anyone tried the 11 to 5 "Rafter kicker"?

wihamilton · Apr 21, 2013

Rozroz said:
thanks again for your video Will. i replied you on the video page but somehow cannot find my reply
i was interested in what you'd say.

You're welcome dude glad you liked the video. If you can remember your question post it here and I'll respond. I'm trying to get to all the questions people are leaving on the video but there are currently 1,176 comments so it's hard to keep up! Good problem to have obviously ;-)

Raul_SJ · Apr 21, 2013

wihamilton said:
That's awesome thanks for sharing!

Re: height, you don't have to be tall to make this work. I'm 5'8" and have no problem using all the swing directions Pat talked about.

- Will

Will,

Can you clarify on the "11 to 5" swing vs the conventional "8 to 2" swing that I believe FYB and every coach teaches.

I know you commented in the video that it was just a feeling one should get.

But I have never heard a coach describe it this way for a topspin serve -- it has always been "8 to 2".

wihamilton · Apr 21, 2013

Raul_SJ said:
Will,

Can you clarify on the "11 to 5" swing vs the conventional "8 to 2" swing that I believe FYB and every coach teaches.

I know you commented in the video that it was just a feeling one should get.

But I have never heard a coach describe it this way for a topspin serve -- it has always been "8 to 2".

Sure, but what specifically do you want me to clear up? 11 - 5 is going to produce a different spin than 8 - 2. Pat is constantly mixing things up to keep the returner off balance.

sureshs · Apr 21, 2013

tennis_balla said:
arche, what I find curious is how sureshs is in EVERY thread pretty much on the Tennis Tips forum, and not just 1 or 2 posts but the main guy driving it along. So you start wondering, do I really wanna post something and have sureshs dissect and analyze what I wrote with his high intellect or do I wanna remain a sane person and just lurk?

That is not true. Among most of the active threads now, I have zero/marginal role. You can check for yourself.

sureshs · Apr 21, 2013

Will Hamilton has spoken. 11 to 5 is a valid shot. It is not something Rafter made up.

Ash is just gonna have to deal with it.

Rozroz · Apr 21, 2013

wihamilton said:
You're welcome dude glad you liked the video. If you can remember your question post it here and I'll respond. I'm trying to get to all the questions people are leaving on the video but there are currently 1,176 comments so it's hard to keep up! Good problem to have obviously ;-)

oh, of course, thanks!
as i understand, most of the preparations are the same as a flat serve, but then you make the adjustments for the 11-4 motion.
so, while i did manage to get the feel of it, and even get the spin to differ effectively, my main problem ATM is how to add the pace and power to this.
the ball spins well but right now it will land way before the fence.
not that my regular kick serve reach the fence, but still i wonder where do i start to address the pace? or it's just something that adds up as i get used to it? and what about the snap?

arche3 · Apr 21, 2013

tennis_balla said:
arche, what I find curious is how sureshs is in EVERY thread pretty much on the Tennis Tips forum, and not just 1 or 2 posts but the main guy driving it along. So you start wondering, do I really wanna post something and have sureshs dissect and analyze what I wrote with his high intellect or do I wanna remain a sane person and just lurk?

Case in point. Ash posts a reply. He is ridiculed by rec expert.
Rafter talks only about feel. Rec expert uses this to prove his physics mumbo jumbo of first discovery.
Its just so absurd. Drives real discussion away and discourages input from qualified coaches.

sureshs · Apr 21, 2013

arche3 said:
Case in point. Ash posts a reply. He is ridiculed by rec expert.

Certainly not. See post #3. Ash is clearly implying that 11 to 5 is ridiculous - it is not even a reply providing any explanation. Now we have confirmation from the maker of the video also.

maggmaster · Apr 21, 2013

Personally I am going to listen to the coaches, the ones with credentials. The rest of these guys are fun but I don't rust their advice as far as I can throw it. Personally, I coach clinics and have no credentials but I do have a personal training cert and I played college level sports so I do have a pretty good understanding of training blocks and cycles.

wihamilton · Apr 21, 2013

Rozroz said:
oh, of course, thanks!
as i understand, most of the preparations are the same as a flat serve, but then you make the adjustments for the 11-4 motion.
so, while i did manage to get the feel of it, and even get the spin to differ effectively, my main problem ATM is how to add the pace and power to this.
the ball spins well but right now it will land way before the fence.
not that my regular kick serve reach the fence, but still i wonder where do i start to address the pace? or it's just something that adds up as i get used to it? and what about the snap?

