Crafty old dudes! Anyone successfully transition from the go-to kicker to the aggressive slice?

[J011yroger]

i mean, would you draw aanother line for each of those types of serves..
i find a "pronated" hard slice serve, is hit at ~1p position, and is hit more flush with the ball
where as the "racquet curves around slice serve" is hit at ~3p position, and is hit more like a glancing shot
i understand the difference between the 2, but was wondering how would you categorize those 2 types of serves (they are different IMO), in your diagram.

to me, these are different (from a rec standpoint... perhaps at the 5.0+ level, there is no distinction, because the "curve around slice" would never be used since it's a sitter)
* topslice (higher clearance, dives down more)
* hard slice (more pace, with more side spin to help control, and give slightly more net clearance)
* curve around slice (more of a "beginner" serve... gets lots of sidespin, and movement, but tends to be slowish and sits up

thoughts?

What I'm saying is that you can hit the 3 o'clock glancing serve with the pronation finish and it will be better than the carve around one.

All high level serves swing left to right, but with the carve around you have to swing slightly right to left or the ball won't make it to the net.

Think about it like the mini tennis thread. The pronation power slice is like your normal baseline ground stroke, the carve around glancing slice is like 4.0 brushing mini tennis, the pronation glancing slice is like your high level full speed mini tennis stroke.

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

What I'm saying is that you can hit the 3 o'clock glancing serve with the pronation finish and it will be better than the carve around one.

All high level serves swing left to right, but with the carve around you have to swing slightly right to left or the ball won't make it to the net.

Think about it like the mini tennis thread. The pronation power slice is like your normal baseline ground stroke, the carve around glancing slice is like 4.0 brushing mini tennis, the pronation glancing slice is like your high level full speed mini tennis stroke.

J

yeah, conceptually i understand that... but feel-wise they are completely different to me...

 

[J011yroger]

yeah, conceptually i understand that... but feel-wise they are completely different to me...

You have to toss the ball into the court more for the pronation glancer.

Try it and just aim for less and less of the ball.

They are going to go all over the place until you start to figure it out.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

Imho kicker bounces high and could be called a topspin serve. Twist is the same but it bounces to a righties bh. Curves to the servers left in the air but bounces to the right.

What I hit ... and have been calling a 'kicker' goes online (no curve to the left) until bounce, and then kicks to right. Weak tea twist?

 

[Shroud]

What I hit ... and have been calling a 'kicker' goes online (no curve to the left) until bounce, and then kicks to right. Weak tea twist?

Sounds right.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

You have to toss the ball into the court more for the pronation glancer.

Try it and just aim for less and less of the ball.

They are going to go all over the place until you start to figure it out.

J

yes, i understand how to hit it, i'm just saying the diagram you have, IMO, doesn't help distinguish the difference between the two, to someone just learning...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Kick slice has higher net clearance, curves to the left in the air then kicks up high off the bounce.

You can hit it shorter in the box than a traditional slice but it doesn't keep going left after the bounce.

J

do you prefer the kick slice vs. a twist? or different tool for different situation?
for me, i can't consistently hit a kick-slice... but when i do it's awesome... looks like i hit a pebble.

 

[J011yroger]

do you prefer the kick slice vs. a twist? or different tool for different situation?
for me, i can't consistently hit a kick-slice... but when i do it's awesome... looks like i hit a pebble.

Kick slice to the deuce and twist to the ad.

J

 

[J011yroger]

yes, i understand how to hit it, i'm just saying the diagram you have, IMO, doesn't help distinguish the difference between the two, to someone just learning...

I don't advocate the carve around, it's a dead end to me. It's the spin serve equivalent of the frying pan grip flat serve.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don't advocate the carve around, it's a dead end to me. It's the spin serve equivalent of the frying pan grip flat serve.

J

I don't hit the carve around slice (hit the one from the top ... but does keep curving out wide in deuce side) ... but our #1 4.5 singles player in the state for 3-5 years ??? did. You could put a tennis can right in the corner of the deuce service box and he might hit it. He never missed it ... not that fast but you were returning from doubles alley or worse. I just stood with right foot just inside the doubles alley ... and gave him the T. He missed the T serve some.

 

[Shroud]

Looking at the back of the ball from the back fence.

Red = Topspin

Blue = Kick/twist

Purple = Kick slice

Gray = Topspin/slice

Black = Flat

J

Hmm. It seems impossible to get that kind of precise contact and path but i will try. Thanks

But how many cups of joe do i need to get the jittery swing denoted?

Fwiw a guy has been running around his bh to attack my twist. He sometimes rips winners from outside the court. I have a completely open court if his return isnt a winner so its not a high % play on his part. But it always makes the after match presser.

To combat this I have been hitting the twist to his fh changing direction right at contact. I think this ends up being the kick slice.

 

[Shroud]

I don't advocate the carve around, it's a dead end to me. It's the spin serve equivalent of the frying pan grip flat serve.

