No more Pacific natural gut
- Thread starter Steve Huff
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diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
Were you able to estimate the location of the break? Was it at the shoulder of one of the turn-arounds in the grommet strip? The real question is if it's outside of the frame's inside edge. I would imagine this is the case, if the strip was new. If so, seems like Pacific isn't holding up well on sharp turns... I have some Classic gut sitting in my bin, it's been around for a long while, though, maybe i'm safe from these supposed bad batches...
vsbabolat
G.O.A.T.
All was at top of the head. It happened in two different type of frames. Prestige Mid and MP. Twice in both sticks
diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
Neither of which are very easy to add power pads to...
Edit: To clarify, all was pacific brand? This thread isn't boosting my confidence...
VS is a beast if strung properly. It shouldn't just break if kept in normal conditions.
Or you can tube those tight turns. The inside of the tube gotta be smoother than the grommets. That's how I string up a set of 18 gauge Bow Brand gut in my friend's frame at 62 lb.
I'd use Pacific for my own frame but won't use it on my customers' racket. 95% of the time it holds up fine even at 64 lb for 17 gauge Pacific Classic. However, I found that they DO break on the grommets easier on certain rackets with sharp turn grommets... Some bad experience include Wilson 6.1 team 18x20, Babolat Pure Storm... etc. I just don't want to shell out $30 when the cost of a string job is only $15.
I have never broke any set of Volkl Icon tho. Some people say that it is Klip Legend but it is very different when you string and hit with it. It's also VERY consistent in gauge.
I'd use Pacific for my own frame but won't use it on my customers' racket. 95% of the time it holds up fine even at 64 lb for 17 gauge Pacific Classic. However, I found that they DO break on the grommets easier on certain rackets with sharp turn grommets... Some bad experience include Wilson 6.1 team 18x20, Babolat Pure Storm... etc. I just don't want to shell out $30 when the cost of a string job is only $15.
I have never broke any set of Volkl Icon tho. Some people say that it is Klip Legend but it is very different when you string and hit with it. It's also VERY consistent in gauge.
Neither of which are very easy to add power pads to...
Edit: To clarify, all was pacific brand? This thread isn't boosting my confidence...
These do nothing. I have tested them in the summer and they're just as hot (probe thermometer) as the other 3 compartments. That said, they do provide a nicer environment than blazing sunlight.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
These do nothing. I have tested them in the summer and they're just as hot (probe thermometer) as the other 3 compartments. That said, they do provide a nicer environment than blazing sunlight.
Thanks and good to know lol! I might put a hydrometer in the humidity protection one as well then
Anyhow, what you are saying is enforced by the fact that I didn't have any more racquets snapping after keeping the tennis bag in a locker at the club and not transporting it at all in the trunk of my car during Canadian winter
diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
My point was that the frames in question are Prestiges, not the easiest to add power pads (or tubing) to
vsbabolat
G.O.A.T.
Neither of which are very easy to add power pads to...
Edit: To clarify, all was pacific brand? This thread isn't boosting my confidence...
Yes, all was Pacific Prime 16G. 4 racquets in total. All broke at the top of the frame.
I'm playing Wilson Natural gut the original VS Gut.
JT_2eighty
Hall of Fame
I guess I've been lucky.
ToughGut in 16L and 17 gauge; many times strung with my X2 dropweight, and very durable on the court and in the bag; even a few times accidentally left in the trunk both in hot summer and cold winter.
ToughGut in 16L and 17 gauge; many times strung with my X2 dropweight, and very durable on the court and in the bag; even a few times accidentally left in the trunk both in hot summer and cold winter.
My point was that the frames in question are Prestiges, not the easiest to add power pads (or tubing) to
Lol you are right. Forget about tubing with the cap grommets!!
McLovin
Legend
Resurrecting this thread because I got an e-mail from a customer last night. I had strung up his brand new PK Pro 7G last week w/ Pacific Classic 16L mains, poly crosses. He hit w/ it one day fine, then yesterday popped the string when hitting against a ball machine. He's ~ a 3.5 - 4.0, and doesn't hit with excessive topspin. I haven't seen the racquet yet (he said it broke near a grommet), but I immediately thought of this thread when reading the e-mail.
