Zverev Dominating Clay in ....

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Meles, Apr 17, 2017.

?

Zverev makes his first French Open Final in

This poll will close on Apr 17, 2021 at 8:15 AM.
  1. 2017

    9.1%
  2. 2018

    27.3%
  3. 2019

    27.3%
  4. 2020

    9.1%
  5. 2021

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. 2022 or later

    9.1%
  7. never makes final

    18.2%
  1. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Looked quite at home in first match at Monte Carlo with easy win over Seppi.

    2016 early hard court stats:
    TOTALS Match Tiebreak Ace% 1stIn 1st% 2nd% SPW RPW TPW DR
    [x] Early 2016 Hard courts 10-8 (56%) 7-8 (47%) 9.3% 64.2% 71.8% 51.2% 64.4% 34.5% 49.6% 0.97
    2016 clay:
    TOTALS............................. Match Tiebreak Ace% 1stIn 1st% 2nd% SPW RPW TPW DR
    [x] 2016 Spring clay 13-6 (68%) 3-4 (43%) 5.4% 61.1% 69.0% 51.5% 62.2% 39.8% 51.1% 1.05
    late 2016 -2017 hard:
    TOTALS .............................. Match Tiebreak Ace% 1stIn 1st% 2nd% SPW RPW TPW DR
    [x] 2016 US Open into 2017 22-9 (71%) 11-6 (65%) 9.6% 60.6% 74.1% 54.0% 66.2% 37.0% 51.8% 1.09

    Zverev's early 2016 hard courts was very promising. Zed then made a nice leap on clay followed by an excellent grass court season. Now in 2017 he's made a huge leap on hard courts from 49.6% points won to 51.8%. Is clay Zverev's best surface? Will he make a similar leap on clay like he did in 2016 and win over 53% of his points on clay in 2017? Things are looking very good and Zverev is set to cause a lot of trouble this year on clay though his stamina is not where it needs to be to make it to a French Open final even if he produces on the stats. 2019 will be his first RG final and expecting a Masters 1000 win on clay before then maybe even this year if the top players continue to struggle.:D @veroniquem and @Zebrev approved.;)
     
    #1
  2. RF-18

    RF-18 G.O.A.T.

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    He'll win RG I think.
     
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  3. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    He will never ever win a GS tournament.

    Remember these words.
     
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    #3
  4. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Nope, he won't.

    I'm german, but that boy is such an idiot.
     
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  5. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well what year does he make first final and what about this year? Do you think he's really a clay court player? Kyrgios to me is very much like the thought of Sampras on clay. Zverev has some returning prowess already in 2016. 39.8% return points won is not exactly stunning, but it was better than Wawrinka in 2016.o_O Looking for a big leap on both serve and return this year.
     
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  6. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    So are you predicting he never makes a final?;)
     
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  7. Noelan

    Noelan Hall of Fame

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    dunno but has the game that's for sure.
    Destroyed Seppi,a decent clay court player
     
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  8. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    What does being an idiot have to do with it? Care to flesh out your position. Zverev sort of has a pervasive sour look on his face much of the time, but mentally about as tough as it gets.
     
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    #8
  9. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict Talk Tennis Guru

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    Which year ?
     
    #9
  10. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Not sure about that.
    He got the game to do so, but his mentality is disgusting, on court behaviour even worse.
    I don't know, a final is possible, but winning it?
    I think he could be a Cilic type of guy.
     
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  11. Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

    Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil G.O.A.T.

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    Not before Thiem breaks all of Nadal's records.
     