J

Wait, you mean the carve around is the future of serving? No wonder you are stuck at a 6.0 serve. Need to break some myths man.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Honestly, I have one compeitive match where my serve was used as an actual weapon to gain points or position. Pretty much anymore though, if I can put the ball in the general area - T, body, or wide - and I can give it a bit of umphhh, I can get a point or work into things.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Honestly, I have one compeitive match where my serve was used as an actual weapon to gain points or position. Pretty much anymore though, if I can put the ball in the general area - T, body, or wide - and I can give it a bit of umphhh, I can get a point or work into things.

Yeah ... I will give you two things more important than how much right my kicker jumped in s&v:

1) it was an anti-double fault serve
2) gave me the time for a couple extra steps coming in behind my serve.

This was the "crafty old dude" thread ... but broadening that to the "crafty rec dude" ... rec tennis ain't pro tennis. When Isner serves and volleys ... his pace is enough to be more "serve and cleanup in aisle 10" . Even with a big rec serve like @J011yroger ... you would have to chart/watch his s&v success behind big serves and cleanup (losing steps into the net didn't matter because of weak/no return) vs coming in behind a backed-off kicker. I have never seen one 4.5 or 5.0 singles match won with Isner style rec play (win rec matches by acefest). Several big servers that were a b*tch to break ... but you usually at least got to shank the ros.

 

[J011yroger]

Yeah ... I will give you two things more important than how much right my kicker jumped in s&v:

1) it was an anti-double fault serve
2) gave me the time for a couple extra steps coming in behind my serve.

This was the "crafty old dude" thread ... but broadening that to the "crafty rec dude" ... rec tennis ain't pro tennis. When Isner serves and volleys ... his pace is enough to be more "serve and cleanup in aisle 10" . Even with a big rec serve like @J011yroger ... you would have to chart/watch his s&v success behind big serves and cleanup (losing steps into the net didn't matter because of weak/no return) vs coming in behind a backed-off kicker. I have never seen one 4.5 or 5.0 singles match won with Isner style rec play (win rec matches by acefest). Several big servers that were a b*tch to break ... but you usually at least got to shank the ros.

Fwiw I S&V more behind my 2nd serve.

J

 

[ChaelAZ]

Fwiw I S&V more behind my 2nd serve.

Same. Basically just comes down to pace, and a floaty second gives me more steps to the net.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Fwiw I S&V more behind my 2nd serve.

J

You s&v behind your second serve pace ... or are you saying you only s&v on your 2nd serve?

 

[J011yroger]

You s&v behind your second serve pace ... or are you saying you only s&v on your 2nd serve?

More often on my 2nd serve than my first. Except in doubles, then it's equal.

J

 

[onehandbh]

Looking at the back of the ball from the back fence.

Red = Topspin

Blue = Kick/twist

Purple = Kick slice

Gray = Topspin/slice

Black = Flat

J

You forgot the soft pancake 2nd serve
which would be just a dot at the back of the ball, slighting towards the bottom.

 

[ByeByePoly]

You forgot the soft pancake 2nd serve
which would be just a dot at the back of the ball, slighting towards the bottom.

There are different versions of the pancake:

1) straight on
2) ball spins a little left
3) ball spins a little right
4) backspin (in theory)

Our #2 high school player (right handed) s&v behind #3 ... we called it "weasel spin". Thinking about it now ... seems unfair to weasels.

 

[treo]

Elena Dementieva made it all the way to the 2004 USO finals with a 64 mph sidewinder serve. I saw her in person during this period when she had the shoulder injury. It had tons of sidespin and lower ranked players had trouble with it.

 

[J011yroger]

There are different versions of the pancake:

1) straight on
2) ball spins a little left
3) ball spins a little right
4) backspin (in theory)

Our #2 high school player (right handed) s&v behind #3 ... we called it "weasel spin". Thinking about it now ... seems unfair to weasels.

#4 is a staple in ladies 4.0!

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

#4 is a staple in ladies 4.0!

J

Come to think about it ... I live with one of those servers. I was telling her I was helping a guy with his trophy position ... which led to a long futile attempt to explain what the trophy position was. Just when I thought she understood she said:

"the serve is just to get the point started" .

 

[Shroud]

Come to think about it ... I live with one of those servers. I was telling her I was helping a guy with his trophy position ... which led to a long futile attempt to explain what the trophy position was. Just when I thought she understood she said:

"the serve is just to get the point started" .

Man that is one of the saddest posts ever

 

[ByeByePoly]

Man that is one of the saddest posts ever

Not for me ... made me smile. Wife has no poker face ... foolish husband comments will be called out.

 

[BenC]

Once in a while TTW yields a nugget of corn from its steaming dung pile of "FEDR GOAT" and "false dawn" threads. I actually learned how to hit a proper slice from you guys - I'd been trying to do the "carve" slice before.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Once in a while TTW yields a nugget of corn from its steaming dung pile of "FEDR GOAT" and "false dawn" threads. I actually learned how to hit a proper slice from you guys - I'd been trying to do the "carve" slice before.

haha, awseome.
so what in particular helped you finally get it?

