace? Then this half swing is not effective?

I think the point is that the simplified swing is effective regardless, not opponent-dependent.

 

[johnmccabe]

The trick to his technique is to play opponents who supply all the pace. Then you can use a half swing, and the ball still comes off your racquet w pace.

I do this against my son's serve. I practice returns when he practices his serve, and I purposely use half a take back and full follow through. 30 lb mains and 26 lbs crosses, too.

Not necessarily. If you hit through the ball enough instead of brushing too thin, there should be enough power with the help of the right racquet string set up. This style is not going to work for baseline basher for sure.

 

[Curious]

The trick to his technique is to play opponents who supply all the pace. Then you can use a half swing, and the ball still comes off your racquet w pace.

This style is not going to work for baseline basher for sure.

Even from zero pace balls you can create pace with his technique if you can time the whip at the wrist.

 

[Dragy]

Not necessarily. If you hit through the ball enough instead of brushing too thin, there should be enough power with the help of the right racquet string set up. This style is not going to work for baseline basher for sure.

The biggest issue with this style on rec level is facing decent topspin moonballer. Especially on high-bouncing surface. All simplicity goes out of the window.

 

[ey039524]

I guess pace is relative. If you're taking half a swing, you won't be getting as much pace as a full swing, all other things being equal. Frame and strings, along w opponent's pace have to supply that lost power.

Mannarino is definitely using opponent's pace.

 

[Curious]

I guess pace is relative. If you're taking half a swing, you won't be getting as much pace as a full swing, all other things being equal. Frame and strings, along w opponent's pace have to supply that lost power.

Mannarino is definitely using opponent's pace.

A full swing doesn’t necessarily result in fast racket speed. A compact whippy swing can still produce a lot of pace. Think of guys like Fognini, Fritz, Rublev for example. Mannarino has a whip on his forehand.

 

[ey039524]

A full swing doesn’t necessarily result in fast racket speed. A compact whippy swing can still produce a lot of pace. Think of guys like Fognini, Fritz, Rublev for example. Mannarino has a whip on his forehand.

I agree that whipping the wrist will add pace. To put fognini and rublev in the same group is erroneous (totally different: fognini, yes, small take back; rublev, huge take back).

 

[ballmachineguy]

The flip of the racquet and the wrist do not produce ball velocity.

 

[johnmccabe]

Even from zero pace balls you can create pace with his technique if you can time the whip at the wrist.

It is relative. definitely higher racquet head speed with big loop, everything else being equal. I'm just not super obsessed with max pace.

 

[Curious]

Some are even more compact than Mannarino!

 

[ChaelAZ]

Some are even more compact than Mannarino!

He just competed in his first pro tourney I believe.

 

[TennisCJC]

There are a lot of comments here about how you cannot get a high paced or high spin shot with Mannarino's compact take back and loop to contact. I disagree. You can get a lot of pace and spin if you have a decent core rotation and lift without a big take back or a big loop. If your weight transfer is good and the core rotation drives the stroke, you can easily hit high pace and high spin rates. At times, even Federer uses a very small prep and loop and he crushes the ball.

 

[TennisCJC]

I think the small loop is a great way for rec players to play personally. There's plenty of pace and spin to be had if you transfer weight and use core rotation and you won't get caught as late or shank as many balls. The ball will be easier to time.

 

[Curious]

Compact everything. Such a good idea.

 

[user92626]

Compact everything. Such a good idea.

Are you still heavily focused on stroke mechanics?

You'll never move onto the art of footwork, movements, shot variety, etc.? Oh man you're missing out.

 

[Curious]

Are you still heavily focused on stroke mechanics?

You'll never move onto the art of footwork, movements, shot variety, etc.? Oh man you're missing out.

I see you’re in trolling mode today. Got nothing better to do I guess.

 

[user92626]

I see you’re in trolling mode today. Got nothing better to do I guess.

Absolutely not. I am reveling in the fact that I was able to move forward.

My tennis feels better and thus I'm in chatty mode. It's like I wanna share... the water is great on this side of the lake, too.

Nevertheless, I am amazed by your insistence and persistence with stroke mechanics. That's a sort of passion.

 

[Curious]

Absolutely not. I am reveling in the fact that I was able to move forward.

My tennis feels better and thus I'm in chatty mode. It's like I wanna share... the water is great on this side of the lake, too.

Nevertheless, I am amazed by your insistence and persistence with stroke mechanics. That's a sort of passion.

