How to visualise the lag and whipping motion on the forehand and 2 handed backhand.

ByeByePoly said:

Yeah!!! Why is tennis so F-in HARD?

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–because almost all coaches do not tell you the spare essentials of practically every very good contemporary (male?) forehand. JY is inclined to say "don't get hung up on the backswing loop stuff" or "there is no wrist snap." I agree with both. However, I think it is important to learn early:

-that the racquet position on take-back should be such that, loop or no loop, ESR (some do it in the loop, most do it on first forward motion) will put the wrist into nearly full lag, and that the slight push of the grip outward toward your intended contact point will complete the lag to the farthest extent possible.

-That the hitting upper arm should be raised far enough from the side during take-back (watch your favorite pro from Sampras to Rafa to Fed) to assure some locking at the shoulder...so that when the UB starts rotating the upper hitting arm will come along.

-That the wrist stays back through to contact, unless you have to reach outward for the ball, in which case you go to a wrist locked in its actual primary lock position. (What? Hold your hand in front of you, straight fingers, whole hand inline with forearm. Make a fist suddenly with a hard squeeze. If you have a normal wrist you'll find it bends back about 45º and is immovable until you WANT it to move forward for adjustment.

-That learning to actively use ISR up into and through contact is one of the spare essentials of the contemporary forehand. Though a know-nothing observer may think you're using "wristiness" into contact, you are not. ISR naturally turns your wrist up powerfully and alters orientation, so that the racquet is forced 1)upward in the plane of the string-bed; 2)forward in the direction of the hit; 3) and into some slight forward tilt, a second boost to your topspin.

ALL the rest about the hitting arm/hand path strikes me as useless mumbo jumbo, if these elements are not there. If they are there, you won't be fishing around for alternative explanations as to what pros do. These alternatives, if they leave out the above, will generally be wrong, leading to error.

Four spare essentials does not seem to much. The "separation angle" on turn-back is well covered elsewhere, as is use of the off-arm. The Japanese coaches say "always return to fundamentals." I think those four bullet points cover them, taken together with "coiling back" and the means to launch torso rotation. Well, there. I've had my say.

Cashman said:

“Some coaches are crap” doesn’t equal “students need their heads filled with biomechanics minutiae”.

Smart or stupid, students learn physical movements best when they have as little to consciously focus on as possible.

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We obviously disagree as to what is "minutia." I agree that the four points in my post #251 don't involve minutia. The three core ITF publications agree, stating (in one) that "these actions are usually taught at an early age." The brief "picture book" ITF Advanced Coaching Guide: The Forehand" illustrates all four and mentions the specific value of three of them. We can agree to disagree.

ByeByePoly said:

btw ... loop is the hand ... racquet head up because least effort to hold in that position in backswing.

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Green is the hand path. Red is racquet path ( I think racquet head tip).
https://www.feeltennis.net/roger-federer-forehand-technique/




Below, it looks like the string bed is even less loopier than hand path.

Raul_SJ said:

I don't even think that Fed has much of a loop. Unit Turn followed by Elbow Extension. Minimal loop.

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Not Federer, but Ash, the player in John Yandell's article has a huge loop.

As per post #233, I was asking John to "compare Ash (using a huge takeback) to someone even more modern then him, a third player that has a takeback at least as compact as Federer's...
So please compare Ash to Federer or to a third player who's racquet head points forward(towards the court) at the end of the backswing (not at the sky, not even at 45 degrees sideways)."

JohnYandell said:

Fin,
I think you miss the point of the article. Ken was hitting 60mph forehands measured on my pocket radar gun. He never misses. Even though he is 65 I think he could give a lot of the players here a real challenge. He is a monster in his 3.0 and 3.5 league matches There is nothing "old" about his technique. He has the two key modern elements of coiling and extending. The obsession about the backswings is just so wrong headed. His backswing is more compact than Osaka. Don't think anyone here could win many games off her. We can certainly agree to disagree, but I stand by my points.

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John again with all due respect,

The discussion is not about Osaka, nor an old technique like Ken (3.0 - 3.5, who doesn't seem to have any racquet lag, nor does he swing fast), but targeted more about the modern strokes with lag and whipping motion, for which the backswing seems important enough to some of us ( I would say at least 4.0-4.5).

Hence in order to determine if the backswing is important, in modern tennis please "compare, in your artichle. the first player, Ash (using a huge takeback) to someone even more modern then him, a third player that has a takeback at least as compact as Federer's...So please compare Ash to Federer or to a third player who's racquet head points forward(towards the court) at the end of the backswing (not at the sky, not even at 45 degrees sideways).

I for one agree with the OP, "FireFTF" in his posts #225 and #227:

FiReFTW said:

Which article?

Im just saying if someone has a takeback where they go to the low position and then stop dead and accelerate, and even worse ive seen many rec players actually pull the racquet back straight and then accelerate forward instantly so basically changing the momentum of the back swing into a forward swing instantly.

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Thanks!

Fintft said:

Fire, without reading everything, it seems to me that:

a) You are right stating that with a huge loop you get more power.

b) The compact takeback (or even a smaller loop) is something my coach recommended to deal with fast incoming balls (saying that it is used a lot by male players).
And yes I can see why it could lead to injuries (just got over one myself in my rib cage).

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If possible, ask your coach (USPTA?) if he believes a huge loop equates to more RHS. My understanding from the Rick Macci USPTA video is that the compact
backswing (minimal Federer-type loop) has been scientifically proven to generate greater RHS, along with being better suited for fast pace incoming balls.

Raul_SJ said:

If possible, ask your coach (USPTA?) if he believes a huge loop equates to more RHS. My understanding from the Rick Macci USPTA video is that the compact
backswing (minimal Federer-type loop) has been scientifically proven to generate greater RHS, along with being better suited for fast pace incoming balls.

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Atm:

1. I know from my coach what you said in the last sentence that "the compact backswing is being better suited for fast pace incoming balls"
2. I feel like FireTTW, that the huge loop:
   • Gives more power
   • It's less prone to lead to injuries

Fintft said:

Atm:

1. I know from my coach what you said in the last sentence that "the compact backswing is being better suited for fast pace incoming balls"
2. I feel like FireTTW, that the huge loop:
   • Gives more power
   • It's less prone to lead to injuries

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You only have to try it yourself in real life to see what difference it makes, but these people rather argue and act smart, even tho every single coach that is far better than any of them told me what I only convey here on the forum, but then again this forum is filled with people who are low level players but somehow understand all the mechanics of tennis and know exactly how to hit a 130mph serve and 90mph groundstroke with perfect uncoiling of the whole body and kinetic chain and perfect sequence of every moving part and the right angles and all, lol.