I told him I'd just charge him for the string on the restring, and that if it happens again I'd contact Pacific. I hope this isn't a QC thing, because Classic is my favorite gut right now.
diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
If I was a customer, this would already be on the unacceptable side to me (which is the main issue with gut). Spending ~$30 on a set of string only to have it break with a labor refund sucks for all parties involved, even though I'm sure it wasn't your fault (unless it broke on a tie off). I'd recommend the customer contact Pacific regardless! Also point them to this thread so they see it's not an isolated incident.
McLovin
Legend
I agree...with the exception of a mishit. I've seen thick poly's shear from a violent mishit. Unfortunately, unless there is video from the break, there's no real way to tell.
Unless you are American Express, you can't offer a 60 day theft/accidental damage warranty on string jobs. So, the next best thing is to offer a discount. Sadly, most shops wouldn't even do that.
Unless you are American Express, you can't offer a 60 day theft/accidental damage warranty on string jobs. So, the next best thing is to offer a discount. Sadly, most shops wouldn't even do that.
diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
No worries, I agree with your assessment/actions, it just sucks for people buying really expensive string. It's the nature of the game, though, if/when people bring their own string to you. There's no way you CAN guarantee string when you don't know the source
tennisinoc
Semi-Pro
I am considering purchasing another set of Pacific Classic to see if it was just a bad set I got. My experience with Gut is that the cheaper it is in price, the less durability or prone to premature breakage increases. For example, I had a 1/2 set of left over Mamba Supra Gut (this is suppose to be their premium string) laying around and decided to try stringing it up at 52 lbs. And just like the other 1/2 set before, it prematurely broke as I was applying tension to the 4th main. It just snapped like a weak piece of thread. Never again with ECONO gut.
UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
If it popped at a grommet, consider using power pads. It's a good precaution for all gut strings. Making and installing them also take extra time, so charge accordingly.
But you're better off giving informed consent before taking the job. He should be aware that there's a chance it'll pop for no reason at all, even if you did everything right. It's a property of the material, and you can't take on the responsibility. The consumer has to accept the risk for choosing gut.
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UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
I've been using Tough Gut for the last two years. Finally decided to try Pacific Prime....holy mother of god. It's a serious game improvement string. Added some serious zing to my serves. My 1hbh noticeably jumps off the court now, and we all know how hard it is to generate topspin on 1hbh's.
That's so NOT going to fly in where I live, unless the customer is bringing his/her own string, else you are selling BOTH the string and the service, and therefore responsible for both.
If I go to the local pro shop and drop 60-75 for gut and labor,(not cheap but still reasonable) then it pops in my bag 2 days later, I will bring it back and get the same string job free, no question asked.
No worries, I agree with your assessment/actions, it just sucks for people buying really expensive string. It's the nature of the game, though, if/when people bring their own string to you. There's no way you CAN guarantee string when you don't know the source
IF the customer did bring his own string, then yes, the customer is responsible to sort it out/complain to pacific, other wise, see my comment above.
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UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
It won't fly anywhere. Customers in all countries and states love to blame others. When problems arise, they point fingers. No legitimate reason is good enough. They must get a free string.
Even Sampras' strings snap in the bag overnight. It's gut. It happens.
McLovin
Legend
Agreed.
Well, I restrung his frame and almost two weeks later, no breakage. I'm guessing it was a mishit or a burr in the grommet, seeing as how I used the other half of the pack the 2nd time around.
JT_2eighty
Hall of Fame
Prime is quite awesome, I agree. I've been using tough for 2-3 years as my main string, in many hybrids with all sorts of crosses. I do have one of my sticks with full Prime, and even with the added power, the control is amazing.
I put in about 80 string savers in the sweetspot and beyond to make sure it takes as long as possible to break. The added string savers did not detract from the feel at all, in fact, helped to add some overall stringbed stiffness and control is even better with amazing pocketing.
While Wilson gut is notably the closest or perhaps the exact string as "pre-BT7" VS, Pac Prime is a close second to those wanting something with the 'classic VS feel & comfort'. I also think as you move up the ladder with Pacific's products, the QC is better too, so people breaking gut in the bag or during stringing *should* experience less of that with Prime.