We just released the second video - the one on the toss. Not going to link it here because I'm not sure about TW's self-promotional policies and I don't want to run afoul of them, but go check it out.

The video starts w/ a cool slow motion clip of Pat serving. If you freeze it at about 20 seconds into the video you'll notice that Pat has pronated so that the side of the racket that made contact with the ball is now facing away from him.

It's only for a very brief moment so you might have to watch it a few times to see what I'm talking about, but hopefully you get the gist.

If you want more pace, copy that. In my experience that one simple tweak makes a big difference.

Rozroz · Apr 21, 2013

wihamilton said:
We just released the second video - the one on the toss. Not going to link it here because I'm not sure about TW's self-promotional policies and I don't want to run afoul of them, but go check it out.

The video starts w/ a cool slow motion clip of Pat serving. If you freeze it at about 20 seconds into the video you'll notice that Pat has pronated so that the side of the racket that made contact with the ball is now facing away from him.

It's only for a very brief moment so you might have to watch it a few times to see what I'm talking about, but hopefully you get the gist.

If you want more pace, copy that. In my experience that one simple tweak makes a big difference.

many thanks, will do!

arche3 · Apr 21, 2013

sureshs said:
Well, it wasn't you, so I will wait for him to post.

It is obvious to me this is trying to demean ash for posting his thoughts.
I don't see how this helps this thread.

thejackal · Apr 21, 2013

wihamilton said:
We just released the second video - the one on the toss. Not going to link it here because I'm not sure about TW's self-promotional policies and I don't want to run afoul of them, but go check it out.

The video starts w/ a cool slow motion clip of Pat serving. If you freeze it at about 20 seconds into the video you'll notice that Pat has pronated so that the side of the racket that made contact with the ball is now facing away from him.

It's only for a very brief moment so you might have to watch it a few times to see what I'm talking about, but hopefully you get the gist.

If you want more pace, copy that. In my experience that one simple tweak makes a big difference.

great videos. kudos for offering it for free!

one thing that really jumped out at me (pun intended) when watching the videos, is how great a teacher pat is. he seems really enthusiastic and open to discussion and his teaching style is just uncomplicated. I'm sure he is a great DC captain for australia, and I'd love to see him get into coaching in an even bigger capacity. what do you think, will?

arche3 · Apr 21, 2013

maggmaster said:
Personally I am going to listen to the coaches, the ones with credentials. The rest of these guys are fun but I don't rust their advice as far as I can throw it. Personally, I coach clinics and have no credentials but I do have a personal training cert and I played college level sports so I do have a pretty good understanding of training blocks and cycles.

Well this place if not careful will be the rec expert tennis physics academy if some posters get their way. No real coaches allowed.

wihamilton · Apr 21, 2013

thejackal said:
great videos. kudos for offering it for free!

one thing that really jumped out at me (pun intended) when watching the videos, is how great a teacher pat is. he seems really enthusiastic and open to discussion and his teaching style is just uncomplicated. I'm sure he is a great DC captain for australia, and I'd love to see him get into coaching in an even bigger capacity. what do you think, will?

Pat is the MAN and a great coach. We didn't talk about future coaching plans so I don't really know, but we can keep our fingers crossed because he'd make a big contribution!

Raul_SJ · Apr 21, 2013

wihamilton said:
Sure, but what specifically do you want me to clear up? 11 - 5 is going to produce a different spin than 8 - 2. Pat is constantly mixing things up to keep the returner off balance.

Okay, you are saying 11-5 and 8-2 are both ways of creating a topspin serve.

I have been swinging 8-2 to get the sort of serve shown in the video -- Rafter's 11-5 first serve kick.

I will have to try out the 11-5 and see if it works, but I don't think it will be possible to impart topspin on the ball with a 11-5 swing.

Also, Pat's 11-5 instruction seems to contract the FYB instructional video that teaches to brush up on the ball for a kick serve.

http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/serve/kick-serve/swing-direction/

On a kick serve, now what you’re trying to do is swing up and across the tennis ball. That means you have to swing in a different direction. By swinging up and across the back of the tennis ball, you’ll put spin on it. That will pull the ball into the service box and cause it to “bounce funny,” or kick to the side.

wihamilton · Apr 21, 2013

Raul_SJ said:
Okay, you are saying 11-5 and 8-2 are both ways of creating a topspin serve.[/COLOR]

No the spin won't be the same.

