If Serena's best is better then Justine's best on clay, how the head to head?

navratilovafan

navratilovafan

Banned
It is funny that Serena acts like every match, even a match with Justine on clay is hers to win or lose. Mary Joe Fernandez says that Serena at her supposed best is too good, and Justine knows that before a match with Serena on clay. If that is true how do you explain the 4-1 head to head. Justine went 1-1 vs Serena on clay when she barely a top 10 player, and Serena at her most dominant peak. She then went 2-0 vs Serena on clay when she was coming into her own, and Serena was still at her dominant peak. Now the recent win with Serena past her dominant peak to a degree. So it is pretty clear she owns Serena on clay. Does Serena mysteriously not play her best vs Justine on clay almost every time they play? No of course not. Justine's best IS better then Serena's best on clay. Serena's errors are caused by Justine's superior skill and ability on clay. Some of the very best and most consistent clay courters have made 60+ unforced errors in a very high quality match. Serena is not as consistent or strong as some of those women on clay, yet if she makes over 20 unforced errors, no matter who she is playing, she is supposably way off her game. Please, what a joke.
 
navratilovafan

navratilovafan

Banned
Nadal_Freak said:
Serena at her best can beat anyone. Even Henin on clay.
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So does she mysteriously never play her best then. 4-1 Henin leads Serena on clay. That is like saying Federer's best is better then Nadal's best on clay even though Nadal leads 5-1, which would be stupid. Same applies here.
 
Nadal_Freak

Nadal_Freak

Banned
navratilovafan said:
So does she mysteriously never play her best then. 4-1 Henin leads Serena on clay. That is like saying Federer's best is better then Nadal's best on clay even though Nadal leads 5-1, which would be stupid. Same applies here.
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Well she did beat Henin. Federer's best beats Nadal at well. Not likely Serena plays her best but it can happen.
 
B

Bones08

Professional
Mary Joe is right...as is every other commentator....Serena's best beats everyone else...Mary Joe chose Henin to win the match, so i don't know what you mean...and the only thing that is really scary is that Serena hasn't played her best not once this year!!!
 
navratilovafan

navratilovafan

Banned
The only Serena's best on clay would beat Justine's best on clay is if it were a mystical best that Serena is not really capable of on clay vs a player of Justine's caliber.
 
Alexandros

Alexandros

Professional
Australian Open 2007, against Sharapova. That would be Serena's best (or very close to it). Taking returns early and slamming them back for winners or unreturnables with impunity, serving exceptionally well and hitting the corners and dictating play. Basically playing first strike tennis. Now Henin plays such excellent defense and varies her play so well that she can move Serena out of her comfort zone, but at the same time, have we seen the AO 2007 Serena play against Justine? No, not really.
 
L

LarougeNY

Professional
dima said:
Such a ******** argument, Right NOW Henin is better than Serena. Case closed.
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I think thats the best answer. Unfortunately for serena, she hasn't been able to keep the progress going because of injuries, so she took long breaks where she didn't play and had to make a comeback.
 
navratilovafan

navratilovafan

Banned
Alexandros said:
Australian Open 2007, against Sharapova. That would be Serena's best (or very close to it). Taking returns early and slamming them back for winners or unreturnables with impunity, serving exceptionally well and hitting the corners and dictating play. Basically playing first strike tennis. Now Henin plays such excellent defense and varies her play so well that she can move Serena out of her comfort zone, but at the same time, have we seen the AO 2007 Serena play against Justine? No, not really.
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So are you saying Serena never plays her best vs Justine? I find it hard to believe a player of her greatness never plays her best vs another great player. Serena has always beaten Justine on grass and hard courts, so it is very easy to say her best beats Justine there, although all but 1 of their matches on hard courts was before Justine was Justine, and when Serena was more dominant. However on clay the only way to justify that Serena's best is better then Justine's is to suggest she never plays her best, and for a player of her greatness I find that hard to believe.

