Nadal wasn't tired or unfit, he was confused.

JustBob

JustBob

Hall of Fame
We all know that Rada has a huge psychological advantage over Fed (i.e. "he's in his head") and that he approaches matches against him with the same confidence and mindset:

"Regardless of how well he plays (serve, forehand), I will relentlessly pound his backhand and I will win." (NOTE: My made-up quote, not Rafa's... well ok, perhaps this shoudn't be a quote :) )

Well lo and behold, that didn't work this time. Fed changed tactics and, instead of the usual steady diet of sliced BH, he unleashed a wide variety of topspin angled BH, flat BH returns down the middle, not to mention a very effective wide serve on the deuce court, and generally more aggressive play.

I noticed that Rafa, at times, had this "wtf?" look on his face, puzzled in front of a version of Federer he had never encountered before. So what might have been misconstrued for fatigue or lack of fitness (silly...) was merely surprise and confusion, which leads to frustration and lapses in concentration.

This win is huge for Fed not because he won, but because of HOW he won. Has he turned the tables on the psychological warfare with Rafa? A little yes, but until he can duplicate this win in a slam final, we'll have to file this into the (perhaps temporary) "boost of confidence" folder for now.

Regardless, 2011 should be an interesting year.
 
Last edited:
wangs78

wangs78

Legend
JustBob said:
We all know that Rada has a huge psychological advantage over Fed (i.e. "he's in his head") and that he approaches matches against him with the same confidence and mindset:

"Regardless of how well he plays (serve, forehand), I will relentlessly pound his backhand and I will win."

Well lo and behold, that didn't work this time. Fed changed tactics and, instead of the usual steady diet of sliced BH, he unleashed a wide variety of topspin angled BH, flat BH returns down the middle, not to mention a very effective wide serve on the deuce court, and generally more aggressive play.

I noticed that Rafa, at times, had this "wtf?" look on his face facing a version of Federer he had never encountered before. So what might have been misconstrued for fatigue or lack of fitness (silly...) was merely surprise and confusion, which leads to frustration and lapses in concentration.

This win is huge for Fed not because he won, but because of HOW he won. Has he turned the tables on the psychological warfare with Rafa? A little yes, but until he can duplicate this win in a slam final, we'll have to file this into the (perhaps temporary) "boost of confidence" for now.

Regardless, 2011 should be an interesting year.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with you. Should be said that the surface made it a bit easier to Fed to pound those topspin backhands. I'd love to see Fed do this at RG, but am a bit skeptical given the ball bounces much higher there. We'll see how things go next year :)
 
T

TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
Very good post/thread OP. I completely agree.
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
JustBob said:
We all know that Rada has a huge psychological advantage over Fed (i.e. "he's in his head") and that he approaches matches against him with the same confidence and mindset:

"Regardless of how well he plays (serve, forehand), I will relentlessly pound his backhand and I will win."

Well lo and behold, that didn't work this time. Fed changed tactics and, instead of the usual steady diet of sliced BH, he unleashed a wide variety of topspin angled BH, flat BH returns down the middle, not to mention a very effective wide serve on the deuce court, and generally more aggressive play.

I noticed that Rafa, at times, had this "wtf?" look on his face facing a version of Federer he had never encountered before. So what might have been misconstrued for fatigue or lack of fitness (silly...) was merely surprise and confusion, which leads to frustration and lapses in concentration.

This win is huge for Fed not because he won, but because of HOW he won. Has he turned the tables on the psychological warfare with Rafa? A little yes, but until he can duplicate this win in a slam final, we'll have to file this into the (perhaps temporary) "boost of confidence" for now.

Regardless, 2011 should be an interesting year.
Click to expand...

Rafa always has that look on his face when his opponent is too good, not of surprise but of frustration about not being able to do anything.

Federer played amazing but Nadal has to be kicking himself for letting a 0-30 at 3-3 in the first go unpunished or missing that easy peasy forehand at 0-15 on Fed's serve in the third. He even put his hands on his head after that one, he was doing that only at the end of last year when he was missing.

I do think that there was one moment when Federer surprised Nadal. In the first set when he came out firing. Fed came just about as motivated as Rafa did in the Madrid 2010 final. Before Nadal knew what was up, he lost the first set.

In the second, when Fed's serve reached more humane levels, Nadal took advantage of his one shot and took that break and subsequently won the set. But even as the second set was going on Fed's serve started to come back and his ground game started clicking again.

The key was obviously in the third set, at that 0-15 where Nadal misses a easy forehand. That's huge pressure on Fed, to have 0-30 in the decider with Nadal, with Nadal mounting a comeback. Instead Fed held and Nadal managed to get broken in his service game from 40-15, after making a couple easy mistakes, allowing fed to come to deuce. That was basically it.

The second break came naturally to be honest. The match deflated at that point. Even though Fed was better, both guys had basically the same amount of chances up to that point and since Fed took the last one, he won.