Re: the video on our website and the swing direction it recommends, Pat says this is a good starting point for players learning a kick serve. 11 - 5 is more advanced and is going to produce a slightly different spin and more pace.

psv255 · Apr 21, 2013

I have unintentionally applied this type of 11-5 spin to my serves when attempting to hit a slice serve out wide on the deuce side. It was funny to see the serve bouncing slightly up and to the right instead of the usual sliding farther away to the left, but it still had some good pace on it; it was by no means a high-kicking second serve.
This is probably the type of serve mentioned in the video.

P.S. Great videos, Will, really interesting to see Pat break it down in a feel-oriented way.

Cheetah · Apr 21, 2013

Hey Will,

Those videos are fantastic. Informative and entertaining.
Pat is one cool dude that's for sure.

Great work and good luck.

sureshs · Apr 21, 2013

Raul_SJ said:
Okay, you are saying 11-5 and 8-2 are both ways of creating a topspin serve.

I have been swinging 8-2 to get the sort of serve shown in the video -- Rafter's 11-5 first serve kick.

I will have to try out the 11-5 and see if it works, but I don't think it will be possible to impart topspin on the ball with a 11-5 swing.

Also, Pat's 11-5 instruction seems to contract the FYB instructional video that teaches to brush up on the ball for a kick serve.

http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/serve/kick-serve/swing-direction/

On a kick serve, now what you’re trying to do is swing up and across the tennis ball. That means you have to swing in a different direction. By swinging up and across the back of the tennis ball, you’ll put spin on it. That will pull the ball into the service box and cause it to “bounce funny,” or kick to the side.

As I mentioned before, the traditional meaning of kick serve is not what Pat is using here. In fact, Pat mentions both the cases.

sureshs · Apr 21, 2013

arche3 said:
Well this place if not careful will be the rec expert tennis physics academy if some posters get their way. No real coaches allowed.

As WiH pointed out in #65, Pat is the coach here, and he and I are in agreement. Apart from being a real coach, he is also a real player.

sureshs · Apr 21, 2013

arche3 said:
It is obvious to me this is trying to demean ash for posting his thoughts.
I don't see how this helps this thread.

Well, NONE of your posts in any thread are relevant to the thread, so you should look in the mirror first.

sureshs · Apr 21, 2013

Link to the second Pat video

http://www.patrafterserve.com/fe/46401-a-consistent-toss

arche3 · Apr 21, 2013

sureshs said:
As WiH pointed out in #65, Pat is the coach here, and he and I are in agreement. Apart from being a real coach, he is also a real player.

You are not in agreement. Fast from it. Your mistaken in your ideas.

arche3 · Apr 21, 2013

sureshs said:
Well, NONE of your posts in any thread are relevant to the thread, so you should look in the mirror first.

At the least when I post technique related posts I know what I am talking about. I do not confuse the issue with wrong technique. If I critique your technical posts as wrong that is a contribution. Its a discussion that tells others you are mistaken due to your at best 3.5 singles ranking. You do not play like rafter. You are not equal to him in insight.

I think what rafter says is he hits down on the ball in feel. He does not actually hit the ball down. I already posted this here to refute your claims. If he hit the ball down it would go into the net. You cannot use rafters "feel" based ideas to validate your "pseudo" science. If you want to prove the science you need to offer mathematical and physical scientific proof. Not just "because I say so".

So to clarify for you, you are wrong. Rafter does not hit the ball down on a "top spin" serve. He says it feels like it. This does not contradict rafter. It only refutes your claims people actually hit the ball down. You can't get top spin hitting down. Prove it to me.

You claim you discovered pros hit down on the kick serve. That is a term teaching pros have used in the past. It is not unique to you. You did not discover it. Its the same silly notion another site owner claiming they discovered the ball slowed down after the bounce. The bounce slow down is obvious. The fact that numerous pros have used the hit down clue on serve is obvious.

Prove your notion of the kick serve is actually hit down. I say it is not true.

The 11-5 kick serve or kick slice is hit up. The racket starts from the drop and it meets the ball on the way up as the ball drops. Then it carves and wraps from 11-5 on the follow through. This is my assertion.

HughJars · Apr 22, 2013

The most refreshing thing about Rafter and his coaching is that he is genuinely a top bloke, and doesn't feel the need to let everybody know how awesome he is.

Just sayin.....

Relinquis · Apr 22, 2013

Rafter is ace...