Or if you are saying Serena never plays her best vs Justine after so many matches, then her best is such an unlikely and rare thing for her to produce that it wouldnt matter if her best would beat Justine on clay or not. If it that unlikely for her to produce based on her never playing it in all those matches, and that is what she needs to beat Justine on clay, then her hopes to beat Justine on clay are next to nil anyway then.
 
V

Vision84

Hall of Fame
Henin won't let Serena play her best because she mixes it up better and doesn't just bash from the basseline. Serena's style of play is just to one dimensional.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
The record speaks for itself. Jutsine is a better player than Serena on clay. Serena doesn't have the luxury of blasting her opponent off the court on clay like she does on other surfaces.

Once the "forced errors" and winners total goes down, she is left to long rallies, and this is not her strength.

What surprises me is that serena is a damn good volleyer, yet she doesn't come into the net a lot on clay to finish points, and give her opponent something to think about.
 
The Gorilla

The Gorilla

Banned
serena is fat and out of shape, she's in denial if she thinks she's going to win slams in that condition.

Doesn't she want to be a model or something?

No wonder Venus is so skinny, serena's eating all her food.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
The Gorilla said:
serena is fat and out of shape, she's in denial if she thinks she's going to win slams in that condition.

Doesn't she want to be a model or something?

No wonder Venus is so skinny, serena's eating all her food.
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Well, I agree she would be much better than she already is if she gets healthy and fitter. However, she should also try and tone her shots down some, and start mixing it up a bit. Her unforced errors per match are always on the high side, and her power is not as intimidating as it once was.
 
J-man

J-man

Hall of Fame
I wouldn't Serena is better than JH on clay. But when Serena is playing her best and playing her game she can beat Henin on Clay. In the match they played just watch when Serena was playing her game (during the match she made tons of unforced errors because she used her slice and tried to mix it up) Serena was able to take control of the points. And played it like she would a hardcourt match. Granted that a couple points does not simulate a match. But it still shows that when Serena is playing well and on her terms she can take to the cleaners
 
B

Bones08

Professional
J-man said:
I wouldn't Serena is better than JH on clay. But when Serena is playing her best and playing her game she can beat Henin on Clay. In the match they played just watch when Serena was playing her game (during the match she made tons of unforced errors because she used her slice and tried to mix it up) Serena was able to take control of the points. And played it like she would a hardcourt match. Granted that a couple points does not simulate a match. But it still shows that when Serena is playing well and on her terms she can take to the cleaners
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Very true assesment.
 
The Gorilla

The Gorilla

Banned
drakulie said:
Well, I agree she would be much better than she already is if she gets healthy and fitter. However, she should also try and tone her shots down some, and start mixing it up a bit. Her unforced errors per match are always on the high side, and her power is not as intimidating as it once was.
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Well, the way I see it is this:

1)Justine henin has far more powerful groundstrokes
2)she is a better mover,(although that's only because serena's fat
3)And as you pointed out she is nowhere near as intelligent a player as Justine Henin.
4)She does have one of the 2 best serves in the world though, and this is what has allowed her to keep damaging the top players.

My conclusion is that she is an massively inferior player at this point in time and it's no surprise she lost on clay where:

1)You have to be fit.
2)Have consistent powerful groundstrokes.
3)A serve isn't as potent a weapon.
 
T

theballboy

Rookie
The Gorilla said:
Well, the way I see it is this:

1)Justine henin has far more powerful groundstrokes
2)she is a better mover,(although that's only because serena's fat
3)And as you pointed out she is nowhere near as intelligent a player as Justine Henin.
4)She does have one of the 2 best serves in the world though, and this is what has allowed her to keep damaging the top players.

My conclusion is that she is an massively inferior player at this point in time and it's no surprise she lost on clay where:

1)You have to be fit.
2)Have consistent powerful groundstrokes.
3)A serve isn't as potent a weapon.
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Haha. Who says she isn't fit? You? She's faster on the court than everyone but maybe two people in the top ten, Henin and Mauresmo, and even then, I'd say she beats them in outright footspeed.