I wouldn't say he solved his Nadal mental hurdle cause he did get very tight(allowing Nadal a look at a deuce at 1-3 I believe) and he messed up some easy balls in the last game. I though the commentators were hilarious when speaking at 1-5, "surely this should be enough to win against Nadal". I know Rafa has quite the mental warrior image but come on, that's a double break with the serve.

Not to mention that this court favored Federer and made things easier for him on BH.

This match should scare both fanbases a bit IMO.

Nadal fans saw that full flight fed is near impossible to stop on HC.

Fed fans saw that one dip in Fed's game can make him surrender a set to his rival on his rival's worst surface.

I for one will believe that Fed solved his Nadal puzzle if he can handle high balls on the BH side in courts like IW,WB,Miami,not to mention clay courts. If he can do that, he has the upper hand. If not, he is still in trouble.

Also, it has to be said that Fed had nothing to lose here. Who would have rambled about the 29 year old losing to Rafa in the best year of his life?

With this in mind, he played more freely.

I wonder if Federer can bring the same calm and relaxed manner(and execution) to a five set match with Nadal with a GS on the line.
 
Last edited:
T

TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
namelessone said:
Rafa always has that look on his face when his opponent is too good, not of surprise but of frustration about not being able to do anything.

Federer played amazing but Nadal has to be kicking himself for letting a 0-30 at 3-3 in the first go unpunished or missing that easy peasy forehand at 0-15 on Fed's serve in the third. He even put his hands on his head after that one, he was doing that only at the end of last year when he was missing.

I do think that there was one moment when Federer surprised Nadal. In the first set when he came out firing. Fed came just about as motivated as Rafa did in the Madrid 2010 final. Before Nadal knew what was up, he lost the first set.

In the second, when Fed's serve reached more humane levels, Nadal took advantage of his one shot and took that break and subsequently won the set. But even as the second set was going on Fed's serve started to come back.

The key was obviously in the third set, at that 0-15 where Nadal misses a easy forehand. That's huge pressure on Fed, to have 0-30 in the decider with Nadal, with Nadal mounting a comeback. Instead Fed held and Nadal managed to get broken in his service game from 40-15, after making a couple easy mistakes, allowing fed to come to deuce. That was basically it.

The second break came naturally to be honest. The match deflated at that point. Even though Fed was better, both guys had basically the same amount of chances up to that point and since Fed took the last one, he won.

I wouldn't say he solved his Nadal mental hurdle cause he did get very tight(allowing Nadal a look at a deuce at 1-3 I believe) and he messed up some easy balls in the last game. I though the commentators were hilarious when speaking at 1-5, "surely this should be enough to win against Nadal". I know Rafa has quite the mental warrior image but come on, that's a double break with the serve.

Not to mention that this court favored Federer and made things easier for him on BH.

This match should scare both fanbases a bit IMO.

Nadal fans saw that full flight fed is near impossible to stop on HC.

Fed fans saw that one dip in Fed's game can make him surrender a set to his rival on his rival's worst surface.

I for one will believe that Fed solved his Nadal puzzle if he can handle high balls on the BH side in courts like IW,Miami,not to mention clay courts. If he can do that, he has the upper hand. If not, he is still in trouble.
Click to expand...

Very good and interesting post. Do you think Federer has changed his backhand-technique or was he just able to find new angels due to the low bounce in London?
 
BreakPoint

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
I happen to think that if Federer hadn't slipped and fallen in the middle of the 2nd set, he may not have lost that set.

Nadal was up a break at 3-1 in the 2nd set, serving at 40-30. Nadal's shot hits the net but pops up into a short ball inside the service line for a sitter on the deuce side of the court. Federer normally runs up and clocks a forehand winner off of balls like that. Unfortunately, he slipped and fell trying to suddenly change directions due to the let cord. Had he not slipped, he most likely would have won that point and got to deuce. Then who knows what may have happened? He had a good chance to break back since he broke Nadal's serve so many times in that match. Then the set may have gone to 4-4 or 5-5 or a tiebreak and Federer may just have won it. So personally, I blame that slip (bad shoes?) for Federer not winning that match in straight sets. :)
 
Last edited:
M

meg0529

Guest
Rafito ain't dumb. Even in his presser, he knew EXACTLY what Fed had changed, he didn't need time to sit down and re-watch the match, he knew. Fed had a plan and its execution was flawless, things were clicking, and Nadal was not in the mood to chase anything down. Rafa is ALWAYS working to improve, it's why he's come so far. Also, if you noticed, once Nadal saw what Fed was trying to do in the first set, in the second set he changed up his strategy a bit, gave him a break and he won it. At the end though Fed just played a perfect game and was too good.

Cute theory tho.
 