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  12. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    I saw bits and pieces of that match and what really struck me today was the ease with which he was hitting hard forehands on clay. He seems less rushed and plenty of power to hit winners from both sides. Seppi was lucky to hold serve a few times. We've all seen him get hot on hard courts with the forehand, but generally its a weak shot under pressure with deep, hard shots from the opponent. He'll do shockingly well if it continues to be a weapon on clay. His serve is a lot bigger than it was this time last year too. Seeing lots of weak returns meeting up with that forehand, 65% first serving or so, and he's going to be a load for anyone. I believe he'll be able to hit through Nadal if their R16 match comes through at Monte Carlo.:p I'm not so sure Nadal will break Zverev at a high enough rate. Clay is a young man's game.;)
     
    #12
  13. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well I deliberately put the poll on final because Thiem may be problematic for a few years. I also think late in his career at age 26 or so Zverev may start to lose enough of his speed that return will decline too much to win. Despite an over 3.5 year age gap, Zverev's height makes them much closer allowing him to succeed earlier, but perhaps slip from greatness earlier too. Thiem may be left picking up the scraps.:eek: I don't see anyone really touching these two in the long run on the horizon except perhaps Ruud, but his return game is shockingly poor.:oops: Maybe Nadal is returning to greatness this year and will continue to be in the mix, but I think Rafa needs to adapt to hard courts to last like Fed. I think Rosewall was the last older clay champion?:confused:
     
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  14. Noelan

    Noelan Hall of Fame

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    Today everything worked in his game, serve, FH, BH, transition to the net, defense..
    Dunno about Nadal , lets see how match up will work on clay
     
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    #14
  15. I like Zverev. Probably my favorite young gun that's out there. Great attitude for his age. I could see him get to any of the major finals say in 2 to 3 years?
     
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    #15
  16. Zebrev

    Zebrev Professional

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    Zverev will win the CGS, I'm certain of it. His game works on every surface! :D:D:D
     
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  17. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well in Miami he seemed quite composed with Kyrgios. He did get bent out of shape once, but quickly got back on track. Strong win over Tsonga on indoor hard courts too this year where Zverev's returning decided the match. He's up nearly 2% on serve points won on hard courts from early 2016. As he develops attacking game (Mischa all over the net these days) and his forehand that number is sure to be pushing 68% points won next year which puts him close to prime Cilic. He looks much better on clay than Cilic. Return game over last 52 weeks slightly better already. Gap wider for 2017 so far over Cilic. Years of improving stats almost assured through 2020 when Zverev turns 23. His potential is jaw dropping if forehand and attacking game develop further. They are weaknesses just becoming less weak right now.
     
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  18. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Great attitude? What?

    You mean the GERMAN kid who got booed in Hamburg in front of his homecrowd for his disgusting attitude?
     
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  19. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    I think US Open will be the most challenging, but he'll have plenty of time as that is the surface he'll be most viable on in his dotage.:eek: He challenged Kyrgios at Miami this year so he's got time to catch up with him in the long run. Returning is key. Zed's been a bit poor this year, but for a nice run last fall he was up around 41% on return points. He'll be Safin on steroids if he starts nipping anywhere near 40% on return points.:D Complete opposite work ethic from Safin won't hurt him at all.
     
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  20. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Quite a disgusting display by the crowd booing a fresh poking future slam winner.o_O He's Russian transplant so maybe deep down inside the crowd views him as a fake German.:oops:
     
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  21. He's got a better attitude than most of the other young guys.
     
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  22. Zebrev

    Zebrev Professional

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    Do you see any similarities with Soderling? Heavy hitter on Clay?
     
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  23. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well his height bodes well on clay especially when it comes to playing Nadal on Thursday (see Soderling for beating Nadal on clay;)). Soderling was relentless with his power on groundies. Zverev's return is likely to be much better. Soderling peaked in his 25th and 26th years on clay. Zverev will be a class above Soderling even on clay. Grass way better. Hard courts too. His forehands today looked more of a weapon than Soderling; we know his backhand is amazing. Soderling was power all the time. Zverev is developing into much, much more. Zverev is inherently a defensive player (much like a stretch Djokovic) while Soderling was much more offensively minded go for broke. Good groundies and height are the biggest similarities.
     