Thats why I don't even bother arguing anymore, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just know il rather take a word of someone who actually knows how to play tennis at a high level than your average ttw member who doesn't.

Fin,
I think we have reached the end of discussion. In my mind there is no need to compare other backswings because so long as it's fairly compact it isn't a major factor. You and I also disagree about the size of Ash's backswing as well, so you have your viewpoint and I have mine. Good luck with your tennis.

Was Mac Modern?

Great question. He was one of the last to play with some version of the continental grip. So that's one of the defining characteristics of the gulf. Now it's eastern grips at a minimum and most players some version of semi western, And of course the rackets. Mac straddled both sides of that.
But Johnny had a great turn and could also extend through the ball.
When you look at the great players in the 1920's 30's 40's and 50's what you see is of course they turn but the turns aren't as hard and as full. We don't have much footage of them but enough to see the generalities. Same for extension--yes it's there but not quite as full. Remember these guys were mostly playing on low bouncing grass courts and trying to take the ball on the rise.
So the modern players just push the coil and the extension further and those positions serve as great models.
The other biggest difference is the wiper. I have footage of Tilden hitting a forehand with a full wiper, but the on edge finish was more the norm. In the modern game literally every player wipers almost every ball.
Getting back to the article, that's the variable between Ken and Ash. With Ash's grip he naturally wipers. Ken has learned to do that as well as a variation on high, low and short balls.

JohnYandell said:

Was Mac Modern?

Great question. He was one of the last to play with some version of the continental grip. So that's one of the defining characteristics of the gulf. Now it's eastern grips at a minimum and most players some version of semi western, And of course the rackets. Mac straddled both sides of that.
But Johnny had a great turn and could also extend through the ball.
When you look at the great players in the 1920's 30's 40's and 50's what you see is of course they turn but the turns aren't as hard and as full. We don't have much footage of them but enough to see the generalities. Same for extension--yes it's there but not quite as full. Remember these guys were mostly playing on low bouncing grass courts and trying to take the ball on the rise.
So the modern players just push the coil and the extension further and those positions serve as great models.
The other biggest difference is the wiper. I have footage of Tilden hitting a forehand with a full wiper, but the on edge finish was more the norm. In the modern game literally every player wipers almost every ball.
Getting back to the article, that's the variable between Ken and Ash. With Ash's grip he naturally wipers. Ken has learned to do that as well as a variation on high, low and short balls.

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FiReFTW said:

You only have to try it yourself in real life to see what difference it makes, but these people rather argue and act smart, even tho every single coach that is far better than any of them told me what I only convey here on the forum, but then again this forum is filled with people who are low level players but somehow understand all the mechanics of tennis and know exactly how to hit a 130mph serve and 90mph groundstroke with perfect uncoiling of the whole body and kinetic chain and perfect sequence of every moving part and the right angles and all, lol.

Thats why I don't even bother arguing anymore, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just know il rather take a word of someone who actually knows how to play tennis at a high level than your average ttw member who doesn't.

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These people?

"Thats why I don't even bother arguing anymore"

New thing since this morning?

Come on ... admit it, arguing is fun. Going all "they are low skilled" is amateur when you could have really stuck the knife in with "old skills and old legs".

ByeByePoly said:

These people?

"Thats why I don't even bother arguing anymore"

New thing since this morning?

Come on ... admit it, arguing is fun. Going all "they are low skilled" is amateur when you could have really stuck the knife in with "old skills and old legs".

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I meant that you don't really try to view any viewpoint I present and just stick with ur thing, thats why its useless to argument anymore, since you have your opinion and I have mine.

And I meant no disrespect with low level tennis, I consider miself low level still also, I just meant that I would trust someone thats a high level player and also coaches for a long time more about such things.

FiReFTW said:

I meant that you don't really try to view any viewpoint I present and just stick with ur thing, thats why its useless to argument anymore, since you have your opinion and I have mine.

And I meant no disrespect with low level tennis, I consider miself low level still also, I just meant that I would trust someone thats a high level player and also coaches for a long time more about such things.

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You are wrong ... I did consider your viewpoint and decided it was wrong. You don't want me to lie to you do you?

"Experts" are wrong all the time. I was told eggs raise your cholesterol by docs and experts for years. I ate a crazy amount of eggs for 4-6 months ... and my doc almost fell over when my blood tests showed a huge drop. If docs can be wrong about eggs, Brady and Simon can be wrong about loop aided rhs. btw ... I really like those two instructors.

FiReFTW said:

If it was like you claim the arm would be dead still at the back position till the body "stops" then be flung forward.

In reality the arm is moving forward when the shoulders move forward.

The arm just speeds beyond when the body transfers its energy.
Its suppose to be a flowing kinetic chain where every part adds to the next and when the arm gets the energy the body gradually slows.
Theres no forceful stop its just a smooth transfer of energy from one part to the next and the funny thing is its as clear as day in every video here.

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Yeet

a12345 said:

The active driving of the Kinetic chain for the body and shoulders has to end at some point and transfer it to the arm, and it ends when its roughly facing forwards. More specifically, where it should be at contact point. After rapid acceleration its rapid deceleration. The arm is relatively passive in all of this, at least for this whippy shot, and gets thrown at the ball.

Visualising this end point allows you to understand how the racket lags and "catches up"

The body and shoulders turn quickly and then "waits" for the arm and racket to catch up.

Youve got 2 options really. Once you begin turning your body and shoulders, you can either:

Stop at contact point when youve basically turned 90 degrees.
You can keep rotating your body past contact point until you go from facing the right fence to the left fence.

If you stop turning after 90 degrees, which is what you should be doing, you want to uncoil, and then stop, which by its nature should be abrupt.

If you drive through the ball there will be no whip to it, youre just pushing through the ball, which is a different shot.