JustBob

JustBob

Hall of Fame
namelessone said:
I for one will believe that Fed solved his Nadal puzzle if he can handle high balls on the BH side in courts like IW,WB,Miami,not to mention clay courts. If he can do that, he has the upper hand. If not, he is still in trouble.

Also, it has to be said that Fed had nothing to lose here. Who would have rambled about the 29 year old losing to Rafa in the best year of his life?

With this in mind, he played more freely.

I wonder if Federer can bring the same calm and relaxed manner(and execution) to a five set match with Nadal with a GS on the line.
Click to expand...

I agree. As I suggested in my last paragraph, it would be rather premature to draw definitive conclusions based on a single match. We will have to wait and see how Fed can handle higher bouncing surfaces that take spin better.

As for dips in level of play in a match, I personnally do not believe they are that meaningfull. While it is true that one dip in your level of play can cost you a match, these are the norm rather than the exception in tennis matches. I believe that Fed and Rafa have set such high standards that when such dips in their level of play occur, people tend to conclude that "there's something wrong with them".
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
TheMagicianOfPrecision said:
Very good and interesting post. Do you think Federer has changed his backhand-technique or was he just able to find new angels due to the low bounce in London?
Click to expand...

I'm no expert to say things about Fed's BH, if he changed it or not, but the low bounce did help him, that's beyond doubt. As Goodall and Koenig said, the difference on bounce between this court and say a clay court was like 30 cm(1,1 to 1,4m).

Now Federer did step in more to return Nadal's serve(especially the second one) in a more aggressive manner on the BH and Nadal's new serve worked with him on this one. Nadal hits his new serve flatter and this was more comfortable for Fed, as not only was it readable(bh side 90% of the time) but it gave him pace to redirect. It remains to be seen if Nadal brings more spin to his first serve again for his next fed meeting.

It's not like Federer can't do anything with Nadal on his BH on a higher bouncing court, see AO 09' final, but it does cut on his comfort level significantly. Nadal will have to get that fh dtl back if he wants to beat Fed, that shot always did fed in when it was on cause Fed was guarding his bh side all the time and Rafa would surprise him up the line.

One thing that I thought was very significant for both guys games in the final: Nadal did not hit a single successful passing shot all match. Someone correct me on this one if I am wrong but I don't seem to remember a single one, only baseline winners or Fed errors.
 
U

Upperhand

Banned
Nadal did not take advantage of a Fed dip in the second set, Federer handed it to him with unforced errors, i.e. crappy serving.
 
JustBob

JustBob

Hall of Fame
meg0529 said:
Rafito ain't dumb. Even in his presser, he knew EXACTLY what Fed had changed, he didn't need time to sit down and re-watch the match, he knew. Fed had a plan and its execution was flawless, things were clicking, and Nadal was not in the mood to chase anything down. Rafa is ALWAYS working to improve, it's why he's come so far. Also, if you noticed, once Nadal saw what Fed was trying to do in the first set, in the second set he changed up his strategy a bit, gave him a break and he won it. At the end though Fed just played a perfect game and was too good.

Cute theory tho.
Click to expand...

"Rafa was not in the mood to chase everything down" is a much cuter theory. :)

FYI, I never suggested that Rafa was dumb or unwilling to improve. The question is what adjustments will he be able to make if Fed uses the same strategy the next time they play.
 
M

meg0529

Guest
JustBob said:
"Rafa was not in the mood to chase everything down" is a much cuter theory. :)

FYI, I never suggested that Rafa was dumb or unwilling to improve. The question is what adjustments will he be able to make if Fed uses the same strategy the next time they play.
Click to expand...

We'll have to wait and watch, no?
 
D

Deleted member 3771

Guest
JustBob said:
We all know that Rada has a huge psychological advantage over Fed (i.e. "he's in his head") and that he approaches matches against him with the same confidence and mindset:

"Regardless of how well he plays (serve, forehand), I will relentlessly pound his backhand and I will win." (NOTE: My made-up quote, not Rafa's... well ok, perhaps this shoudn't be a quote :) )

Well lo and behold, that didn't work this time. Fed changed tactics and, instead of the usual steady diet of sliced BH, he unleashed a wide variety of topspin angled BH, flat BH returns down the middle, not to mention a very effective wide serve on the deuce court, and generally more aggressive play.

I noticed that Rafa, at times, had this "wtf?" look on his face, puzzled in front of a version of Federer he had never encountered before. So what might have been misconstrued for fatigue or lack of fitness (silly...) was merely surprise and confusion, which leads to frustration and lapses in concentration.

This win is huge for Fed not because he won, but because of HOW he won. Has he turned the tables on the psychological warfare with Rafa? A little yes, but until he can duplicate this win in a slam final, we'll have to file this into the (perhaps temporary) "boost of confidence" folder for now.

Regardless, 2011 should be an interesting year.
Click to expand...


