Federer-Djokovic - World Tour Finals - RR - 2013
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romeo8880
G.O.A.T.
More matches doesn't necessarily mean "worse physical condition." Degenerative back disease is a serious problem. Again, when somebody's getting spinal injections, how could you possibly say they were anything close to 100%?
Not only that, somebody could burn out after 800 matches depending on their playing style and physio. Fed's played way more matches than Hewitt but nobody would say that Hewitt's in better physical condition.
TheF1Bob
Banned
Novak losing the plot deceived Fed fans confirmed.
Bud
Bionic Poster
I'm not a Federer fan. However, the guy is 32 years old playing another guy 5 years younger who just entered his prime/peak/prime within the last 2 years (peaked in 2011)
I think this result was pretty predictable and kudos to Federer for winning a set.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Oh no of course you didn't, you innocent little Mirkard you.
Exactly. Now Federer is a shadow of himself. All the younger generation will remember about Federer is a guy with sub-par lateral movement, a shaky backhand and a mediocre ROS. All they'll know of Federer is a has-been who stayed in the game beyond his expiration date.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
You clearly don't understand me. Why would I have to boost Fed's legacy by using his wins over Agassi anyway?
It's completely different than people who use the H2H's against guys that are much younger to make these inane "weak era" arguments. The point is, if these guys didn't have their H2H's against Federer they wouldn't be as "good" in the eyes of some people.
For example, if Nadal and Federer had played in completely different eras, Nadal wouldn't have his H2H. He'd have his 13 slams and Federer would have his 17, but because Nadal is from around the same time frame, he's boosted because of his H2H with Fed.
If you took away the Fed-Agassi H2H it does nothing to either boost or hurt Federer's legacy.
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Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
I hope Rozroz is ok.
whadya mean? i am no longer putting emotional efforts towards the old man.
2nd set was fun though.
too bad.
nice of you to ask about me
how are u btw?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was talking about other Fed fans who tout Fed's wins over Agassi.
RF20Lennon
Legend
Just saw this and LOL'ed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVfhJO2_tO0
What he was and what he is now!
What he was and what he is now!
dunlop_fort_knox
Professional
yep. but fed beat up on older players too. what goes around comes around. these h2h are going to be a problem for the fed legacy if he has losing h2h against 2 of his main rivals.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Hewitt has had multiple sugeries and form has completely disappeared. Agassi was still capable of stringing together good runs even at the grand slam level. It's completely different. Did Agassi not put on some great matches at 34-35 years old? Because that's the crux of it. Agassi was playing better at 34-35 than Federer is at 32. That's how I define physical condition. Whatever ailments Agassi had he kept a lid on them in plenty of important matches. His back didn't both him in the USO final until the last set, says as much in his autobiography.
Who Am I?
Banned
Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
Kudos for Novak for having a ******** level in him. That was impressive!
hey, i still like Novak. it's just that he should have let the old man have a match and join him in 2nd place.
TheF1Bob
Banned
Oh come now, do you really want a match with Nadal in the semis? Novak did Fed a huge favor me thinks.
The last thing you need is the Capy farts gloating about how their Capy hero defeated Peak Fed.
Federer also strings together great matches. I mean, he made the semis of Australia. The QF at the French. He won the title at Halle. He won a set off Nadal in Cincinnati. And he was even able to qualify for the WTF. Those are good results, no?
Agassi said that his back started giving him serious problems back in 2001. By 2006, the pain became absolutely unbearable and that's when he retired.
Speranza
Hall of Fame
Yep. Also, you can notice the surface change in the highlights here compared to today and yesterday.
How many winners were hit tonight? And not just from Roger?
It's more a game of errors.
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
borefest day! maybe Wawa could put in some entertainment
There is no accounting for taste.
RF20Lennon
Legend
LOL this guy never fails to make me laugh. I remember last year after Fed just won the 4th set against Benneteau at Wimbledon to push it to a 5th. He said something like "change of undies for Fed fans" :lol:
dunlop_fort_knox
Professional
look at it this way. he's the best 32 year old tennis player on the planet.