Her stamina is fine. have you seen her gasping for breath at all during the Aussie Open, Miami, or the French? In fact, Henin is the one with breathing problems. I'd bet money that Serena could last longer in a match than Justine.
 
K

krz

Professional
True, I really like Henin's game. It's the most complete game of any player male or female behind Rog of course, thats what makes those 2 players so great to watch.

I keep hearing Serena's best, if she only plays her best every once in a while then shes not the best. Part of being the best is consistency of her performances and she doesn't have it. And specially with her kind of game where she tries to hit big/winners all the time its kind of hard to win matches even when your the slightest bit off that day.

Saying Serena is the best because her best beats everybody is kinda like saying Safin is the best because his best beats anybody(Yes, I believe Safin is that good)
 
B

Bones08

Professional
krz said:
True, I really like Henin's game. It's the most complete game of any player male or female behind Rog of course, thats what makes those 2 players so great to watch.

I keep hearing Serena's best, if she only plays her best every once in a while then shes not the best. Part of being the best is consistency of her performances and she doesn't have it. And specially with her kind of game where she tries to hit big/winners all the time its kind of hard to win matches even when your the slightest bit off that day.

Saying Serena is the best because her best beats everybody is kinda like saying Safin is the best because his best beats anybody(Yes, I believe Safin is that good)
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But clearly Serena has been closer to her best because she has 8 grand slams and Safin has 2....that's not even considering all her injuries and the death of her sister...and the horrible knee surgery she recieved.
 
Slazenger

Slazenger

Professional
Ripper said:
You want a true assesment? Henin is the best female player out there, on any surface, PERIOD.
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So how did this 'best' player go 1 for 4 in grand slam finals last year?
Or how did this best player go from bagelling Serena to losing what should have been a routine match??

The reality is at her best Serena is better than Justine. At her best Serena can beat Justine on clay. Watch their Rome 2002 final. Both were playing awesome tennis, but Serena beat the clay queen on clay. On grass and hardcourt, it's Serena all the way!

Look at the Wimbledon 03 semifinal when Serena basically 'avenged' the hand incident. She blew Justine off court. Literally. (This is the same 03 that Justine won RG and USO)

The fact remains that Serena has beaten Justine on all surfaces and Justine has only beaten Serena on clay. Even this year with a past her peak Serena included.
 
Slazenger

Slazenger

Professional
The Gorilla said:
Well, the way I see it is this:

1)Justine henin has far more powerful groundstrokes
Click to expand...

Wrong. Serena packs more power off both wings easily. This is one reason why clay favours Henin.

The Gorilla said:
2)she is a better mover,(although that's only because serena's fat)
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Justine's footwork is amazing. I love watching her run around backhands to hit the off forehand. So athletic on the balls of her feet, always making those adjustment steps. Just perfect.

The Gorilla said:
3)And as you pointed out she is nowhere near as intelligent a player as Justine Henin.
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Serena does not get a lot of credit in this department. She is lumped with Sharapova, Mary Pierce and other big hitters. Serena is very intelligent on court. Especially if you saw Serena of the late 90s and early 2000 play. Mary Jo Fernandez (who played doubles against her) once commented at that time that she thought the drop volley would be Serena's trademark shot!
Serena's main game is to hit a big ball and draw errors but I have seen numerous matches where this is not working and she will start slicing backhands, hitting heavy topspin almost moonballing, trying to give her opponent a different look.
The problem is her feel is not at Henin's level so she comes up short in her execution but Serena has a lot of court sense.

The Gorilla said:
4)She does have one of the 2 best serves in the world though, and this is what has allowed her to keep damaging the top players.
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Serena's serve is the best in women's tennis right now. Her pace, accuracy, depth and variety have been with her throughout her career.
Her kick serve, KICKS. It was that heavy kick to Justine's backhand that drew the error and won her matchpoint at Miami this year.

Her favourite serve on the duece court is the angled slider out wide. Tons of sidespin on that shot. and of course she has the flat bombs which she can place in all four corners
 
T

ta11geese3

Semi-Pro
If I didn't know any better, I would have thought you guys accidently wrote serena instead of safin! And Henin instead of *insert any top 50 pro*
 
navratilovafan

navratilovafan

Banned
Slazenger said:
The reality is at her best Serena is better than Justine.
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Not on clay which is the point of this thread.