Rafa still managed to win a set despite being tired and having an injured foot and he showed great sportsmanship by not making any excuse about it in the press conference - that's why he's the Edberg sportsmanship winner.

Federer clinches London title against tired Nadal

Federer frustrates tired Nadal to win 5th year-end ATP title

Federer overcomes mental obstacle to defeat tired Nadal
 
JustBob

JustBob

Hall of Fame
TheNatural said:
Rafa still managed to win a set despite being tired and having an injured foot and he showed great sportsmanship by not making any excuse about it in the press conference - that's why he's the Edberg sportsmanship winner.

Federer clinches London title against tired Nadal

Federer frustrates tired Nadal to win 5th year-end ATP title

Federer overcomes mental obstacle to defeat tired Nadal
Click to expand...

Unless you are being sarcastic, I simply do not buy the "Nadal was tired", "Nadal was injured" excuses. And I have no time or desire to engage in discussions which revolve around such "****" arguments.
 
T

TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
Tired Nadal tired Nadal tired Nadal...OK! Then he should find a way to beat his opponents in less than 3 hours. Its a good thing the history-books doesnt say (oh but he was tired that time!):-?
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
TheNatural said:
Rafa still managed to win a set despite being tired and having an injured foot and he showed great sportsmanship by not making any excuse about it in the press conference - that's why he's the Edberg sportsmanship winner.

Federer clinches London title against tired Nadal

Federer frustrates tired Nadal to win 5th year-end ATP title

Federer overcomes mental obstacle to defeat tired Nadal
Click to expand...

LOLWUT?

So Rafa now has a injured foot cause Rusedski saw him grimacing a bit?

Talk about exaggerating?

But I do agree with Rusedski about Nadal not moving as well as in the murray match and about the importance of this match to Fed's confidence.
 
P_Agony

P_Agony

Banned
namelessone said:
LOLWUT?

So Rafa now has a injured foot cause Rusedski saw him grimacing a bit?

Talk about exaggerating?

But I do agree with Rusedski about Nadal not moving as well as in the murray match and about the importance of this match to Fed's confidence.
Click to expand...

Rafa started moving a lot better in the 2nd set while Fed was the one looking slower and more sluggish. It happens when your confidence changes. Rafa saw an aggressive Federer in the 1st set, who barely missed any shots and just went for it and his strokes clicked perfectly. That puts doubt in your mind, and the result is poorer footwork. Because Rafa is Rafa, he managed to put it behind him in the 2nd set and just wait for his chance, which he got once Fed's 1st serve failed him a bit and he started to miss a little more.

Overall though, I thought the first 2 sets were pretty steady from both players. Nadal had one bad game in the 1st, Fed had one bad game in the 2nd, and in the 3rd Nadal just looked a bit lost and Fed got his game back and working.

That's something Fed must have worked on, because back in 2008 and 2009 Fed started to have these weird matches where he wins the 1st set and then disappears mentally. He lost those types of matches to Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Simon, Berdych, Baggy, and even Roddick (yes, Roddick, back in 2008). What impressed me most about this WTF was Federer's mindset. He kept his cool in the matches and didn't let go of his gameplan.
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
P_Agony said:
Rafa started moving a lot better in the 2nd set while Fed was the one looking slower and more sluggish. It happens when your confidence changes. Rafa saw an aggressive Federer in the 1st set, who barely missed any shots and just went for it and his strokes clicked perfectly. That puts doubt in your mind, and the result is poorer footwork. Because Rafa is Rafa, he managed to put it behind him in the 2nd set and just wait for his chance, which he got once Fed's 1st serve failed him a bit and he started to miss a little more.

Overall though, I thought the first 2 sets were pretty steady from both players. Nadal had one bad game in the 1st, Fed had one bad game in the 2nd, and in the 3rd Nadal just looked a bit lost and Fed got his game back and working.

That's something Fed must have worked on, because back in 2008 and 2009 Fed started to have these weird matches where he wins the 1st set and then disappears mentally. He lost those types of matches to Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Simon, Berdych, Baggy, and even Roddick (yes, Roddick, back in 2008). What impressed me most about this WTF was Federer's mindset. He kept his cool in the matches and didn't let go of his gameplan.
Click to expand...

Yeah, overall I agree with your points.

Federer still has that second set drop sometimes though but I guess on some level it's normal cause you already have a lead.
 
illkhiboy

illkhiboy

Hall of Fame
namelessone said:
Rafa always has that look on his face when his opponent is too good, not of surprise but of frustration about not being able to do anything.

Federer played amazing but Nadal has to be kicking himself for letting a 0-30 at 3-3 in the first go unpunished or missing that easy peasy forehand at 0-15 on Fed's serve in the third. He even put his hands on his head after that one, he was doing that only at the end of last year when he was missing.

I do think that there was one moment when Federer surprised Nadal. In the first set when he came out firing. Fed came just about as motivated as Rafa did in the Madrid 2010 final. Before Nadal knew what was up, he lost the first set.