You don't get it do you? It's not just customer, it's smart business, if you don't want take any risk, don't get into business, get a job where the owner take the risk for you.
A legitimate reason would be the customer mishit or got it wet.
When the problem is the product/service itself, there cannot be a legitimate reason. Not taking responsibility for product and service they sell is just ****ty business.
Then you should have a sign says, "The natural gut string being strung here may simply break for no reason and we are not responsible for it." Else, it's still your problem.
BTW in Sampras's case, I think for majority of his career, he wanted them strung way above recommended tension, no one else is to blame.
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UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
Charging $30 to string gut, just to restring a $43 string for free is barely smart business. It's stringing twice at a loss. The smartest thing you can do is to not string gut. That's, in fact, what many stringers do.
Reminds me of the incidence where a customer complained the string snapped in the bag, and the string restrung for free. His hitting partner, however, was compelled morally to inform the stringer his friend actually snapped it hitting a rock over the fence.
In Sampras' case, he strung it at 70lbs. These strings are rated to withstand ultra-high tensions, which goes up to 75lbs.
As far as the sign goes, that's actually what should be done, except without a sign. Do it verbally, via informed consent, like I said before.
diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
I think you're making too many concessions in your black and white strategy here
My policy is no guarantee on ANY string not supplied by me, and gut is evaluated on a case by case basis if it was supplied by me with the caveat above. I'm happy to re-do labor free, though, as it's no risk/damage out of my pocket if the string is faulty (I assume here that I'm not/can do no wrong when it comes to the labor itself :twisted. Agree, unless you're a megastore that can write losses off at the end of a tax year.
You are really bad at accounting, there are so many cases(most of them) that string won't break and they pocket that $25(VS is $50 here)+profit on string(they get it less than $50), which is not bad at all.
I do agree that you need to carry ONLY the brand you can trust, or not at all, else it's your own problem.
I also agree with informed consent, which is just fine by me, but this does not seems to be the case here, which is why I made the comment.
Also, I am fairly sure you got it the other way around 75# is what Pete ask the string to strung at, not the rating.
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I think you're making too many concessions in your black and white strategy here
Sorry but you point? Like I said, customer's string = customer's problem.
and gut is evaluated on a case by case basis if it was supplied by me with the caveat above. I'm happy to re-do labor free, though, as it's no risk/damage out of my pocket if the string is faulty (I assume here that I'm not/can do no wrong when it comes to the labor itself :twisted
If it's supplied by you though, then simply redo labor won't cut it.
Agree, unless you're a megastore that can write losses off at the end of a tax year.
LOL at last one, you run a business to make money and can't take loss due to your fault(not string right or did not buy the quality string(part you, part supplier)) but your customer can?
UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
The point is that gut will sometimes break due to no fault of anyone. That's the risk you take for using gut.
No, it's not. It's fault of either the manufacturer or the stringer or maybe the distributor(got it damaged during shipping), but not the customer, who's only decision is give you money to have his/her frame strung.
If you believe customer should bear the risk, then a rational customer will quickly correct his "fault" by never do business with you ever again, since he/she only made that one decision and that's the only thing he/she can change.
McLovin
Legend
I think you guys are simplifying the argument. There are many factors that go into determining what to do, and no two situations are identical.
Was the racquet used at all? Did the breakage occur before, during or after hitting? How many times did they hit with it before it broke? What were the weather conditions? Court conditions? Did they store the frame in their car? Are they a 'regular' customer? What condition is the frame in? Was it their choice to use gut, or did the stringer recommend it? Was this the first time it happened?
In some cases the stringer may not know the true answers, but will have to make their best judgement based on their knowledge of the customer. Sometimes it is worth it to lose a little $ to ensure the customer is happy, others it is not.
Bottom line: It's not a black & white situation.
Was the racquet used at all? Did the breakage occur before, during or after hitting? How many times did they hit with it before it broke? What were the weather conditions? Court conditions? Did they store the frame in their car? Are they a 'regular' customer? What condition is the frame in? Was it their choice to use gut, or did the stringer recommend it? Was this the first time it happened?
In some cases the stringer may not know the true answers, but will have to make their best judgement based on their knowledge of the customer. Sometimes it is worth it to lose a little $ to ensure the customer is happy, others it is not.
