Zverev is clearly better than Djokovic and would have beat him in the AO final - Toni Nadal
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
Vincent-C
Legend
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Could his FH cope with mine? Thats the TTW burning debate!!
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Kind of like Kyrgios?
Vincent-C
Legend
Nicky can / could play, though; a massive talent. I was recently watching his USO '18 match with Fred, and the latter
was so tight, *nervous as hell*- I think the great man missed his first seven topspin backhands. That match was on NK's
racket, and Fred knew it.. too bad Kyrgios was always a bit afraid of winning (the fact, and the concept). I empathize with NK. Very good commentary by Jimmy Arias, too (yes, I know TTW- for some reason, minus me- hates Arias). In fact, here's that match:
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Hitman
Bionic Poster
I re-watched this match recently myself. I think Federer figured him out, earlier in their rivalry Nick was having his way more.
Vincent-C
Legend
Yes. Freddy say "stay innit, and wait for the storm to pass." NK only got him once- as I'm sure you know.
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Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
No, Toni is salty bc Djokovic is still making Slam Finals and Rafa’s last was RG2022
Djoko is only a year younger, so there’s zero doubt now that his longevity is far beyond Rafa’s
So in terms of longevity, Rafa is about to be in a distant third and Toni doesn’t like it.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Yes, I speak more about the way Nick was allowed to play a lot more on his own terms, why Fed took away from him piece by piece, brick by brick with each following match, with the odd tight classic like Miami 2017.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I think there is some truth to this, Toni cannot be too pleased seeing Novak making slam finals at an age that Rafa was already officially retired.
And yes, while Rafa gets the flowers for being the better youngster of the three, he falls behind the other two when it comes to longevity.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Clearly? Strange thing to say.
Zverev probably would've won, but I'm severely doubting that he beats the breaks off Djokovic. I'd give a solid 20% chance of a clear Djokovic victory, a 30% chance of a clear Zverev victory, and a 50% chance of a close-fought match where one pulls out a victory in a tough 4 setter or 5 setter, so something like 55-45 Zverev or 60-40.
Zverev probably would've won, but I'm severely doubting that he beats the breaks off Djokovic. I'd give a solid 20% chance of a clear Djokovic victory, a 30% chance of a clear Zverev victory, and a 50% chance of a close-fought match where one pulls out a victory in a tough 4 setter or 5 setter, so something like 55-45 Zverev or 60-40.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal has won majors in 15 calendar years, Djokovic in 13.
Nadal was in the top 10 for 900+ consecutive weeks.
Who has the better longevity?
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
And not only that, but now Alcaraz has completed the CGS at an even younger age than Rafael.
So TT has more than one reason to be secondhand offended for Rafa
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz has such panache, I don't know why he can't be backed.
The opposition matters too, of course, if we're going to compare them directly.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I thought Nadal was a mug in 2015 and 2016
So was he a mug or was he on top during that time?
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I do believe Nadal also had won multiple slams on all three surfaces at the same age as Wilander. That was the record, age 24.
Alcaraz took that record also after USO 2025. Age 22.
Vincent-C
Legend
Raffi (and esp his truly exceptional PR team) played the "injury" card almost from the beginning,
which explains a lot. Odd that he was always rested and rarin' for the FO, though- never mind
injuries.
No YEC = No ATG
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal almost went out of the top 10 in 2015. Had Tsonga beaten Wawrinka in their 2015 French Open semi final, then Nadal would have been out of the top 10. Wawrinka beat Tsonga, and went on to win the tournament.
Then Nadal somehow won the new grass event in Stuttgart, despite an erratic and volatile level of play. Nadal continued to hover in the lower part of the top 10, and won 2015 Hamburg on clay which helped, with a 7-5, 7-5 win over Fognini in the final that had 12 breaks of serve in 24 games played.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal missed the 2003, 2004 and 2023 French Opens through injury, and had to withdraw before his third round match in 2016.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I was actually quite impressed by his Stuttgart run personally.
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Rafa started winning much earlier. He had 3 RGs before Novak even had one AO.