In the second, when Fed's serve reached more humane levels, Nadal took advantage of his one shot and took that break and subsequently won the set. But even as the second set was going on Fed's serve started to come back and his ground game started clicking again.

The key was obviously in the third set, at that 0-15 where Nadal misses a easy forehand. That's huge pressure on Fed, to have 0-30 in the decider with Nadal, with Nadal mounting a comeback. Instead Fed held and Nadal managed to get broken in his service game from 40-15, after making a couple easy mistakes, allowing fed to come to deuce. That was basically it.

The second break came naturally to be honest. The match deflated at that point. Even though Fed was better, both guys had basically the same amount of chances up to that point and since Fed took the last one, he won.

I wouldn't say he solved his Nadal mental hurdle cause he did get very tight(allowing Nadal a look at a deuce at 1-3 I believe) and he messed up some easy balls in the last game. I though the commentators were hilarious when speaking at 1-5, "surely this should be enough to win against Nadal". I know Rafa has quite the mental warrior image but come on, that's a double break with the serve.

Not to mention that this court favored Federer and made things easier for him on BH.

This match should scare both fanbases a bit IMO.

Nadal fans saw that full flight fed is near impossible to stop on HC.

Fed fans saw that one dip in Fed's game can make him surrender a set to his rival on his rival's worst surface.

I for one will believe that Fed solved his Nadal puzzle if he can handle high balls on the BH side in courts like IW,WB,Miami,not to mention clay courts. If he can do that, he has the upper hand. If not, he is still in trouble.

Also, it has to be said that Fed had nothing to lose here. Who would have rambled about the 29 year old losing to Rafa in the best year of his life?

With this in mind, he played more freely.

I wonder if Federer can bring the same calm and relaxed manner(and execution) to a five set match with Nadal with a GS on the line.
Click to expand...

Interesting points.

I don't think Federer will analyse this match as deeply as you have. He will take a few pointers and be ever more confident about beating Nadal. I think his game plan was fine. Yeah he got a bit tight at 3-1, and his serve went to deuce. But that out wide serve bailed him out. So he got through it. Next time it could be the serve up the T, who knows?

You make good observations about the crucial points in the match. 3-3, 0-30. Third set, Nadal controls that 0-15 rally on Federer's serve. But you made a mistake, Nadal missed a relatively easy backhand up the line not a forehand. It wasn't the easiest shot but he should at least have kept the ball in play. A bit indecisive there. But once that opportunity went, Federer was all over Nadal.

I think it just goes to show you how close of a match it was. And that Nadal could have just about beaten Federer if he had taken one of those opportunities.
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
illkhiboy said:
Interesting points.

I don't think Federer will analyse this match as deeply as you have. He will take a few pointers and be ever more confident about beating Nadal. I think his game plan was fine. Yeah he got a bit tight at 3-1, and his serve went to deuce. But that out wide serve bailed him out. So he got through it. Next time it could be the serve up the T, who knows?

You make good observations about the crucial points in the match. 3-3, 0-30. Third set, Nadal controls that 0-15 rally on Federer's serve. But you made a mistake, Nadal missed a relatively easy backhand up the line not a forehand. It wasn't the easiest shot but he should at least have kept the ball in play. A bit indecisive there. But once that opportunity went, Federer was all over Nadal.

I think it just goes to show you how close of a match it was. And that Nadal could have just about beaten Federer if he had taken one of those opportunities.
Click to expand...

Am I remembering it wrong? Wasn't it that missed forehand on Fed's BH side, that went just wide (and Nadal put his hands on his head after that in frustration)?
 
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
TheNatural said:
Rafa still managed to win a set despite being tired and having an injured foot and he showed great sportsmanship by not making any excuse about it in the press conference - that's why he's the Edberg sportsmanship winner.

Federer clinches London title against tired Nadal

Federer frustrates tired Nadal to win 5th year-end ATP title

Federer overcomes mental obstacle to defeat tired Nadal
Click to expand...

I've heard this story before. Like, every other time Rafa has ever lost a match.

He was probably healthy for 71 matches this year, and either tired or injured for the other 10.
 
Last edited:
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
P_Agony said:
That's something Fed must have worked on, because back in 2008 and 2009 Fed started to have these weird matches where he wins the 1st set and then disappears mentally. He lost those types of matches to Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Simon, Berdych, Baggy, and even Roddick (yes, Roddick, back in 2008). What impressed me most about this WTF was Federer's mindset. He kept his cool in the matches and didn't let go of his gameplan.
Click to expand...

That makes me think of RG Final 2006? against Nadal when he won the first set 6-1 and was just thrashing him, almost too easily. Then he started choking and disappeared. I really thought he was going to win that one.
 
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
namelessone said:
This match should scare both fanbases a bit IMO.