 

[J011yroger]

haha, awseome.
so what in particular helped you finally get it?

Obviously me.

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Obviously me.

J

obviously
but what *tip* in particular helped him...

 

[BenC]

This one in particular, where I realized the "carve around" was preventing me from pronating on contact since I had to finish right to left (I'm a righty). It was ok when it worked but it was hard to aim because of the sideways contact point on the ball, low net clearance, and opponents picked up on it a split second early due to the visual differences in swing path and speed.

What I'm saying is that you can hit the 3 o'clock glancing serve with the pronation finish and it will be better than the carve around one.

All high level serves swing left to right, but with the carve around you have to swing slightly right to left or the ball won't make it to the net.

Think about it like the mini tennis thread. The pronation power slice is like your normal baseline ground stroke, the carve around glancing slice is like 4.0 brushing mini tennis, the pronation glancing slice is like your high level full speed mini tennis stroke.

J

 

[Shroud]

Obviously me.

J

Come on J0lly you are not really part of TT. More like an addict who beat the addiction and stops by to remind himself how low he had sunk and that fortunately he doesnt really belong.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Come on J0lly you are not really part of TT. More like an addict who beat the addiction and stops by to remind himself how low he had sunk and that fortunately he doesnt really belong.

19,063 posts is a long visit

 

[Shroud]

19,063 posts is a long visit

J011y has always been an overachiever

 

[ByeByePoly]

Once in a while TTW yields a nugget of corn from its steaming dung pile of "FEDR GOAT" and "false dawn" threads. I actually learned how to hit a proper slice from you guys - I'd been trying to do the "carve" slice before.

I can beat that. I learned here there were two types, and after @nytennisaddict described them ... declared I hit the carve around. Looked at my serve on video ... and I hit the other one. No clue.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

This one in particular, where I realized the "carve around" was preventing me from pronating on contact since I had to finish right to left (I'm a righty). It was ok when it worked but it was hard to aim because of the sideways contact point on the ball, low net clearance, and opponents picked up on it a split second early due to the visual differences in swing path and speed.

I can beat that. I learned here there were two types, and after @nytennisaddict described them ... declared I hit the carve around. Looked at my serve on video ... and I hit the other one. No clue.

hehe, well jolly's serve challenge is what motivated me to really pursue improving my serve in earnest...

 

[ByeByePoly]

hehe, well jolly's serve challenge is what motivated me to really pursue improving my serve in earnest...

diminishing returns working on your serve after 50

 

[Deleted member 23235]

diminishing returns working on your serve after 50

********


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rogerroger917]

diminishing returns working on your serve after 50

Why?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Why?

rog ... that was one of those double entrees things

 

[J011yroger]

rog ... that was one of those double entrees things

Like the Applebee's 2 for $20?

J

 

[onehandbh]

********

Are you saying that against a slow kick serve you have to not rush and wait for it?

 

[onehandbh]

One of the craftiest old dudes I have I met and played with and against was a short old guy who hit all kinds of weird spins and serves. No kick serves, but he even hit this one serve that was like a high backhand overhead.

Some of the people in the club hated playing doubles with him.

 

[rogerroger917]

rog ... that was one of those double entrees things

I've not been paying attention really.

 

[onehandbh]

My kick serve is much slower than it used to be b/c I don't toss as far into the court anymore.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Are you saying that against a slow kick serve you have to not rush and wait for it?

Are you saying that against a slow kick serve you have to not rush and wait for it?

Are you saying that against a slow kick serve you have to not rush and wait for it?

lol, i didn't understand this all three times you wrote it

 

[ByeByePoly]

lol, i didn't understand this all three times you wrote it

I didn't understand your "********" , but I figured it's best I did not.

 

[onehandbh]

lol, i didn't understand this all three times you wrote it

Just removed the duplicates and replaced with quality content.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I didn't understand your "********" , but I figured it's best I did not.

hehe, i spelled out B-S.... ie. sounded like an excuse not to work on your serve, just because you're over 50.
i mean, if i'm playing in my 50 and 60.. i might not hit as hard or spin as much, but i can still see working on placement, different spins, etc...
or "working on my serve" might also mean, working on flexibility, strengthening, etc...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

My kick serve is much slower than it used to be b/c I don't toss as far into the court anymore.

yeah kicker is hard on the body... requires alot of legs (up and into the court), to be explosive, and effective.
slice is definitely easier... can get decent spin/pace with not as much legs...

 

[Shroud]

yeah kicker is hard on the body... requires alot of legs (up and into the court), to be explosive, and effective.
slice is definitely easier... can get decent spin/pace with not as much legs...

Crap. NOW you tell me! No wonder.

Actually I am convinced there is a way to get really great kick without jacking up ones bod. Like effortless kick is a thing man! Check out this vid and the serves he is getting with no legs.