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Allow me to express a contrarian interpretation of what you are seeing:
Depending on footwork/orientation as the stroke is launched, the hips/torso/shoulders may have less freedom to move by the time the optimum position by the time the hitting-arm & racquet have reached the moment to be fully accelerated toward the ball: The first big acceleration comes when the racquet hand has passed its farthest rightward point on the swing arc, and has started leftward. As that happens the racquet head has two realities: It has to catch up, make a turn/pivot to stay attached to the pulling grip, and line up with the grip....but

–at that point (provided the ball is to be taken out front, not far to the side) the racquet head (RH) gains tremendous forward acceleration in the first instants of the hand's leftward turn because the RH already has forward momentum and energy just as the hand goes leftward...so the RH has to go fast forward first as it rounds the bend (in just a few inches of hand leftward motion....but wait, there's more:

With the RH leaping forward, the hitting hand gripping, well, the grip, the player's muscles begin to actively pull/swing the RH forward by activating the large back muscles, lats, which (only when the arm is forward, not at the side, so as to exert internal rotation force. This is due to the way in which the lat fibers, originating at spinal attachment points, connect to the humerus over the top, into a groove in the humerus. With the arm at the side, lats lift the arm. With the arm in front (varying individual but typically 40º or more) flexing the lats rotates the hitting arm. This can be seen in two slightly different results: For the double-bend, the rotation in the shoulder socket causes the hitting forarm to move up, forward and left. For the straight arm shot the lat flex leads to more pure rotation of the forearm/wrist/grip upward, forward, and into tilt.

The lats are powerful, the largest muscles in the back. In the interval between the obvious shoulders-powered acceleration of the arm and the moment of contact several muscles continue to accelerate the hitting arm. The interval is brief. Directly into contact the lats take over, but not alone, providing the last big (and ITF studied -extensively) acceleration into contact. That last big ISR-provided boost is credited in several ITF handbook sources as providing up to 30% more forward RH speed into contact, as well as increased spin as it also boosts the RH upward on the plane of the string-bed, and tilts the racquet slightly forward (which also boosts spin). (For a flat hit the full lat flex and ISR can be curtailed.)

There is no moment in the swing when particular muscles are not in control, boosting RHS. There is no free racquet whip: The thing is powered all the way to and through contact. The body parts/muscles that do the powering shift as the swing progress, and this shifting must be trained to become highly effective, free of hitches. Or So They Say.

just paid some attention to 'lag' 'snap' 'blabla....' etcetcetc during my daily 'fixation' n surely it happened when trying hit hard pace/spin as body shifting/rotating forward so rapidly dat the arm/wrist 'lag' behind w/ the rkt very naturally, nothing mythical abt it. but when trying to hit gently like hitting some soft feeding to a 5 yo then not much the 'lag' at all...............

same thing like when whipping the whipper/string/rope would follow the stick almost horizontally ie so called 'lag' 'snap' watava u call it when swing fast but if swing slowly the whipper/string/rope would hang below n not much 'lag' at all..............................

JohnYandell said:

The mythical quest for lag and snap! In my view one of the worst, most inaccurate, and destructive teaching phrases ever created! Lag happens virtually automatically. Snap does not happen at all.

Unless your hitting arm is literally rigid as concrete, the wrist will naturally lay back at some point before or during the start of the forward swing. From there you will usually see (in high level players at least) some forward flex of the wrist on the way to contact. The exception being full western grips where there is no wrist lay back.

Is that a "snap?" Nope. The brilliant biomechanical researcher Brian Gordon measured what actually happens. Elite players are actually inhibiting the forward flex to create the right contact point and control the shot line. If the forearm muscles controlling the wrist were totally relaxed the racket head would come all the way around to neutral or even further due to the forces in the swing.

But hundreds and hundreds of high speed video examples from match play show the wrist is still laid back before, during and after contact. In fact sometimes more laid back after.

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@JohnYandell : Didn't Björn hit with a full western grip? As I watch your video from the bad old days (T1) clip: PS_Borg_FHCC_Rear-001-0001 (Converted).mov,

I see Björn take the racquet back with racquet in line with his forearm. But, he then procedes to lift the racquet vertically, relative to his forearm into a position not unlike contemporary players. He then lowers the racquet, takes ESR, though not as complete as today's players, yet obvious, just as he powers the hitting upper arm into action just as contemporary players do, with high initial upper arm at the instant rotation begins, then quickly bringing the elbow through and the racquet head low. He swings his off-arm in contemporary style, and even pulls the off-arm elbow in just as he launches ESR and pulls the grip out, and swings quickly to the point that ISR is wanted.

His western grip, low racquet head, ESR, rise to the ball, forceful ISR....is still the golden formula for very heavy topspin, which god knows he delivered. I think the new racquet sizes and further study have led to the exageration of a good base, and it works.

–Just offering another point of view as to whether a player hitting full Western Grip might find, as Borg did, that rolling the upper arm into ESR with a prepared vertical racquet...provides what players call full lay-back or lag...instantly.

Put Anther Way: Isn't it the case that if a Western grip player takes his racquet through the backswith and launch with a slightly open or neutral racquet face, then he's already taken ESR when he takes the grip. If he lifts the racquet vertically relative to his forearm, then when he lowers the racquent he needs to roll the upper arm back, get ESR at that point....and that roll back puts his wrist/racquet fully into lag? And might that not be the reason Börg adopted that "lift the racquet to vertical at the top, so that he wouldn't have to gain lag on forward motion in an unreliable strained way by forcing the wrist back? (I obviously don't believe in the "it just happens" school of "how to get lag." Börg is closer to our contemporary player in seeking the "you get lag for free if you start with a vertical racquet over a lower parallel forearm, and just roll it back." No?

tldr man, talk the talk, walk the walk....................lolololol, seems every atp-er doing it n much much more convincing to get 1 of them, let's say 1 of the top 300 atp-ers will do. as long as not the 1s w/ wrist issues.........if he's touring for yrs n been ranking top 300 w/o wrist injuries then it'll be 00s x more credible >any1 here..........................

or put ur wrist/arm in ur mouth..........lolololol manohman.........ie do a tolerance test, hitting 1000 fh w/ pace/spin daily for 1 yr to c how u go.

if the technique is right u'll benefit the hitting as we always heard 'hit enough balls' etcetcetc. if not, dere's no 1 yr 4 sure......................................

