spacediver
Hall of Fame
there are better ways of getting information. Your post came across as aggressive, rude, and intentionally provocative.
Roger Federer and Modern Technique
- Thread starter JohnYandell
- Start date
John went out of his way to put up the vid, and his site is meant to help people with the largest archive of clips. While it's true we learn by watching, we must put into practice the video taping of our selves to really learn, and he also put up a tutorial on his site in the last issue of how to do that yourself, on the same screen, side by side, with quicktime pro, that he wrote himself. I believe the fastest progress can be made, that way.
This was a pretty good article. I liked his analysis - I think its very accurate.
The question is what do we as rec players do with this information?
Yandell makes a big point that Roger gets great extension (and thus he swings through the ball). And that Roger has very early prep. He also swings on a fairly flat 'plane.' All of these things are true - and very good things for rec players to work on.
But.. Roger also has a TON of what I would call 'wrist action' on his shots. I feel (and I don't know if Yandell can capture this analysis) that Roger is "turning his hand over" faster then most other pros. This is what Will calls the 'door knob" action.
This is very hard to do (and leads to shanks probably) for regular players. I think most rec players compensate by instead opting for higher swing angles which add topspin without so much door knob action.
As a rec player it seems that you can hit a decent forehand without really any wrist action at all.. But you would have a different finish.
So the question is what do we take away from this as a rec player. Do we try to incorporate Roger's direct through the ball swing without of wrist action. Or do we instead say - let's not even try that - I am just going to add more angle to my swing instead..
The question is what do we as rec players do with this information?
Yandell makes a big point that Roger gets great extension (and thus he swings through the ball). And that Roger has very early prep. He also swings on a fairly flat 'plane.' All of these things are true - and very good things for rec players to work on.
But.. Roger also has a TON of what I would call 'wrist action' on his shots. I feel (and I don't know if Yandell can capture this analysis) that Roger is "turning his hand over" faster then most other pros. This is what Will calls the 'door knob" action.
This is very hard to do (and leads to shanks probably) for regular players. I think most rec players compensate by instead opting for higher swing angles which add topspin without so much door knob action.
As a rec player it seems that you can hit a decent forehand without really any wrist action at all.. But you would have a different finish.
So the question is what do we take away from this as a rec player. Do we try to incorporate Roger's direct through the ball swing without of wrist action. Or do we instead say - let's not even try that - I am just going to add more angle to my swing instead..
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
thanks.
its the tyranny of the majority and the role of critical thinking.
back to the forehand
http://www.tennisteacher.com/t-ennis101basic.htm
(take out the - in tennis)
under lesson 1
"dont hit , push it out"
i think that addresses the push/pull debate and swing across/hit through in 5 words
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spacediver
Hall of Fame
why is that website url banned here?
spacediver
Hall of Fame
and what exactly does "don't hit - push it out" mean? I watched that video, and it looks like a lot of handwaving semantics to me. Much better to have precise descriptions that clearly dilineate and disambiguate no?
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
its like a bowling motion. you dont want to slap at the ball.
hence, the SW grip and the counter-balancing with the left leg.
you know when you are running, when u push off the left foot, you bring your right arm forward.
i only brought this up becuase the mtm video seems consistent with my ideology. sorry to have butted-in. i admit i have only read a few posts.
when balla asked john about swing across or through, he reallly didnt offer much of an answer. the typical , look at the extension at so and so secs. that brings nothing to the table, imo. and balla response was further sucking up.
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pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
wisdom can always be conveyed in an intuitive manner
even the most complicated scientific research
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JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
The problem with pushing out a lot of free information on youTube is that you are assigning a value to your work. Zero.
No matter what it cost you to film, travel, edit, analyze, present, post etc, you are creating a wide expectation that since it is free, it should be free and why pay ever for what should be free?
We release a few clips and articles here and there. But basically I believe that what we have done is at a much higher level--in terms of the filming technology, the depth of multiple film archives, and the level of analysis from over 50 of the best people in tennis.
I believe there is a value there and so do our paid subcribers. So do the major national coaching organizations around the world that we have relationships with.
It's not about page views or page rank. It's about the value of a product in the mind of the user.
No matter what it cost you to film, travel, edit, analyze, present, post etc, you are creating a wide expectation that since it is free, it should be free and why pay ever for what should be free?
We release a few clips and articles here and there. But basically I believe that what we have done is at a much higher level--in terms of the filming technology, the depth of multiple film archives, and the level of analysis from over 50 of the best people in tennis.
I believe there is a value there and so do our paid subcribers. So do the major national coaching organizations around the world that we have relationships with.