At her best Serena can beat Justine on clay.
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Only if Justine is off form, as Serena's 1-4 head to head with Justine on clay proves. Justine also beat Serena 3 times in her prime on clay, during her most dominant 2 years. Serena's only win over Justine was not in her prime, it was when she was barely a top tenner.

Watch their Rome 2002 final. Both were playing awesome tennis, but Serena beat the clay queen on clay.
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ROTFL!! Justine was almost a year atleast from the start of her prime in 2002. She was barely a top 10 player then as I said. So if that version of Justine was having that tight a match with Serena on clay when according to you both were playing awesome that stands her in good stead when in her prime.

Anyway watch the 2002 Berlin final and 2003 Charleston final. Both were playing great tennis and Justine won both. The 2002 Berlin final was a green Justine like I said, and she won in 3 sets. The 2003 Charleston final was a Justine coming into her own and she won a comfortable straight sets.
 
Last edited:
THUNDERVOLLEY

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
drakulie said:
What surprises me is that serena is a damn good volleyer, yet she doesn't come into the net a lot on clay to finish points, and give her opponent something to think about.
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I was thinking the same thing. If you have the skill, USE it on all surfaces.
 
D

deucecourt

Rookie
I'm sorry but Serena "Barry Bonds" Williams has a tremendous size advantage over most WTA players. She probably weighs around 170lbs and that may be more than some top 10 guys. Serena should dominate
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
One can admire her fighting spirit on court, but there is so much wrong in the PR dept. of Serena's game. Her remarks following the match with Henin really were IMO those of a sore loser, who never concedes anyone else could play better than themselves.

"She played decent....That's all, just decent."

So very typical of her however, and unfortunately.

I think just with basic common sense and fairness, a player shouldn't be so arrogant as to be unable to admit someone else played better than themselves on a given day. Not a matter of "I didn't play my best today, otherwise I would have won" crap that Serena always spouts if she loses.
 
Alexandros

Alexandros

Professional
navratilovafan said:
So are you saying Serena never plays her best vs Justine? I find it hard to believe a player of her greatness never plays her best vs another great player. Serena has always beaten Justine on grass and hard courts, so it is very easy to say her best beats Justine there, although all but 1 of their matches on hard courts was before Justine was Justine, and when Serena was more dominant. However on clay the only way to justify that Serena's best is better then Justine's is to suggest she never plays her best, and for a player of her greatness I find that hard to believe.

Or if you are saying Serena never plays her best vs Justine after so many matches, then her best is such an unlikely and rare thing for her to produce that it wouldnt matter if her best would beat Justine on clay or not. If it that unlikely for her to produce based on her never playing it in all those matches, and that is what she needs to beat Justine on clay, then her hopes to beat Justine on clay are next to nil anyway then.
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A fair point, and in a nutshell: yes, Serena has never produced her best agaist Henin on clay. Her 'best' play doesn't happen particularly often, but on other non clay surfaces she doesn't necessarily need to be at the top of her game to beat Henin.

So generally speaking, Henin is almost always going to beat Serena on clay, that's a given. The only point I wanted to make was that if Serena manages to zone in and produce tennis like she did in that AO 07 final, I would back her to beat whatever Henin can come up with.
 
navratilovafan

navratilovafan

Banned
Alexandros said:
A fair point, and in a nutshell: yes, Serena has never produced her best agaist Henin on clay. Her 'best' play doesn't happen particularly often, but on other non clay surfaces she doesn't necessarily need to be at the top of her game to beat Henin.

So generally speaking, Henin is almost always going to beat Serena on clay, that's a given. The only point I wanted to make was that if Serena manages to zone in and produce tennis like she did in that AO 07 final, I would back her to beat whatever Henin can come up with.
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OK fair enough. I see your reasoning there. Thanks for clarifying what you meant.
 
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