Curiosity said:

@JohnYandell : Didn't Björn hit with a full western grip? As I watch your video from the bad old days (T1) clip: PS_Borg_FHCC_Rear-001-0001 (Converted).mov,

I see Björn take the racquet back with racquet in line with his forearm. But, he then procedes to lift the racquet vertically, relative to his forearm into a position not unlike contemporary players. He then lowers the racquet head, takes ESR, though not as complete as today's players, yet obvious, just as he powers the hitting upper arm into action just as contemporary players do, with high initial upper arm at the instant rotation begins, then quickly bringing the elbow through and the racquet head low. He swings his off-arm in contemporary style, and even pulls the off-arm elbow in just as he launches ESR and pulls the grip out, and swings quickly to the point that ISR is wanted.

His western grip, low racquet head, ESR, rise to the ball, forceful ISR....is still the golden formula for very heavy topspin, which god knows he delivered. I think the new racquet sizes and further study have led to the exageration of a good base, and it works.

–Just offering another point of view as to whether a player hitting full Western Grip might find, as Borg did, that rolling the upper arm into ESR with a prepared vertical racquet...provides what players call full lay-back or lag...instantly.

Put Anther Way: Isn't it the case that if a Western grip player takes his racquet through the backswith and launch with a slightly open or neutral racquet face, then he's already taken ESR when he takes the grip. If he lifts the racquet vertically relative to his forearm, then when he lowers the racquent he needs to roll the upper arm back, get ESR at that point....and that roll back puts his wrist/racquet fully into lag? And might that not be the reason Börg adopted that "lift the racquet to vertical at the top, so that he wouldn't have to gain lag on forward motion in an unreliable strained way by forcing the wrist back? (I obviously don't believe in the "it just happens" school of "how to get lag." Börg is closer to our contemporary player in seeking the "you get lag for free if you start with a vertical racquet over a lower parallel forearm, and just roll it back." No?

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I can say one thing about the evolution of the modern FH ... the shorts have evolved in a postive direction.

Kei Nishikori is an example of a player who does no backswing to the extreme. Its a good example of what Fed and the rest are doing if you broke it down into very rigid movements. They simply blend what Kei Nishikori is doing into a smoother style.

However the principle is the same, you get the racket into position, then go straight forwards. Its a segmented motion, even if some players make it look smoother.

ptuanminh said:

Does anyone really think these stuff can help their forehand to the next level?????

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Yes, whilst the discussion has gone into whats happening, the original point still stands about turning the body fast and first and pulling the arm through 2nd.

Hi Curiosity,

Your 4 essentials (bellow) are all good, except that the OP (FireTWT) and me were talking about the shape of the backswing (Big C, smaller c, compact takeback) and their influence on power and so forth:

Curiosity said:

–because almost all coaches do not tell you the spare essentials of practically every very good contemporary (male?) forehand. JY is inclined to say "don't get hung up on the backswing loop stuff" or "there is no wrist snap." I agree with both. However, I think it is important to learn early:

-that the racquet position on take-back should be such that, loop or no loop, ESR (some do it in the loop, most do it on first forward motion) will put the wrist into nearly full lag, and that the slight push of the grip outward toward your intended contact point will complete the lag to the farthest extent possible.

-That the hitting upper arm should be raised far enough from the side during take-back (watch your favorite pro from Sampras to Rafa to Fed) to assure some locking at the shoulder...so that when the UB starts rotating the upper hitting arm will come along.

-That the wrist stays back through to contact, unless you have to reach outward for the ball, in which case you go to a wrist locked in its actual primary lock position. (What? Hold your hand in front of you, straight fingers, whole hand inline with forearm. Make a fist suddenly with a hard squeeze. If you have a normal wrist you'll find it bends back about 45º and is immovable until you WANT it to move forward for adjustment.

-That learning to actively use ISR up into and through contact is one of the spare essentials of the contemporary forehand. Though a know-nothing observer may think you're using "wristiness" into contact, you are not. ISR naturally turns your wrist up powerfully and alters orientation, so that the racquet is forced 1)upward in the plane of the string-bed; 2)forward in the direction of the hit; 3) and into some slight forward tilt, a second boost to your topspin.

ALL the rest about the hitting arm/hand path strikes me as useless mumbo jumbo, if these elements are not there. If they are there, you won't be fishing around for alternative explanations as to what pros do. These alternatives, if they leave out the above, will generally be wrong, leading to error.

Four spare essentials does not seem to much. The "separation angle" on turn-back is well covered elsewhere, as is use of the off-arm. The Japanese coaches say "always return to fundamentals." I think those four bullet points cover them, taken together with "coiling back" and the means to launch torso rotation. Well, there. I've had my say.

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tennishabit said:

just paid some attention to 'lag' 'snap' 'blabla....' etcetcetc during my daily 'fixation' n surely it happened when trying hit hard pace/spin as body shifting/rotating forward so rapidly dat the arm/wrist 'lag' behind w/ the rkt very naturally, nothing mythical abt it. but when trying to hit gently like hitting some soft feeding to a 5 yo then not much the 'lag' at all...............

same thing like when whipping the whipper/string/rope would follow the stick almost horizontally ie so called 'lag' 'snap' watava u call it when swing fast but if swing slowly the whipper/string/rope would hang below n not much 'lag' at all..............................

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You can actually get a bit of a whip even if you rotate at a slower speed. The problem when you turn at a slower speed is that you may end up blending the shot into 1 motion.

If you turn the body slower overall, but still turn it fast relatively to the timing of when you pull the arm through then you can still get a bit of a slow whip going.

i.e you must maintain that 1-2 rhythm. If you slow down your turn there is a danger of it becoming a smooth stroke where the rhythm just becomes "1".

a12345 said:

Yes, whilst the discussion has gone into whats happening, the original point still stands about turning the body fast and first and pulling the arm through 2nd.

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Just to be clear, the arm comes with the initial body turn, the body doesn't turn first.



IMO ... from pic #1 to pic #2 ... arm just coming along with the shoulder rotation in a relaxed manner. I think arm effort (arm muscles, maybe shoulder muscles) fire around pic #2 ... the throw.

As far as all the discussions about loop vs drop vs pat the dog vs just sticking racquet back ... the only thing that really matters in slot (pic #2 above) to contact (pic #4). The rest is just prep/foreplay .... and then follow through. Part of the slot is the position the player is in (coiled? stance, etc).