Good on you. I am amazed that you’re missing that the whole tennis is my passion.

 

[Clay lover]

@zill would love you

 

[vokazu]

I find when I simplify a groundstroke it becomes inconsistent in the long run. When I use proper footwork and full unit turn, the power and the net clearance is more consistent.

 

[user92626]

Good on you. I am amazed that you’re missing that the whole tennis is my passion.

That's what I thought. Whole. Turns out it's only the strokes.
Hence my amazement.

Hey I'm onto timing and volleying. I tend to get lazy in thinking, like it can wait. No more. I'm gonna speed up everything. Learn with urgency. So tired of being second rated at my court.

 

[user92626]

I find when I simplify a groundstroke it becomes inconsistent in the long run. When I use proper footwork and full unit turn, the power and the net clearance is more consistent.

For me it's all about mental exercise. Like if I wanna play well I have to constantly do a lot of mental exercise.

For example, I have to remind myself: for serve return, shorten the swing.

Opponent hits, must SS. Then chase the bounce. Then, execute a type of stroke per shot requirement. Remember to recover to the center but stop and SS as opponent starts his hit. It's a goddamn lot of remembering. LOL

 

[Curious]

That's what I thought. Whole. Turns out it's only the strokes.
Hence my amazement.

Hey I'm onto timing and volleying. I tend to get lazy in thinking, like it can wait. No more. I'm gonna speed up everything. Learn with urgency. So tired of being second rated at my court.

Move to the ball. Don’t wait for it to come to you. Even on return of serves.

 

[user92626]

Move to the ball. Don’t wait for it to come to you. Even on return of serves.

I will apply this on my volley. It's a concept.

On ground strokes, I'm already moving to the ball via my concept of intercepting the bounce. Right?

 

[Curious]

I will apply this on my volley. It's a concept.

On ground strokes, I'm already moving to the ball via my concept of intercepting the bounce. Right?

It’s another way of approaching hitting out in front. The ball is coming to you and you say ‘I’m not afraid of you. I’m coming to you as well’. Sort of.

 

[user92626]

It’s another way of approaching hitting out in front. The ball is coming to you and you say ‘I’m not afraid of you. I’m coming to you as well’. Sort of.

OK. I see. That's gonna require some quickness, like, be fast and/or catch the ball early out in front. It's assertive, aggressive or taking control instead of wait and see or passive.

 

[Curious]

OK. I see. That's gonna require some quickness, like, be fast and/or catch the ball early out in front. It's assertive, aggressive or taking control instead of wait and see or passive.

Exactly.
Here are two great videos from Karue about this topic.

 

[user92626]

It’s another way of approaching hitting out in front. The ball is coming to you and you say ‘I’m not afraid of you. I’m coming to you as well’. Sort of.

Question for you and others,

So how exactly do you implement hitting out in front?

Look at the clip below. It looks like the guys run in front of the ball and then (most of the time) wait for the ball to drop a little --to be into their strike zone?-- before they contact. Yeah? Or is it just optical illusion?

 

[Curious]

Question for you and others,

So how exactly do you implement hitting out in front?

Look at the clip below. It looks like the guys run in front of the ball and then (most of the time) wait for the ball to drop a little --to be into their strike zone?-- before they contact. Yeah? Or is it just optical illusion?

It’s like 45 degrees to the hitting side of torso (in front and lateral ), isn’t it?
To me, what Karue says: actively move forward to meet the ball, not just wait. Well, if you’re lucky to be at the perfect spot at the beginning I guess you could just wait.

Btw Karue says somewhere that even if you need to move back, you should do that fast so that you still have time to lean forward to meet the ball out in front. Interesting eh?

 

[vokazu]

Move to the ball. Don’t wait for it to come to you. Even on return of serves.

That's why for me, I prioritize footwork (get into position) and consistent take back and follow through.

 

[Dragy]

So how exactly do you implement hitting out in front?

I like how Ian puts it here. Not discussing Djokovic and Sinner though, so might not qualify for our level of competence

 

[ey039524]

Footwork is paramount. Karue beat Winston w a $15 Walmart racquet. He said his footwork is enough to beat any club player.

I got suckered into playing a lower level live ball last week. My positioning at the net is not something the other players were used to. I was able to intercept a lot of balls for winners.

 

[ichaseballs]

didn't Karue also win using a saber racquet. that seems to be more of a handicap imo