It was worse seeing Michael Jordan elevate all of 18 inches off the ground and miss slam dunks. Trust me. Much, much, much worse actually.
Seeing Roy Jones, Jr. get pounded by Joe Calzaghe was also pretty bad. Just like seeing Muhammad Ali fight past him prime was pretty bad.
Seeing Brett Favre stay in the NFL until he was basically forced out was also very sad. Pathetic actually.
Crayola Oblongata
Hall of Fame
whadya mean? i am no longer putting emotional efforts towards the old man.
2nd set was fun though.
too bad.
nice of you to ask about me
how are u btw?
I know what you mean, I try not to invest too much emotions into the matches, but it's hard to not to get carried away when you see some magic. I just sort of expect the losses now, but a part of me still has this hope for an epic win. So yeah, I have the sads
Not as bad as Wimbledon though! ughh.. Good you're not taking it too bad then. I've got tickets for Thursday, but a Gasquet/Fed match is like Sophie's choice for me :S But a 1hbh dream!
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Tommy Robredo may have something to say about that. He may be ranked higher than Federer after Australia.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah. Who? TMF? Please don't use this board as a general indicator. That's the problem with these generalizations. People see a few bad apples, and they generalize it with "Federer fans" to make the argument sound more convincing. It's an easy recipe for any fanbase.
Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Federer's had back problems since he was junior
. His back problems evidently weren't continuous judging by the level of play he sometimes reached.Did you see the way he got crushed at the French? In general Federer's level of play has been lower than Agassi's was. Agassi played better in his semi final appearence in 2004 at the AO and his form at the USO was actually very good. He actually won Cincinnati. Agassi even in his old age was better than most of today's top 10...
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Actually, the specific poster I was responding to was in fact doing that. It's just that you interjected and then I explained why we were talking about Agassi.
Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
Federer's had back problems since he was junior
Did you see the way he got crushed at the French? In general Federer's level of play has been lower than Agassi's was. Agassi played better in his semi final appearence in 2004 at the AO and his form at the USO was actually very good. He actually won Cincinnati. Agassi even in his old age was better than most of today's top 10...
didn't know he had back issues since the start.
pretty amazing.
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer is really weak at crucial stages. He is to up and down too. Wins the tie break comfortably and then loses on serve immidietly in 3rd set.
This is not something we see just now when his got older, he has been weak against the top guys before too at crucial stages.
Nevertheless he shows that he can keep up at the absolute top, won against a del potro inform and has forced novak to three sets both times. He is getting there for sure and thats the positive thing now.
But you can see that federer really isnt a good match up for nole. An old federer is pushing a nole in top form to the limit. You understand why fed in his prime is the better player. But for nole since 2010 nadal has been a good match up, its suits him better. He plays so good against nadal and brings amazing shots. While nadal is a nightmare for fed.
Come on rog, its not over yet!
This is not something we see just now when his got older, he has been weak against the top guys before too at crucial stages.
Nevertheless he shows that he can keep up at the absolute top, won against a del potro inform and has forced novak to three sets both times. He is getting there for sure and thats the positive thing now.
But you can see that federer really isnt a good match up for nole. An old federer is pushing a nole in top form to the limit. You understand why fed in his prime is the better player. But for nole since 2010 nadal has been a good match up, its suits him better. He plays so good against nadal and brings amazing shots. While nadal is a nightmare for fed.
Come on rog, its not over yet!
RF20Lennon
Legend
You sound like you're joking, but at that time I really did s.hit my pants.
LOL thats what he said and I was so tensed in that match. I was literally sweating and then I started cracking up when I read that!
All i noticed is the bad play from Djoko. It is amazing how he becomes a player that he is today. Needless to say that i am no Djoko fan.