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  24. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Who do you consider a young gun?
    I agree if you are talking about Kyrgios, although he got a better game than Zverev, but besides him?

    Tiafoe and Thiem have a much better attitude.
    Even Fritz.
     
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  25. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    No, the behaviour of the crowd was very appropriate.

    I guess you didn't watch that particular match.

    If he wasn't german he would've been totally destroyed by the crowd.
     
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  26. SpinToWin

    SpinToWin G.O.A.T.

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    No. Germans just aren't especially nationalistic. Has to do with our history. And we generally dislike arrogant stuck up pricks.

    It'd be different if Z was French and he was playing in Marseille.
     
    #26
  27. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Being taller than Soderling bound to help him against Rafa's heavy spin game. I suspect he's got a matchup advantage. Everyone's like Nadal is much better on clay, but this has been the case for Zverev too, so it should be a great match.

    Fedal vs. Kyrgios was quite a story on hard courts. Expecting Djokodal versus Thiem and Zverev to be a similar plot on clay. Its rare to have these kind of age gaps on tour with older players still in their prime. It just doesn't happen until this year, now we have the new Big 3 poking around with the oldsters.:p
     
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  28. Zebrev

    Zebrev Professional

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    I agree with your analysis, @Meles. I used to think Zverev could naturally adapt his game into a more serve and volley style as he gets older, and add to his longevity, however now I think he'll be a young champion. He'll probably have around 5 -7 years at the very top, until around 2025 say, and then he'll encounter problems with his knees and back. Doesn't mean he can't dominate in the coming years, and go on an insane run like Djokovic did. And we could always be pleasantly surprised if he is still playing at the top at age 30, you never know! ;):D:D
     
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  29. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Sounds like that was the last one you watched.;) He must have been pretty dissapointed after 2014 Hamburg. Zverev was very shakey much of last Summer after Wimbledon.
     
    #29
  30. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    I even saw him live in action in the Davis Cup against Rosol.
    He got beaten in straights, didn't even have a slight chance, crushed rackets and was constantly whining.
    That was 2016.
     
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  31. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    For Zed and Nick its all about how good they can get on return. If they are marginal returners at their speed peak around 23-24 then the loss of speed may turn them into servebots in their later 20s. Nick is shorter and Zed has the build of a stick insect so they may cheat this fate and the injuries that have plagued a player like Raonic. Sascha is in excellent hands with Jez Green. Surely the family has learned something from Mischa's travails.:confused: They pulled him at end of last season and I think he will be fine and perhaps as injury free as Djokovic.:p Anyway, keep an eye on his return game.
     
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  32. young guns to me are like guys 20 or younger.
     
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  33. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Zverev is very young and he'll improve (even Kyrgios has recently). Think McEnroe and Connors; its alright.:D He's going to be great and you'll come around.;)

    So if he beats Rafa Thursday, you're not getting on the bandwagon?:p
     
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  34. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Just out of curiosity, why do you like him so much?
    He's just another ball basher who camps at the baseline.
    Sure, sometimes he attacks the net, but overall his game is as boring as Murray's or Nole's, although effective.

    Kyrgios might not be very likeable as well, but his game is interesting.
     
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  35. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Nope.
    I still remember that forehand volley even I wouldn't have missed against Rafa at IW last year.
    I'm still surprised he didn't totally collapse after that.
     
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    #35
  36. InsideOut900

    InsideOut900 Professional

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    No guy who is 2 meter tall has clay as his best surface. It is either grass(or could be) or slow HC(my guess based on his matches against Nadal there). I don't need stats for that. His movement is not good enough for the dirt.
    Surely didn't watch Soderling closely.
    I caught a rerun of his semi against Gonzo back in 2009 and he hit like 10+ clean winners off the BH return. Scary good. And unlike Zverev, he was nearly impossible to overpower, the way to beat him was with angles and depth to exploit his movement.