On categorizing FHs ... that seems a bit tricky ... more spectrum than hard categories. But for the purposes of your OT that I agree with ... a Fed type FH involves the torso rotation basically playing out, then followed by arm extended into contact ... I grabbed a few more pics ... this is what I do.

First ... watch (@FiReFTW ... this one might surprise you) Nishikori hit his FH @00:14 real time, and follow his shoulder rotation until completion:



Now check out each frame from right before contact to the point his torso/shoulder rotation completes. Check out the first few frames ... his shoulder turn briefly stopped/paused ... just picks up after the shot has been hit with follow through momentum. This is a thing with the ATP guys hitting power. We could do the same frame check with Borg and Lendl in video above.



only when Nishikori hits this point in his follow through does the shoulder rotation pick up again. You miss this real time ... but your arm getting momentum at the shoulder did not miss it.




I think the arm and racquet probably pull the body around at the end of the follow through. That timing has to be related to your extension ... or no extension. If your arm is extending first, it would delay the follow through pulling the shoulders around.

As far a ATP vs WTA FH categories, Madison Keys FH also pauses when you look frame by frame, Halep seems to but not as clearly.



Hey @FiReFTW ... I briefly checked your FH video in the TTW Complete poster thread. It was hand feeds, and video quality wasn't great, but if you advance it frame by frame your shoulder rotation also pauses ... good extension ... then your shoulder rotation picks up again at end of follow through.

When I check my FH by video ... I see some pause but opportunity to improve delivery to the arm with a bit more pause. Someone asks if you can learn from all of this. I would say yes, if you identify the stuff that matters (which is not simple) ... and then review it in your stroke by video.

Another thing on the "pause" ... "actively stopping". That isn't what I see is happening with shoulder rotation. We have the ability to rotate as far as we want to ... the torso/shoulder rotation isn't like the arm that has been sent on it's way. I can turn my shouulders all the way through contact ... or I can turn them to a shorter point. That isn't "stopping" anything ... that is just not actively turning further. I would think we learn to match our uncoiling to our contact point, which is going to be different for different players, grips, bent arm or straight, lag or not, etc.

Here is a question ... sir @JohnYandell will like. Is it possible to have good extension through and after contact ... and still swing shoulders through contact. Probably not ... which is a perfect example of getting to the same point with simple technique rather than way too many words.

ByeByePoly said:

Just to be clear, the arm comes with the initial body turn, the body doesn't turn first.

IMO ... from pic #1 to pic #2 ... arm just coming along with the shoulder rotation in a relaxed manner. I think arm effort (arm muscles, maybe shoulder muscles) fire around pic #2 ... the throw.

As far as all the discussions about loop vs drop vs pat the dog vs just sticking racquet back ... the only thing that really matters in slot (pic #2 above) to contact (pic #4). The rest is just prep/foreplay .... and then follow through. Part of the slot is the position the player is in (coiled? stance, etc).

On categorizing FHs ... that seems a bit tricky ... more spectrum than hard categories. But for the purposes of your OT that I agree with ... a Fed type FH involves the torso rotation basically playing out, then followed by arm extended into contact ... I grabbed a few more pics ... this is what I do.

First ... watch (@FiReFTW ... this one might surprise you) Nishikori hit his FH @00:14 real time, and follow his shoulder rotation until completion:

Now check out each frame from right before contact to the point his torso/shoulder rotation completes. Check out the first few frames ... his shoulder turn briefly stopped/paused ... just picks up after the shot has been hit with follow through momentum. This is a thing with the ATP guys hitting power. We could do the same frame check with Borg and Lendl in video above.

only when Nishikori hits this point in his follow through does the shoulder rotation pick up again. You miss this real time ... but your arm getting momentum at the shoulder did not miss it.

I think the arm and racquet probably pull the body around at the end of the follow through. That timing has to be related to your extension ... or no extension. If your arm is extending first, it would delay the follow through pulling the shoulders around.

As far a ATP vs WTA FH categories, Madison Keys FH also pauses when you look frame by frame, Halep seems to but not as clearly.

Hey @FiReFTW ... I briefly checked your FH video in the TTW Complete poster thread. It was hand feeds, and video quality wasn't great, but if you advance it frame by frame your shoulder rotation also pauses ... good extension ... then your shoulder rotation picks up again at end of follow through.

When I check my FH by video ... I see some pause but opportunity to improve delivery to the arm with a bit more pause. Someone asks if you can learn from all of this. I would say yes, if you identify the stuff that matters (which is not simple) ... and then review it in your stroke by video.

Another thing on the "pause" ... "actively stopping". That isn't what I see is happening with shoulder rotation. We have the ability to rotate as far as we want to ... the torso/shoulder rotation isn't like the arm that has been sent on it's way. I can turn my shouulders all the way through contact ... or I can turn them to a shorter point. That isn't "stopping" anything ... that is just not actively turning further. I would think we learn to match our uncoiling to our contact point, which is going to be different for different players, grips, bent arm or straight, lag or not, etc.

Here is a question ... sir @JohnYandell will like. Is it possible to have good extension through and after contact ... and still swing shoulders through contact. Probably not ... which is a perfect example of getting to the same point with simple technique rather than way too many words.

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Well again I never claimed the whole body turns around with the arm like a pivot, I always said its a kinetic chain from segment to segment from legs to hips to upper body etc... but I argued that you don't STOP the segments by force, rather its more natural chain of events, legs explode and then hips start turning and when they reach a certain range of motion start to slow etc...

Now from 1st person perspective and how I feel things when I play personally, and also when you watch videos of pro players, there are differences in how much the rotation stops and where and how depending on the shot.

When I get a high ball and try to finish it and hit it hard and more flat, I tend to swing through the ball and actually my upper body rotates through the ball completely, this seems evident also when watching some pro footage of high balls that they slap for flat winners, they really go through the ball with the whole upper body.

Now when the ball is lower or when you want to swing alot low to high and add alot of topspin to the ball which is quite predominant from baseline hitting, then there seems to be alot more pause of momentum of the body and arm coming in after, probably because you have to steer the arm low to high and by slowing the momentum more it makes this move more effortless and easy and with faster rhs probably, the other option is if you would force it and arm the swing low to high.