Bottom line: It's not a black & white situation.
insiderman
Semi-Pro
Sooo... while some insightful comments here, (and plenty of them!) the question if evident here to those with 'troubles'... has anyone, instead of '*****ing' here, taken the time to actually send back to TW or '?' purchased, the suspect string for evaluation / replacement!? Personally I once did have a 'bad' (suspect) set of gut that broke prematurely, so I cut it out, sent it back to where purchased, and after having it evaluated by the respective Mfg,... I did receive a replacement...
Just sayin'...
Just sayin'...
JT_2eighty
Hall of Fame
Are we talking about early breakage or any breakage?
JT_2eighty
Hall of Fame
Agree with this.
diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
I'm not sure who it is you're arguing with, but you and I are saying the exact same thing. If you need, look at my posting history, my stance is exactly what you're agreeing with. The customer him/herself is not solely responsible, but it is not MY job as the labor provider to deal with the manufacturer if I didn't supply the string. The customer can deal with the people they purchased the string from, or the manufacturer. It ain't my problem if I didn't supply the string.
If I did supply the string, I can deal with the RMA process. We're fully in agreement, here.
I think you guys are talking about completely different scenarios. If the string breaks within a hitting session or two, it is never 100% clear who is at fault without an inspection. If the stringer was not at fault (shear breakage, equipment damage [although, to be fair, the stringer should have inspected], etc), then there's no reason for the stringer to comp every set of string they install. That's simply silly. IF <-- the string was faulty, the stringer can deal with an RMA.
I agree, and this is why I put a winky face with my "black and white" comment. It's not -- and it shouldn't be made into one. There are some pretty straight forward approaches and processes we should all be able to agree upon, though.
I agree with everything you said here, but that's not my point. I was not the one making B&W.
If you are my stringer, there would not be any problem, string + labor = you deal with faulty string. Labor only = I deal with it.
I just don't agree with some people's idea that customer should bear all the risk when it's labor + string. With a lousy reason no less.
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Early off course, it's easy to tell, the string bed should show next to no sign of wear other than the breakage. Otherwise, it's up to the stringer to decide what he wants to do, but is no obligated.
I feel it's morally wrong (and illegal in many place) to refuse a refund/free replacement, if the string simply break in the bag before it's been played. Not so clear about US, but retailers in most provinces of Canada are legally required to refund/replace/repair(can't be done with a string) the defective products so consumer don't have to deal with manufacturer.
UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
Honestly, I really DONT want this customer to do business with me again. I'd want the synthetics market anyway, if I'm going to lose time and money on gut.
Gut's an ultra low durability string. You know that before you buy.
UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
That's why sports equipment cost 2x that of the USA in Canada. I've been to sports shops in Canada. Tennis racquets were $400 each. With that kind of markup, yea give them a free string here and there.
Funny, I was in US for 7 years for college and work, but I never met anyone as ignorant as you are...
Sorry but new release frame are $199 here, we might get less sales, but $400 frame? Where? Do you just read about things are more expansive in Canada and make up a number?
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UCSF2012
Hall of Fame
See, your arguments are so incredibly weak. On the basis of so little, you conclude so much. You overextend. No one here believes you.
As far as racquets costing $400 in Canada, I just read the number off the sticker. That makes me "ignorant," I'm sure.
How are things more "expansive" in Canada? Does that mean things are more spread out? (You speak like a minority still learning the language. You don't know when to use "the," and you don't know when to use the plural form. Christ. But of course, that doesn't make you ignorant. That just makes you stupid. There's a subtle difference between ignorance and stupidity.).
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diredesire
Adjunct Moderator
I'm not sure it was necessary to get into the insults, man. It's not a big deal if you don't agree at the end of the day. This isn't a right/wrong answer type of question, so lets all chill out.
Also -- gut isn't a "low durability string." Compared to poly, sure, but I'd say gut is comparable to (if not multiple times more durable than) almost all synthetics, especially multifilaments and other "gut replacement" strings.
LOL, now you are butt hurt, sorry I did not spell check as u aren't worth the time.
Where? Which sticker? The biggest sports retailer sell at 199, both online and in store, sorry your made up crap got called out.