Federer's had back problems since he was junior
I have back problems. And I'm the same age as Federer. There's a difference between having back problems and having degenerative spine disease. The latter would actually qualify as a disability under the old standards of the Americans with Disabilities Act (which was a much tougher standard to meet).
Did you see that Agassi lost in the 1st Round of the FO in 2005? Do you consider that a good result in light of the fact he had actually WON the tournament before? Or how about the fact that he withdrew from Wimbledon that year due to injury (which Federer has never had to do)? And yet you really want to argue that Fed's form is somehow worse today than Agassi's was then? Please.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Haha! Don't try to say I interjected in your argument. I was responding to The_Order before you jumped in.
Anyway, Fed's H2H against Djokovic in particular really doesn't mean a row of beans to me, and I'm not just saying that. I really don't understand the obsession with H2H at all if both players are not in their primes.
The Nadal H2H is a bit different, but the Djokovic and Murray H2H's mean absolutely jack squat to me.
roger lacks that tiny % that makes the difference... well even the greatest are just human and at 32 he is still a heck of a player.
nole played the third set on a great level, still kudos to roger for thr fight and desire. would he be willing to go just a little bit away from his stubbornness he could increase his chances...
nole played the third set on a great level, still kudos to roger for thr fight and desire. would he be willing to go just a little bit away from his stubbornness he could increase his chances...
But he was saying the same thing I was...
All we said is that if wins over non-prime Fed don't count, then Fed's wins over non-prime Agassi or Sampras shouldn't count. People try to argue that Fed's wins against them should count because they were in better shape/form then than he is now, but that's a rather dubious claim. In 2005, Agassi was a shell of his former self and looked ridiculous with that shiny bald head, the ankle socks and the short shorts. In 2001, Sampras failed to win a title the whole entire season. How could you honestly say those players were in good form when Federer played them?
The funny thing is is that some teenager today probably thinks that Djokovic pwns Fed the same way Fed's fans think he pwned Agassi.
FederErizeD
Hall of Fame
Fed's always a clutch in red .. I'm thinking his ****ed up outfits this season have done their share to his subpar performance
.. NIKE failed him big time :evil:
thanks for the reminder .. Those were the days !
NatF
Bionic Poster
Yes but regardless of his condition Agassi was still able to 'at times' preform at a very high level. Is that not so?
Did you see Agassi's match with Blake at the USO? A better match than Federer's played all year but some margin. Agassi made the finals of a Masters and the final of the USO in 2005. He also made the Quarter finals of the AO and the semi's of Miami. His results were pretty good. I don't count matches where one player is obviously hampered, but if Federer or Agassi is playing well I don't see why it should be ignored.
I don't think because Federer beat Agassi 8 straight times he would do so against Agassi of 1995 (only 1997-1998
), but I do consider older Agassi a tough opponent because he was playing well still.
RF20Lennon
Legend
Fed's always a clutch in red .. I'm thinking his ****ed up outfits this season have done their share to his subpar performance
NIKE failed him big time :evil:
thanks for the reminder .. Those were the days !
Back when Fed didn't shank as much and when he actually converted set points!
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Yes but regardless of his condition Agassi was still able to 'at times' preform at a very high level. Is that not so?
Did you see Agassi's match with Blake at the USO? A better match than Federer's played all year but some margin. Agassi made the finals of a Masters and the final of the USO in 2005. He also made the Quarter finals of the AO and the semi's of Miami. His results were pretty good. I don't count matches where one player is obviously hampered, but if Federer or Agassi is playing well I don't see why it should be ignored.
I don't think because Federer beat Agassi 8 straight times he would do so against Agassi of 1995 (only 1997-1998
Ok then. Fed played very well in WIM08, AO09, RG11, AO12 and Cinci13. All those wins shouldn't be disregarded but they have been by numerous "fed fans" and no I'm not talking about trolls like TMF, but Mandy and abmk spring to mind...
The mono excuse for 08 is a joke. The age card being thrown out for AO09 is even worse lol.