You can get alot of horizontal speed by body rotation, but you can't get vertical speed with it, so that works differently, so thats why on shots that are high over the net and the players really hit through you can really see how they turn completely through the swing and contact point, because they get the most power and racquet speed like that, but on other balls where theres more low to high swing there its alot more segmented where the body momentum slowdown helps to maneouver the racquet on ur lever (arm) easier from low to high.

Anyway thats just my thinking and theory lol.

Fintft said:

Hi Curiosity,

Your 4 essentials (bellow) are all good, except that the OP (FireTWT) and me were talking about the shape of the backswing (Big C, smaller c, compact takeback) and their influence on power and so forth:

Click to expand...

I suppose my point with the "essentials," clearly off-topic, was blatant: I have never seen a player whose forehand included all of them in good form, yet worried about the shape of his backswing. Nonetheless, you're right!

FiReFTW said:

Well again I never claimed the whole body turns around with the arm like a pivot, I always said its a kinetic chain from segment to segment from legs to hips to upper body etc... but I argued that you don't STOP the segments by force, rather its more natural chain of events, legs explode and then hips start turning and when they reach a certain range of motion start to slow etc...

Now from 1st person perspective and how I feel things when I play personally, and also when you watch videos of pro players, there are differences in how much the rotation stops and where and how depending on the shot.

When I get a high ball and try to finish it and hit it hard and more flat, I tend to swing through the ball and actually my upper body rotates through the ball completely, this seems evident also when watching some pro footage of high balls that they slap for flat winners, they really go through the ball with the whole upper body.

Now when the ball is lower or when you want to swing alot low to high and add alot of topspin to the ball which is quite predominant from baseline hitting, then there seems to be alot more pause of momentum of the body and arm coming in after, probably because you have to steer the arm low to high and by slowing the momentum more it makes this move more effortless and easy and with faster rhs probably, the other option is if you would force it and arm the swing low to high.

You can get alot of horizontal speed by body rotation, but you can't get vertical speed with it, so that works differently, so thats why on shots that are high over the net and the players really hit through you can really see how they turn completely through the swing and contact point, because they get the most power and racquet speed like that, but on other balls where theres more low to high swing there its alot more segmented where the body momentum slowdown helps to maneouver the racquet on ur lever (arm) easier from low to high.

Anyway thats just my thinking and theory lol.

Click to expand...

Good points, particularly we tend to ANALYZE everything on the neutral full blooded stroke in the strike zone. But heck ... we struggle with that without the exception adhoc shots.

Yeah... I think the "actively stop" thing was always a bad way to phrase it. I had used the terms "pause" and "stop" in my shoulder turn thread way back win, but that was just a description of the moving parts stopping the moving .... not a statement about active vs inactive. I think the better way of thinking about tennis strokes is not "breaking" ... but "just stopping active powering at certain points".

ByeByePoly said:

Just to be clear, the arm comes with the initial body turn, the body doesn't turn first.

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The body turns first, and the arm gets dragged with the initial body turn is how id put it.

As the body turns first and drags the arm with it, its creating a stretch in the chest muscle, shoulder muscle and forearm muscle. So all these muscles are being loaded and stretched.

And then as you see in picture 2 its only at this stage that the body stops turning, the muscles are released, and as you say, now the arm and shoulder muscles start firing to pull the racket forwards to contact.

Curiosity said:

@JohnYandell : Didn't Björn hit with a full western grip? As I watch your video from the bad old days (T1) clip: PS_Borg_FHCC_Rear-001-0001 (Converted).mov,

I see Björn take the racquet back with racquet in line with his forearm. But, he then procedes to lift the racquet vertically, relative to his forearm into a position not unlike contemporary players. He then lowers the racquet, takes ESR, though not as complete as today's players, yet obvious, just as he powers the hitting upper arm into action just as contemporary players do, with high initial upper arm at the instant rotation begins, then quickly bringing the elbow through and the racquet head low. He swings his off-arm in contemporary style, and even pulls the off-arm elbow in just as he launches ESR and pulls the grip out, and swings quickly to the point that ISR is wanted.

His western grip, low racquet head, ESR, rise to the ball, forceful ISR....is still the golden formula for very heavy topspin, which god knows he delivered. I think the new racquet sizes and further study have led to the exageration of a good base, and it works.

–Just offering another point of view as to whether a player hitting full Western Grip might find, as Borg did, that rolling the upper arm into ESR with a prepared vertical racquet...provides what players call full lay-back or lag...instantly.

Put Anther Way: Isn't it the case that if a Western grip player takes his racquet through the backswith and launch with a slightly open or neutral racquet face, then he's already taken ESR when he takes the grip. If he lifts the racquet vertically relative to his forearm, then when he lowers the racquent he needs to roll the upper arm back, get ESR at that point....and that roll back puts his wrist/racquet fully into lag? And might that not be the reason Börg adopted that "lift the racquet to vertical at the top, so that he wouldn't have to gain lag on forward motion in an unreliable strained way by forcing the wrist back? (I obviously don't believe in the "it just happens" school of "how to get lag." Börg is closer to our contemporary player in seeking the "you get lag for free if you start with a vertical racquet over a lower parallel forearm, and just roll it back." No?

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I saw no evidence in my FH "flip" travels that "ESR and lag just happens". Just starting with ESR ... that isn't the natural state of things ... the natural state would be the arm going back and then forward with no rolling. I think the racquet orientation (pat the dog), grips sw+, and dropping racquet on edge (like Potro), moving hand out with relaxed wrist, all are ESR-more-friendly components ... but just will never buy there isn't active effort required on top of all of it. I think it fades to muscle memory like everything else pretty quickly. My one "learning assist" was a simple active "minor effort" ESR move right when I would start butt cap forward. Note ... that was what I would call a coiling assist ... nothing was changed with relaxed completion to contact. Wasn't long ... didn't even feel like I was doing it. For all I know, once I got the feel of what was suppose to be happening with the "assist", my stroke adjusted to get the ESR lag without the assist. It's impossible for us to distinguish between the active stuff we don't know we are doing buried in muscle memory and passive stuff we don't know we are doing in muscle memory.

a12345 said:

The body turns first, and the arm gets dragged with the initial body turn is how id put it.