Tonyr1967 · Apr 22, 2013

Question for Will

wihamilton said:
That's awesome thanks for sharing!

Re: height, you don't have to be tall to make this work. I'm 5'8" and have no problem using all the swing directions Pat talked about.

- Will

Will - I've been racking my brains as to how someone short (I'm 5'7") could possibly hit 11-5. The only way that I can see this is possible is to hit the ball out in front and to aim higher that a normal.

Am I on the right track or am I missing something???

Thanks

Rozroz · Apr 22, 2013

Tonyr1967 said:
Will - I've been racking my brains as to how someone short (I'm 5'7") could possibly hit 11-5. The only way that I can see this is possible is to hit the ball out in front and to aim higher that a normal.

Am I on the right track or am I missing something???

Thanks

as talked above, i guess it's not really coming "from top" like only a tall fella could. it's more about the "feel" of 11-4.

Tonyr1967 · Apr 22, 2013

Thanks

10 char

sureshs · Apr 22, 2013

Tonyr1967 said:
Will - I've been racking my brains as to how someone short (I'm 5'7") could possibly hit 11-5. The only way that I can see this is possible is to hit the ball out in front and to aim higher that a normal.

Am I on the right track or am I missing something???

Thanks

Are you afraid that this will land the ball into the net?

That is another old myth starting from a diagram which someone once published where the ball trajectories are shown as straight lines. He proved using trigonometry that you have be 7 feet or something to hit down on the ball.

Now we know that many first serves from the pros (who are nowhere near that height) leave the strings slightly below the horizontal and the path is a parabola with a bulge around the net. That is how the ball stays in.

wihamilton · Apr 22, 2013

Tonyr1967 said:
Will - I've been racking my brains as to how someone short (I'm 5'7") could possibly hit 11-5. The only way that I can see this is possible is to hit the ball out in front and to aim higher that a normal.

Am I on the right track or am I missing something???

Thanks

Hi Tony. I'm 5'8" and it works just fine for me (in reverse - I'm a lefty!). Just keep in mind that 11 - 5 is what it should feel like. It's not a reflection of how the racket actually moves across the ball, nor is it really necessary to understand exactly what is happening as long as you get the result you want. It's like a black box ;-)

- Will

(Obviously if you're interested in the minutia you should dig deeper.)

Ash_Smith · Apr 22, 2013

arche3 said:
It is obvious to me this is trying to demean ash for posting his thoughts.
I don't see how this helps this thread.

Don't sweat it Arche - I just need to accept that Sureshs is a true visionary and that even though in my 25 years of playing and 15 years of coaching, having travelled the world working with ranked players and numerous world class coaches, none of them has ever even remotely shared a technical opinion with Sureshs, he shall be crowned master of all talk tennis. New posters and players must listen to him instead of the great advice of coaches like Balla, TCF, Trebs, JY, OW, 5263 and the countless others (you know, those who are actually out there doing the teaching).

sureshs · Apr 22, 2013

Ash_Smith said:
Don't sweat it Arche - I just need to accept that Sureshs is a true visionary and that even though in my 25 years of playing and 15 years of coaching, having travelled the world working with ranked players and numerous world class coaches, none of them has ever even remotely shared a technical opinion with Sureshs, he shall be crowned master of all talk tennis. New posters and players must listen to him instead of the great advice of coaches like Balla, TCF, Trebs, JY, OW, 5263 and the countless others (you know, those who are actually out there doing the teaching).

I noticed that you carefully omitted Pat Rafter, who agrees with me. I would rather that a world #1 agree with me.

tonygao · Apr 22, 2013

wihamilton said:
Hi Tony. I'm 5'8" and it works just fine for me (in reverse - I'm a lefty!). Just keep in mind that 11 - 5 is what it should feel like. It's not a reflection of how the racket actually moves across the ball, nor is it really necessary to understand exactly what is happening as long as you get the result you want. It's like a black box ;-)

- Will

(Obviously if you're interested in the minutia you should dig deeper.)

I think this can settle the dispute here. 11-4 is not hitting down, racket is still going up during the contact. my guess is it's actually 9-2,but you gotta try to swing 11-4 to get the 9-2 done nicely.

Ash_Smith · Apr 22, 2013

sureshs said:
I noticed that you carefully omitted Pat Rafter, who agrees with me. I would rather that a world #1 agree with me.