Nadal fans saw that full flight fed is near impossible to stop on HC.

Fed fans saw that one dip in Fed's game can make him surrender a set to his rival on his rival's worst surface.
Click to expand...

No kidding. After the second set was complete Roger probably had double the winners and similar UE's to Rafa, yet the scoreline was even 1 set all. That IS scary because he only played one bad game where he couldn't buy a first serve and started pressing, and just like that he lost the set.
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
Polvorin said:
That makes me think of RG Final 2006? against Nadal when he won the first set 6-1 and was just thrashing him, almost too easily. Then he started choking and disappeared. I really thought he was going to win that one.
Click to expand...

Yes, but that was in Fed's best year. He almost beat Nadal in rome 2006 too.

Also, you have to remember that Rafa is basically like diesel, a slow starter but once he gets going he is hard to stop.

Not to mention that one can only withstand so many whipped forehands up high to the backhand.
 
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
namelessone said:
Yes, but that was in Fed's best year. He almost beat Nadal in rome 2006 too.

Also, you have to remember that Rafa is basically like diesel, a slow starter but once he gets going he is hard to stop.

Not to mention that one can only withstand so many whipped forehands up high to the backhand.
Click to expand...

Fair enough but I still thought and think it was more mental than anything else.
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
Polvorin said:
Fair enough but I still thought and think it was more mental than anything else.
Click to expand...

All tennis is mental, in fact I would say it's 60% mental and 40% skill.

There were many skilled players in history that didn't win s**t.

If you can't hold it together, you don't deserve to win, no matter how good you are.

You have to understand that playing Nadal on clay is like torture, especially for Fed. When Fed dispatches you on a quick surface it's like a clean cut, with a sharp knife or scalpel. It's over in a sec. Playing Nadal on clay is more akin to getting bludgeoned again and again with spin, it's slow, painful and messy. That messes up your mind badly, no matter who you are.

The Fed-Nadal dynamic on clay is pretty much like Rafa-Murray on HC. Fed gets tight when he has chances against Rafa on clay cause he knows that he usually won't get many ; Rafa can't convert with Murray and even when he does, Murray usually re-breaks pretty quickly. They can't convert because of the pressure of playing their bad matchups on their fav surfaces.
 
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
namelessone said:
All tennis is mental, in fact I would say it's 60% mental and 40% skill.

There were many skilled players in history that didn't win s**t.

If you can't hold it together, you don't deserve to win, no matter how good you are.

You have to understand that playing Nadal on clay is like torture, especially for Fed. When Fed dispatches you on a quick surface it's like a clean cut, with a sharp knife or scalpel. It's over in a sec. Playing Nadal on clay is more akin to getting bludgeoned again and again with spin, it's slow, painful and messy. That messes up your mind badly, no matter who you are.

The Fed-Nadal dynamic on clay is pretty much like Rafa-Murray on HC. Fed gets tight when he has chances against Rafa on clay cause he knows that he usually won't get many ; Rafa can't convert with Murray and even when he does, Murray usually re-breaks pretty quickly. They can't convert because of the pressure of playing their bad matchups on their fav surfaces.
Click to expand...

Oh, yes I totally agree with you on both points. Otherwise Safin would have won God knows how many slams and guys like Corretja would have ended up with 3 or 4.

Also, the fact that Roger has gotten tight and choked away many chances against Nadal surely has done damage while matches like the one on Sunday shouldn't hurt Nadal because it really wasn't in his control.
 
I

IvanisevicServe

Banned
The difference was Federer was playing aggressive and hitting his marks. That's the way to beat Nadal; run him back and forth along the baseline and dictate as many points that way as possible. Sometimes he may come up with the incredible defensive points he's known for, but over the course of a full match of that his odds of winning that way dwindle.

Nadal just simply wasn't hitting winners and the match was therefore on Federer's racket.

As for "Nadal was tired"...wasn't Nadal exhausted in the 2009 AO final and he still went on to beat Federer in 5? What's a little 3 set match the day before, compared to a 5 set epic the prior night?

I actually like Federer's odds against Nadal on clay much more than I would in the past; there's no pressure on him to beat him there anymore as he has already captured his French Open title. Anything else on that surface is just a bonus, so he can play relaxed and free. I think a Federer/Nadal match at Roland Garros next year would be VERY intriguing...especially if Federer wins the Australian Open to really silence the critics leading up to it.
 
BreakPoint

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
namelessone said:
I'm no expert to say things about Fed's BH, if he changed it or not, but the low bounce did help him, that's beyond doubt. As Goodall and Koenig said, the difference on bounce between this court and say a clay court was like 30 cm(1,1 to 1,4m).
Click to expand...
Well, that's obvious. It's a hardcourt. Almost all clay courts will bounce higher than a hardcourt. But was the bounce lower than that at the US Open? Not a chance! I'm sure the bounce at the US Open is even lower. That's why Nadal probably would have lost to Federer at the US Open. Because not only is the bounce lower, but the speed is much faster than at the WTF.
 