As the body turns first and drags the arm with it, its creating a stretch in the chest muscle, shoulder muscle and forearm muscle. So all these muscles are being loaded and stretched.

And then as you see in picture 2 its only at this stage that the body stops turning, the muscles are released, and as you say, now the arm and shoulder muscles start firing to pull the racket forwards to contact.

Click to expand...

Oh ... sorry ... we frickin agree. Except the stretching ... but that might just be because 61 year olds don't stretch.

ByeByePoly said:

Good points, particularly we tend to ANALYZE everything on the neutral full blooded stroke in the strike zone. But heck ... we struggle with that without the exception adhoc shots.

Yeah... I think the "actively stop" thing was always a bad way to phrase it. I had used the terms "pause" and "stop" in my shoulder turn thread way back win, but that was just a description of the moving parts stopping the moving .... not a statement about active vs inactive. I think the better way of thinking about tennis strokes is not "breaking" ... but "just stopping active powering at certain points".

Click to expand...

The reason why I also say stop, is because if you do not picture it that way, we will have a tendency create 1 continuous smooth shot.

By thinking about "stopping" the body turn, or ending it quickly, you will be able to both feel and visualise segmenting your shot into 2 parts, body, then arm.

It highlights that the body turn is segmented from the activation of the arm.

Only after the body turn is finished do we activate the arm.

And abrupt implies its not smooth, its a fast turn and fast stop. The body finishes doing all its work before the arm has even started its activation.

Curiosity,
Borg had only the mildest of semi-western grips. Maybe even extreme eastern.

Bye,
You can have both depending on stance and also elevation off the court. The question is what level of player does this successfully and consistently.

JohnYandell said:

Curiosity,
Borg had only the mildest of semi-western grips. Maybe even extreme eastern.

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-then Borg was confused in his auto-biography (written with a ghost): Paraphrasing his sentence: "Critics said I could never succeed with such an extreme grip." I did watch him play a doubles match six years ago at Puente Romano, from good seats. Still looked pretty western to me. Perhaps I was seeing what I expected to see. Possible.

From Tennis.com Sept.17th, 2013, with accompanying photo showing Borg with a Western grip:
http://www.tennis.com/your-game/2013/09/learning-past-bjorn-borgs-forehand/49182/

"Björn Borg ushered in the forehand that almost every pro has today. Until he came around, almost all players had an Eastern forehand. Borg used a Western grip and hit the ball so far over the net, and with so much spin, that he rarely missed."

a12345 said:

The reason why I also say stop, is because if you do not picture it that way, we will have a tendency create 1 continuous smooth shot.

By thinking about "stopping" the body turn, or ending it quickly, you will be able to both feel and visualise segmenting your shot into 2 parts, body, then arm.

It highlights that the body turn is segmented from the activation of the arm.

Only after the body turn is finished do we activate the arm.

And abrupt implies its not smooth, its a fast turn and fast stop. The body finishes doing all its work before the arm has even started its activation.

Click to expand...

When I shadow swing I feel this. More so the feeling of the hips completing rotation before the arm sets in motion. The feel there is the change in direction of the racquet head. So hips then racquet head.

I don’t quite do this in reality with an incoming ball but when I do it probably feels the most effortless.

Curiosity what they called it and what it was are different things. It was extreme compared to the continental...which was still common in his day. Look at his heel pad in the picture from the link--mostly behind the handle. Have varified that with dozens of videos.

Looks easternish to SW to me.

BadBoy666 said:

Looks easternish to SW to me.

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Great pic.

ByeByePoly said:

Great pic.

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What? you like very short shorts on men?

Borg FH grip.

Curiosity said:

I suppose my point with the "essentials," clearly off-topic, was blatant: I have never seen a player whose forehand included all of them in good form, yet worried about the shape of his backswing. Nonetheless, you're right!

Click to expand...

No you right on (e.g. I knew I had spacing issues- if memory serves me well that was your second essential- and of course the coach tried to correct that Sunday).

a12345 said:

The reason why I also say stop, is because if you do not picture it that way, we will have a tendency create 1 continuous smooth shot.

By thinking about "stopping" the body turn, or ending it quickly, you will be able to both feel and visualise segmenting your shot into 2 parts, body, then arm.

It highlights that the body turn is segmented from the activation of the arm.

Only after the body turn is finished do we activate the arm.

And abrupt implies its not smooth, its a fast turn and fast stop. The body finishes doing all its work before the arm has even started its activation.

Click to expand...

Yes ... you are highlighting it's a power handoff from body to arm. I have agreed with you on that since your OP, and my thread a long time ago. The problem/sensitivities here in TTW land is "active" vs "passive", and any hint of actively breaking/ stopping a part of the swing. If you have never read the active vs passive wrist fh threads, do a search. Better yet ... don't.

I think the major part of the Fed type fh is the shoulder turn, followed closely (in importance ... and sequence ) by arm turning forward at shoulder and racquet rotation at hand. Said another way ... everything below the shoulders mission is to turn the shoulders power source. I think everything below shoulders fires at once to turn that key power source ... so not a k-chain sequence believer below shoulders. Your OP is directly relevant to my disagreement with the monkey drum slung arm as rope thing. Even though I think the shoulder rotation is the key power source, I don't think shoulder rotation is ever that fast. The shoulder rotation with our lower body foundation 1) starts the arm and racquet mass moving, as opposed to an all arm swing where arm starts from a stop 2) When you get to the arm firing/swing/throw (Nishikori pic #2 above) you get to jump on existing momentum and still from a solid foundation below the shoulders.

So I think the uncoiling sequence is 1) body power move which takes shoulders and arm to slot with body rotation hitting end of range, and lag created 2) arm firing/throw 3) ride momentum to contact with with lag unlagged by contact.

Jeeze ... must have actually sampled that Peyote in my tagline.

"Only after the body turn is finished do we activate the arm."

Observation here ... hips were turned back and then shoulders turned past hips (separation). From Nishikori pic #1 to pic #2 (slot), both the hips and shoulders rotated together, so at slot hip rotation played out, but shoulder-to-hip separation still there. So when we throw arm from pic #2 (slot) we had a lot more shoulder rotation available ... but don't, we send the arm forward instead, only completing shoulder rotation after in follow through.