It's not about page views or page rank. It's about the value of a product in the mind of the user.
Similar to find the ball, track the ball, massage the ball, focus on the hands, etc - nothing.
Just make you feel you are learning some new secrets. Like those magnetic bracelets. You are told that wearing them make you healthier, wiser, richer etc - and if you wear them, you may end up thinking that is true. It may even help you by making you feel good. Whatever.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
And back to tennis...on the forehand question Guy you nailed it.
On the site I make a fundamental distinction between understanding what the pros actually do and applying it. It's a complex process of indentifying the elements and then determining who should use which when. But fundamentally if we don't do the painstaking research we end up with claims and teaching methodologies that make misleading, incomplete or false statements.
So you are correct about the preparation and extension as the core with Roger that applies across the levels. The reason I like his grip structure so much is that it is ideal for the ball heights most club players face--and swinging through the ball with conservative grips requires far less hand and arm rotation, open stance, and radical torso rotation in executing basic drives or even the variations.
Having said that, you now experiment with open stance when the ball is high, heavy and fast. You do the same with increased wiper.
Or using the wiper more when the ball is low and/or short or when you want to hit shorter angles and dip it on a pass.
I plan to eventually put together another giant overview on this--but I am still deep in the process of filming and analyzing fundamental components--and now working with Brian to use 3D to take that up even more levels. There's even more to come--whole new ways of looking at the meaning of strokes.
Exciting and fun work.
On the site I make a fundamental distinction between understanding what the pros actually do and applying it. It's a complex process of indentifying the elements and then determining who should use which when. But fundamentally if we don't do the painstaking research we end up with claims and teaching methodologies that make misleading, incomplete or false statements.
So you are correct about the preparation and extension as the core with Roger that applies across the levels. The reason I like his grip structure so much is that it is ideal for the ball heights most club players face--and swinging through the ball with conservative grips requires far less hand and arm rotation, open stance, and radical torso rotation in executing basic drives or even the variations.
Having said that, you now experiment with open stance when the ball is high, heavy and fast. You do the same with increased wiper.
Or using the wiper more when the ball is low and/or short or when you want to hit shorter angles and dip it on a pass.
I plan to eventually put together another giant overview on this--but I am still deep in the process of filming and analyzing fundamental components--and now working with Brian to use 3D to take that up even more levels. There's even more to come--whole new ways of looking at the meaning of strokes.
Exciting and fun work.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Suresh, I may post the shot of me drinking martinis with DRod in Indian Wells--people at the table said it is the happiest I have ever looked in a photo...
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
i beg to differ
Why wait? Just post it.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
its been 7 years of filming.
the first generation of SW grips players have retired.
what exactly are the fundamentals?
please dont tell me to sign up.
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Are you saying push it out is used to not make players slap at the ball? Again, it is kind of obvious. If you are doing the right preparation, hit, and finish, you won't slap at the ball. And the higher the level, the more fluid the stroke. It is not something new, at least to me, except maybe at a very low level, say 2.5. I don't see any juniors slapping at the ball, so who told them "push it out"?
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
That's not a one post answer. But if you go back and read what I wrote about the Federer clip in this thread you will get a good idea on the forehand.
Suresh, got dig the photo out of my cell phone but I see there is interest so I shall comply.
Suresh, got dig the photo out of my cell phone but I see there is interest so I shall comply.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
come on john. give us some wisdom.
the commonalities. the core fundamentals.
i remember reading your common forehand takeback commontalties back when guga an hewitt were dominating. again, there were no conclusions.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
most 4.5 5.0 tourney level players in my area still "hit" the ball
the more power they want to generate the more they try to "hit"
i think even balla, at times, tends to swipe across the ball a little more than he intends to.
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pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
it difficult to feel the proper release if u are using the wrong grip.
thats the gist of my argument with spacediver
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
think about it
why are there so many pushers?
cause the establishment cant seem to teach proper stroke mechanics.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
PW,
Seriously it's all in this thread. Skip the fighting and just read the explanations and look at the clip.
Seriously it's all in this thread. Skip the fighting and just read the explanations and look at the clip.
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
By popular request, or at least request of Suresh, DRod having a Martini at Sullivan's Steak House near Indian Wells with yours truly and the Tennisplayer team.
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/drod/
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/drod/
Damn, that's a good pic of you John! Wow! Drinking Mojitos next to Danielle, I'd look happy too.... Too many guys sniffing around her. Her boyfriend is an actor, not well known, but I think she and I would make a good couple. Dotzenrod, if you are listening, use your legs more on your shots, and put the weight into the shots more, aggressively. More dynamic attack.
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pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
as the saying goes, fool me once shame on you ............