BreakPoint

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
IvanisevicServe said:
I actually like Federer's odds against Nadal on clay much more than I would in the past; there's no pressure on him to beat him there anymore as he has already captured his French Open title. Anything else on that surface is just a bonus, so he can play relaxed and free. I think a Federer/Nadal match at Roland Garros next year would be VERY intriguing...especially if Federer wins the Australian Open to really silence the critics leading up to it.
Click to expand...
Agreed! :)
 
JeMar

JeMar

Legend
So, I finally had a chance to watch the complete match.

I've gotta say that what I found the most promising from watching this is that Federer finally seems to have the right attitude when playing Nadal.

What I thought Annacone would bring to Federer's game was not a matter of a high backhand or crosscourt forehands, but rather an attitude thing. I hoped that Federer would help Federer develop the same kind of "**** YOU, I have more talent in my pinky than you have in your entire body" attitude that Sampras used to have when he played. Too often when playing Nadal, Federer would just kind of lower his eyes and be passive. In this match, Federer just went and tried to hit Nadal off the court. High backhand? Roll that crap sharply crosscourt. Serve wide to the backhand? Run around it or chip it back and go after the second ball.

Federer/Nadal matches are about the most frustrating watches for me to watch because Federer seems to just go brain dead when he sees Nadal on the other side of the net. Federer is an extremely talented shotmaker, just like Sampras, and it's about time that he started to take that fact into his matches with Nadal.
 
roundiesee

roundiesee

Hall of Fame
illkhiboy said:
Interesting points.

I don't think Federer will analyse this match as deeply as you have. He will take a few pointers and be ever more confident about beating Nadal. I think his game plan was fine. Yeah he got a bit tight at 3-1, and his serve went to deuce. But that out wide serve bailed him out. So he got through it. Next time it could be the serve up the T, who knows?

You make good observations about the crucial points in the match. 3-3, 0-30. Third set, Nadal controls that 0-15 rally on Federer's serve. But you made a mistake, Nadal missed a relatively easy backhand up the line not a forehand. It wasn't the easiest shot but he should at least have kept the ball in play. A bit indecisive there. But once that opportunity went, Federer was all over Nadal.

I think it just goes to show you how close of a match it was. And that Nadal could have just about beaten Federer if he had taken one of those opportunities.
Click to expand...

This is a good thread with very good analyses of the match.

To me, I agree with the above. In the third set, right after Fed broke Nadal, Nadal continuously hit to Fed's backhand and won 3 points (I think) off Fed's backhand errors, BUT Federer's wide serve on the deuce side saved him. I mean, how often do we see Rafa returning into the net 4 times in a row on the deuce side when Fed served wide? It is probably not going to happen again anytime soon! :) Fed's serve on this side was fantastically effective! The game then went to deuce and when Fed had advantage, he served an ace to win the game for a 4-1 lead. If Rafa had broken back, the score in the third set would have been closer.
Overall the match was really closer than the score suggested. But I am glad that Federer did carry out his game plan to the letter! :)
 
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
Nadal has been torturing Fed with the slice serve out wide for years. I guess he got a taste of his medicine. :D
 
S

sennoc

Guest
meg0529 said:
Rafa is ALWAYS working to improve, it's why he's come so far.
Click to expand...

The most funny part of Nadal's legend.

Average serves since years, pathetic slices since years, poor netplay since years, the same tactics over and over again on every kind of surface - but "he is ALWAYS working on improvements".

Yeah.
 
namelessone

namelessone

Legend
sennoc said:
The most funny part of Nadal's legend.

Average serves since years, pathetic slices since years, poor netplay since years, the same tactics over and over again on every kind of surface - but "he is ALWAYS working on improvements".

Yeah.
Click to expand...

Ha-ha. Thanks for the good laugh.

He took a child like serve and can hit in the 130's now.

He wouldn't come to the net two times all match and now has one of the best approaches on tour, not to mention having one of the best stop volleys, as said by some guy named McEnroe.

His slice was non existent. It's not a premium shot but it's one more shot in his arsenal.

Those "same tactics"(guess you don't notice how he stick to the baseline in WB not like in RG or how he chose to battered Murray in WTF with body serves at times or serving to andy's fh side to avoid the bh) won the guy 9 freaking slams on slow HC, clay, grass, fast HC and if it weren't for a impressive Federer, indoors too.

I wish I could be as limited.
 
Last edited:
N

nereis

Semi-Pro
The difference in gameplan is obvious as well as attitude. Federer has gone back to his roots. Big forehand hit deep and consistently and jabbing, frustrating with the backhand through angles and change of direction. The main difference between this match and AO2009 is the depth of the forehand. I have not seen Federer hitting so close to the lines since US2005 against Agassi.
 