So one might ask ... what good did the added separation do? It would be one thing if I thought we swung hard initially from Nish pic #1 (actually before at full unit turn) ... but I think we mainly fire at slot (pic #2). The conclusion I came to is the extra hitting shoulder/arm/racquet range of motion from full unit turn to slot still matters even though it's a relaxed initial coasting.

JohnYandell said:

Curiosity what they called it and what it was are different things. It was extreme compared to the continental...which was still common in his day. Look at his heel pad in the picture from the link--mostly behind the handle. Have varified that with dozens of videos.

Click to expand...

John, I was just offering credible excuses for my view. I mean if a ghost writer and Barwash both said it... laugh.

user92626 said:

What? you like very short shorts on men?

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Curiosity,
'Yeah that's common.

there's no the best but only the better........if there's the best, must be situational ie the most suitable at that moment respectively as every1's different..............

live w/in our means/ability to improve whatever we're doing...........as long as we can go on. if got injured, most likely @terms of tennis, by the popular te/ge then basically that'll be the end of the trip............if lucky enough w/o the injuries we can always try to improve respectively no matter how fast/slow or huge/little etcetc that'd be................

my 4wd got overheating issues n i had to get it towed back home from hwy 1/2 way from where the fun 4wd pitch was. every time trying to get there failed due to overheating, damn. only heard of ppl talking about how fun the muddy-rocky-sloppy fun pitch was but never got chance to get there........................................

JohnYandell said:

Curiosity what they called it and what it was are different things. It was extreme compared to the continental...which was still common in his day. Look at his heel pad in the picture from the link--mostly behind the handle. Have varified that with dozens of videos.

Click to expand...

In every photo and freeze-frame I've seen Borg's first knuckle is on bevel 5. That makes it Western to me. The rest of his positioning is successfully idiosyncratic for the fingers, heel pad, etc. His heel pad is on 3/4. His thumb makes it around to rest the second joint on bevel 8, which is what I do with an extreme eastern. I vote for it being a hybrid grip..... either an extreme semi-western or a cheated-back western. no surprise. laugh. In his bio Borg compares his grip to the prevelant eastern grip. He definitely knew the difference between continental and eastern. He used the continental everywhere you'd expect it. He also shifted his forehand grip to accomodate different styles of ball/court. He claims to have played serve and volley during the first week of Wimbledon on the soft wet grass, moving to pure baseline heavy topspin for the second week, at which time, he said, the court felt and behaved almost like clay. Interestin.

John, I did find the biography of Borg I parphrased, as told to Gene Scott back in 1980. (I likely read it in '83.)
I also found a photo of Borg illustrating his forehand grip (linked below at the bottom of the page): he's showing the heel pad on bevel #5.
I have another with Borg actually illustrating it that way for a photographer...but I can't find it tonight.


Excerpts from My Life and Game by Bjorn Borg tennis.quickfound.net
Excerpts from My Life and Game by Bjorn Borg as told to Eugene L. Scott, 1980, Simon & Schuster

FOREHAND
My grip on the forehand is western, with the heel of the racquet inside my palm, enabling my wrist to whip the racquet faster on its way to catch the ball. My stance is often open, which gives me more time to hit and get back into position. I do use my left hand to help take my racquet back. My backswing has a high loop, and I meet the ball well in front of my left hip (right hip in the open stance) striking between 4 and 5 o'clock if you imagine the ball as the face of a clock. I snap my wrists upward in a sweeping motion rolling the racquet face over at the end of contact and carrying the racquet over my left shoulder on the followthrough--often so it is pointing directly behind me.
Despite the speed of my arm and the racquet as it strikes the ball, my feet stay firmly on the ground and my hips move only slightly and do not roll forward the way a golfer's hips do. Keeping the lower body stable and low reduces power somewhat, but it is the key to my consistency.
The secret to my forehand is dropping the racquet head below the ball so the upward swing can produce wild top spin. Top spin can also be generated from the eastern grip, but not as much. I do sacrifice depth by my heavy emphasis on spin, but I think consistency is more important--not hitting over the base line norhitting into the net.

Great photo at:
https://claesjohnsonmathscience.wor...spin-tennis-ball-curves-down-yvfu3xg7d7wt-17/

I'll see Borg again sometime in the next few years at an exhibition. The last time was brief, laugh. He heard me speaking Swedish at the beach bar at Puente Romano and asked me to take the pictures the wait staff wanted. That was that. I'll be more assertive next time.

a12345 said:

Some people have a hard time getting that lag and snap/liquid whip motion on their strokes.

And the reason why in my opinion is that they are continuing through their strokes in the classic , smooth, WTA forehand style manner.

The key to feeling and getting the liquid whip happening is understanding that you need to stop turning , and you need to do it abruptly.

If you imagine sitting on a spinning disc rotating quickly and then I stop that disc, you go flying off it. Or imagine flicking a whip, the whippy effect comes from when you stop your hand and the whip follows through.

So in order to visualise how to get a liquid whip motion you need to turn your hips and body from facing the fence, to facing forwards, but then stop abruptly. Your arm will then be flung forwards as it catches up, and then finally the racket head will snap forwards from lag position to contact point. It should feel like the racket is doing quick bounce like an elastic band motion.

Now the same also applies to the 2 handed backhand. As you turn your hips and body quickly your arms and racket should almost feel "trapped" behind you, but as you stop turning abruptly at about 45 degrees facing forwards, your arms will catch up and the racket will snap forwards. Now the backhand will feel different from the forehand as youve got 2 hands on the racket but you should still feel that slingshot effect.

So the key to getting the whippy motion on both sides is to visualise not just how quickly you accelerate the turn of your body, but just as important how quickly you stop turning, in order to allow the lag and whip motion to take over.

If you follow through your body turn or do it in one smooth motion you will never get that lag snap effect, it has to be an abrupt turn and an abrupt stop to allow your arm and the racket to sling through like stopping the spinning disc.

Click to expand...

My question is how to do this when your momentum is going laterally to a ball out wide. You would think you'd use your sideways momentum to and sling it forward like they used the moon as a sling shot in Apollo 13. But this would be a sudden move forward not a sudden change in direction as you indicate.

Any thoughts on how the pros visualize in their minds eye the arc and initiation of the swing for a shot out wide? I'm guessing this is why pros are always sliding...even on hard court.