Vincent-C
Legend
a pity- the delicate dear was only "un-injured" enough to win fourteen FOs.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Yeah, there were times when his level was very high. In Madrid on clay in 2015, I thought he was playing well before the final, but then he had one of his worst matches ever off the ground in the final (although volleyed well).
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Does the fact that Djokovic couldn't win a slam in 2009 or 2010 really strike against his longevity? That's a weird claim to make, as that sort of implies that he was conserving his strength in 2009/2010 and then using it later in his career to win. Same for Nadal in 2015/2016, that wasn't an issue with longevity.
The time between first and last slam is probably a better metric, you should use that. Nadal was 2005-2022 for an 18 year span, Djokovic was 2008-2023 for a 16 year span.
I'd still disagree, but it would get your point across better.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
I was talking total calendar years of winning a major, not consecutive, although Nadal holds the consecutive record too (at 10 calendar years, Federer 8, Djokovic 6).
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Personally go with time between first and last final.
The perfect example of this is Venus Williams, who made her first slam final at USO 97 and her last slam final at W 2017 - 20 years of being a legit contender.
Like his nephew said if if if it doesn’t exist.
I love Rafa but Toni truly seems to be salty.
Alcaraz is at the start of his career who knows if he will break all the records or not.
For all the talk Toni does about the new generation being soft he seems to be sensitive about his nephews throne being threatened (which is stupid Rafa is one of the goats). I don’t believe zverev would have won the final.
I love Rafa but Toni truly seems to be salty.
Alcaraz is at the start of his career who knows if he will break all the records or not.
For all the talk Toni does about the new generation being soft he seems to be sensitive about his nephews throne being threatened (which is stupid Rafa is one of the goats). I don’t believe zverev would have won the final.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
The Bolelli and Dimitrov matches mostly. The Berdych match was a bit more erratic, but a strong finish.
While Nadal is 3-0 against Murray at Wimbledon, 9-1 in sets.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
So they both beat each other up in their home events. How nice.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Madrid is at a little bit of altitude, so the ball flies through the air slightly differently compared to Roland Garros, Rome, Monte Carlo, Barcelona.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Mustard
Bionic Poster
He did win it 4 times, i.e. 2010, 2013, 2014, 2017Surely the King can deal with a little altitude.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Yes, I was discussing total calendar years.
Nadal's number of calendar years he won a major is brought lower by his inability to win a slam in 2015-2016. Similar for Djokovic's 09-10 period. If you thought that Nadal had better longevity than Djokovic with total calendar years they won majors because 15 > 13, then if Djokovic had won slams in 09 and 10, would they suddenly be even because 15=15?
It's a strange case to make. Normally people use the start and end of a career to determine longevity, with particular emphasis on the end. (Federer's longevity is notable because he played til 40, and played at a high level until 38, despite not being ATG level until 22.) That's why I mentioned slam win span - it still puts Nadal ahead, like you want, but isn't affected by wins in the middle of the career (where longevity doesn't matter at all).
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Djokovic didn't win a major in 2017 either, not just 2009-2010.
Nadal: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022
Djokovic: 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
I agree - that's what I'd go for as well, or semifinals. Enough to show you're still playing an extremely high level, but doesn't require being the best player in the world.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
I know? What does that have to do with anything? I'm trying to tell you why total calendar years that a player wins a major is a flawed metric to measure longevity by.
Player A wins a slam at 16, 18, 24, 29, 33, 36, 39, 41, 43 (9 total calendar years)
Player B wins a slam at 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 (10 total calendar years)
Does Player A or Player B have a better longevity? See the point now?
octobrina10
Bionic Poster
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Zverev would have absolutely handed that match to Novak
octobrina10
Bionic Poster
Ever since Rafa started to beat Fed, the latter's devotees have been acting salty towards Toni on TTW. Nothing has changed, Fed devotee.
...
Vincent-C
Legend
Federer: 7-1 v. Raffi ("I injured, no?) Nadal since Basel 2015. The one bleak win for the strategic malingerer was on dirt..
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Yes he is just a mental case he would have found a way losing that match being up 2 sets and 5:0 .
Vincent-C
Legend
I don't want to agree- but you're probably right.
octobrina10
Bionic Poster
Vincent-C
Legend
Just the facts, ma'am.
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