    Other than movement(Soderling had long arms and knew how to slide, but was kind of slow) and possibly return, Zverev can be a class above Robin on clay.

    With this in mind I have no doubt Zverev will be a top tier Claycourter if no one else makes a breakthrough. I think beginning next year he can already start having big wins in Majors and perhaps make the FO final from 2019 on.

    More like Berdych, little resemblance with Soderling other than power on groundies.
     
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    #36
  37. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    That definition is a bit tired and old; time to add a few years. Thiem's last year as young gun was 2016. He's proven himself somewhat and its time to become a big boy. This is Kyrgios's last year as a gun or maybe into next year.:oops: If you're living for a 18-19 year old to dominate the sport, Zverev is the closest thing we're likely to see in a long time.
     
    #37
  38. alright it may be closer to say 22 or 22.5 but once you turn 23 you oughta be taking the sport by the balls.
     
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  39. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    That was a choke, but I'm not aware of many more. Zverev is massively improved from that time last year as the stats show. Perhaps you'll have something to despond about on Thursday versus Rafa; should be great match.
     
    #39
  40. Mr Feeny

    Mr Feeny Semi-Pro

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    What bothers you about him? The showboating?
     
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  41. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Just to place your comments, what do you think about Rafa's current level?
    Let's be fair and take his level in 2013/2014 as comparison, not his unbeatable days in 07/08.
     
    #41
  42. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    I believe time is up for Thiem. This is the clay season where he really needs to make waves or he's just going to be at best another Muster. (Muster layed waste on clay in his 28th year in 1995. That's 2021 season for Thiem.:oops:)
     
    #42
  43. Mr Feeny

    Mr Feeny Semi-Pro

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    He yelled at the umpire multiple times though. He all but gave up before the match as he told the umpire "you cost me the match. Do u realize that!" at a changeover.

    Then there's was the hands thing that he kept doing whenever he lobbed Kyrgios. Although, I'm not sure showboating is a problem. It wouldn't stop him from being a champion.
     
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  44. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Surion would go insane if Kyrgios were German
    [​IMG]
     
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  45. Mr Feeny

    Mr Feeny Semi-Pro

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    I dare anyone to say they didn't burst out laughing when they saw that. It's one of the most cringeworthy things I've ever seen!
     
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  46. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    Rough spot. He came back pretty well and made Kyrgios work to serve out the 3rd set. Given their IW encounter it was an amazing effort for Zverev. I am expecting hard courts to be Zverev's worst surface for years to come. Prime hunting right now for Zed on clay and grass.:eek:
     
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  47. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    haha. That's Tricky Nicky when he's into a match. He's rather amazing to watch as his body language is hysterical. The most rivetting personality the game has ever seen so I hope he stays at the next level. He's going to be amazing for the game if that is the cringeworthy we need to worry about.
     
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  48. rainingaces

    rainingaces Legend

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    A walking ego, I find many other players riveting. Nick has a one dimensional personality, a big ego.

    I think Fognini is a many times more charismatic and intelligent player, Roger too.
     
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  49. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Why that?
     
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  50. Meles

    Meles Talk Tennis Guru

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    I agree his game has a boring side (he's really very much like Djoko from the ground). I enjoy tennis stats. Watching stats decline is important, but its far more interesting to watch a player on the ascension.

    Kyrgios for example is progressing, but the clock is ticking. Next year is his speed peak and if he doesn't get his return game up a notch his stay if any will be much shorter at the top (see Roddick.)

    Zverev has a two year advantage on Kyrgios and already a better return game. Mark my words this clay season is huge for him. 2017 clay should be his best surface stats yet. If not, then we set our sights a bit lower, but he still has time. Zverev stock should be moving up through 2020 at a minimum on return. Conservatively he'll be better than Cilic. Big 5 are on their last legs and really only Thiem, Kyrgios, and maybe, maybe Pouille (doubt it) appear to be set to stop Zverev. The numbers game looks great for him.:cool:
     
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