Yeah, the funny thing with that is that he doesn't agree with you! As Will and Pat both stated, the ball is not actually being hit down, it is merely the feeling one is looking for, the racquet head is still moving across or up or a combination there of.

sureshs · Apr 22, 2013

Ash_Smith said:
Yeah, the funny thing with that is that he doesn't agree with you! As Will and Pat both stated, the ball is not actually being hit down, it is merely the feeling one is looking for, the racquet head is still moving across or up or a combination there of.

Can you show me where Pat said this: "the ball is not actually being hit down"?

Don't point to "across" and "feel." Across can be up and it can be down.

Just point me to the place where Pat said "the ball is not actually being hit down."

Ash_Smith · Apr 22, 2013

better idea - you point to the place where he states it is?

sureshs · Apr 22, 2013

Ash_Smith said:
better idea - you point to the place where he states it is?

OK, so you lied.

I think we can stop here, because I have no interest in discussing this further with you.

Rozroz · Apr 22, 2013

no, please go on! where is the ball hit???

Ash_Smith · Apr 22, 2013

^^^please don't feed the troll Rozroz! Arche has already tried to explain that what Pat is describing is how it feels to him and the thought process he uses to generate the racquet path he is after. Even Will explains it about 9 posts up the page, but Sureshs is still stuck on it.

Relinquis · Apr 22, 2013

*sigh*...

have you guys actually tried the serve or are you content with arguing the pseudo-physics of it?

much rather hear about whether or not people find it useful, effective and how folks feel about returning such a ball.

my hitting partners occasionally say, "nice serve"... they're not the talkative types...

Ash_Smith · Apr 22, 2013

sure - as an image or swing-thought it can be a very effective concept. Ironically enough one of the "modern tennis methodology" serves is the "heavy serve" - which uses very similar teaching cues to Pat to achieve the results!

sureshs · Apr 22, 2013

Ash_Smith said:
^^^please don't feed the troll Rozroz! Arche has already tried to explain that what Pat is describing is how it feels to him and the thought process he uses to generate the racquet path he is after. Even Will explains it about 9 posts up the page, but Sureshs is still stuck on it.

C'mon, just confess that you lied. You did not even believe that the ball could be hit 11 to 5. You call people a troll because you have nothing to contribute in this forum except for some management bullcrap. When people who are not coaches say anything, you ego cannot take it since you have never played at an advanced level, and you think you have some monopoly over knowledge.

No one has a monopoly, and on the Internet, you get only the respect you deserve - it is not like real life when people would have agendas when interacting with you.

Please don't call someone a troll because you cannot understand what he is talking about. You are a liar as already proven, and no attempt at evasion or humor is going to change it.

arche3 · Apr 22, 2013

Suresh "rage quits" discussion because pretty much everyone including Will the fyb guru contradicts sureshs ideas. Suresh thinks pat rafter agrees but is unwilling to find the proof. After all the pseudo science physics used the argument is because "I said so". Its funny. I think a real valid scientific proof would do wonders suresh. You owe ttw such an analysis.

I just practiced serves for an hour. The 11-5 concept with hitting down thought process was something I already was exposed to as a kid. But it wasn't stated as 11-5. I was taught to brush the ball up and across and hit down on the kick serve so it moves left then bounce right. I suppose the clock face is 10-2? When I envisioned a 11-5 serve today with the same hit down cue I achieved as expected a flatter serve with slice along with some top spin. Its a nice serve to use as expected as it came from rafter.

Relinquis · Apr 22, 2013

i find it is useful as a body serve to an opponent who is moving into the court to attack my serve...

The unexpected spin post-bounce seems to confuse an already jammed up player who has to choose what side to move to in order to get out of the way from the shot...

It's a variation... instead of having three serves (flat, slice, kick) now you have an additional variation that you can use that is low risk of faulting.

I don't face many of these serves though... i wonder how they are to return.

tennis_balla · Apr 22, 2013

I believe sureshs has found a new victim to stalk. It used to be Oscar Wegner, now its your turn Ash. Congratulations, you've made it onto sureshs's troll hit list. Its an honour, be proud.

Godspeed Ash!

maggmaster · Apr 22, 2013

Please don't troll Ash away he is one of the few high performance coaches that contribute on here.

tennis_balla · Apr 22, 2013

I doubt Ash will leave because of a know it all troll

sureshs · Apr 22, 2013

Ash calls those who disagree with him a troll, and he makes up stuff that was not said by a former #1. No one is trolling him away.

anyone tried the 11 to 5 "Rafter kicker"?

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