PrinceMoron

PrinceMoron

Legend
To be honest with that 1st serve percentage and points won on serve, it is almost impossible to lose. How many points did Nadal win on Federer's 1st serve - 8%.

Doesn't seem so smart now, winning the toss and letting Federer serve first.

Nadal surprised? Well I certainly was when Federer dashed in to the net. Even the few volleys he missed, he was right on top of the net.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
TheNatural said:
Rafa still managed to win a set despite being tired and having an injured foot and he showed great sportsmanship by not making any excuse about it in the press conference - that's why he's the Edberg sportsmanship winner.

Federer clinches London title against tired Nadal

Federer frustrates tired Nadal to win 5th year-end ATP title

Federer overcomes mental obstacle to defeat tired Nadal
Click to expand...

greg rusedski is one bitter man ...

all those articles are just written by trolls/nadal fanatics like you ...besides we know the axiom of you trolls , whenever nadal loses , he is tired/injured.

you can keep believing that - all you are proving is nadal is a wuss !!!!!!!
 
jmverdugo

jmverdugo

Hall of Fame
I somehow agree with the OP but I actually think Nadal was a little tired but he has won tight matches against Fed being tired before (Australian Open?) so this shouldnt be an excuse. It is well known that Fed get nervous when playing against Rafa but what I really got from this match is that Nadal also get nervous when playing against Federer, normally he finds a way to overcome this but since Fed was playing so good and with different strategy, he cound't do it this time. JMO.
 
W

Wilander Fan

Hall of Fame
P_Agony said:
Rafa started moving a lot better in the 2nd set while Fed was the one looking slower and more sluggish. It happens when your confidence changes. Rafa saw an aggressive Federer in the 1st set, who barely missed any shots and just went for it and his strokes clicked perfectly. That puts doubt in your mind, and the result is poorer footwork. Because Rafa is Rafa, he managed to put it behind him in the 2nd set and just wait for his chance, which he got once Fed's 1st serve failed him a bit and he started to miss a little more.

Overall though, I thought the first 2 sets were pretty steady from both players. Nadal had one bad game in the 1st, Fed had one bad game in the 2nd, and in the 3rd Nadal just looked a bit lost and Fed got his game back and working.

That's something Fed must have worked on, because back in 2008 and 2009 Fed started to have these weird matches where he wins the 1st set and then disappears mentally. He lost those types of matches to Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, Simon, Berdych, Baggy, and even Roddick (yes, Roddick, back in 2008). What impressed me most about this WTF was Federer's mindset. He kept his cool in the matches and didn't let go of his gameplan.
Click to expand...

When I rewatched the matches the other day, Nadal did seem stunned early in the match when Federer took high backhands and hit clean winners. Still, Nadal continued to relentlessly attack the backhand until he was finally broken late in the first. He may have changed tactics sooner had the break come earlier but Nadal did change tactics in the second and abandoned his game plan and started hitting more to the forehand. The commentators made a big deal out of how Federer doesnt move as well on to the right but this is because Federer hovers on the left side of the court most of the time since this is where most people attack. Nadal was able to break early on a bad game by Federer and and Federer was caught leaning to the left a few times but Federer did adjust and balance his positioning, Nadal basically had no game plan after this and his game just collapsed.
 
Bartelby

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
This means of course that Federer has been assiduously practicising hitting aggressive backhands, especially high ones - this is a good sign.


Wilander Fan said:
When I rewatched the matches the other day, Nadal did seem stunned early in the match when Federer took high backhands and hit clean winners. Still, Nadal continued to relentlessly attack the backhand until he was finally broken late in the first. He may have changed tactics sooner had the break come earlier but Nadal did change tactics in the second and abandoned his game plan and started hitting more to the forehand. The commentators made a big deal out of how Federer doesnt move as well on to the right but this is because Federer hovers on the left side of the court most of the time since this is where most people attack. Nadal was able to break early on a bad game by Federer and and Federer was caught leaning to the left a few times but Federer did adjust and balance his positioning, Nadal basically had no game plan after this and his game just collapsed.
Click to expand...
 
R

rommil

Legend
Yes he was confused, after knowing that his bread and butter plan is not working, what is he going to do? No alternative plan. Then he got tired of being confused..........that was the look we kept seeing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

OddJack
Djoker: Nadal was Confused
Replies
40
Views
3K
Sentinel
Sentinel
mike danny
federer-nadal indian wells 2012
Replies
3
Views
741
underground
underground
lelopez
Anyone else tired of hearing about the racquet change during every Fed match?
Replies
14
Views
617
Backspin1183
Backspin1183
P
Nadal the Ultimate Realist & Pessimist?
Replies
0
Views
10K
Postpre
P
W
The REVENANT REDUX-Roger Barely Survives PAIRE ATTACK
Replies
1
Views
226
Bartelby
Bartelby
Top