Why do people consider Division 3 Tennis a waste of time?

Bdarb

Bdarb

Hall of Fame
goldy0084 said:
What team was that and where did those guys play in D1? I saw Drew University lost 9-0 to Christopher Newport last year. Four of those matches were 6-0, 6-0 or not close. Christopher Newport would not make more than a couple games in an entire dual match against William & Mary or another local D1 team...and WM is not even in the top 75. With all due respect, the level gap is just too big man. I have always said there are some very solid 4/5 star kids playing in D3, but in a team dual match against any decent caliber D1 team, it just ain't happening.
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Obviously this isn't the norm, or d3 would be d1. But there are definitely d3 schools out there with some serious international recruits and kids who can play. My high school coach for instance played at a junior college in ohio somewhere and was recruitef from texas, and they could hang with some serious schools. Like the pro mentioned before fom Gustafson (?) they had won some obscene amount of titles etc. clearly this isn't the norm but there are small schools that bring some serious game.
 
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ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Bdarb said:
Like the pro mentioned before fom Gustafson (?) they had won some obscene amount of titles etc. clearly this isn't the norm but there are small schools that bring some serious game.
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Must be Gustavus Adolphus in Minnesota.
 
tennisjon

tennisjon

Professional
goldy0084 said:
What team was that and where did those guys play in D1? I saw Drew University lost 9-0 to Christopher Newport last year. Four of those matches were 6-0, 6-0 or not close. Christopher Newport would not make more than a couple games in an entire dual match against William & Mary or another local D1 team...and WM is not even in the top 75. With all due respect, the level gap is just too big man. I have always said there are some very solid 4/5 star kids playing in D3, but in a team dual match against any decent caliber D1 team, it just ain't happening.
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Our 3, 4, and 5 didn't play that match. Due to many injuries we hadn't been able to work much on doubles. The team we played was CUNY Baruch. Their players had played for FDU and Wagner.
 
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goldy0084

Rookie
Again, it's comparing apples and papayas. I have nothing but respect for anyone working hard and competing in ANY division. But, the discrepancy in level is just too big. Really irrelevant to me if you were missing a couple of guys. I am sure you did an outstanding job with the program and congrats for that. But, results are results...any team you beat or lost to would get absolutely waxed by a decent d1 team. Wagner and FDu are not even ranked among the top 150 teams in D1 in the unoffical rank list.
 
tennisjon

tennisjon

Professional
goldy0084 said:
any team you beat or lost to would get absolutely waxed by a decent d1 team. Wagner and FDu are not even ranked among the top 150 teams in D1 in the unoffical rank list.
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Exactly, that is the point. There are a ton of poor D1 programs, although FDU last year was not one of them. They made nationals and their first singles beat Jamere Jenkins in their first set before the match was decided. People look down on D3 as if it is an inferior product, but I know of many D1 programs that have babysitter coaches. Some people just want to say they played D1. Some just want a scholarship. D3 programs may not be able to offer athletic scholarships, but they can offer some very good academic and need-based scholarships. The emphasis is more on the student part of student-athlete. For most people, this is the right way to go. For those who are in a different academic, financial, and athletic situation, D2 or D1 might be better. This is why people should really do their research before deciding on a school.
 
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goldy0084

Rookie
Define poor. They they are not bad, but also not good in the scheme of things. They lost 7-0 to Princeton. The Latvian guy at 1 can obviously play. But (in reference to your example), JJ gets bored sometimes too. He tanked most of the match against Mark Vines this summer and lost a set and every ignorant person on here had a panic attack. Anyhow, outside the top 150 is pretty weak and FDU probably wouldn't have made a point off an unranked team from the northeast last year like Binghamton. On the other end of the spectrum, FDU would easily be top 10 in D3. It's not an inferior product, it is a DIFFERENT product...and unfortunately "different" still means weaker level-wise on the whole...by a lot. There are also bad coaches and babysitter coaches in ANY division. Period. Additionally, there are a lot of uneducated coaches. At the end of the day, it's all about perspective and what your goals are. UWGB smoked the #1 D3 team 7-0. Does that mean Kenyon had bad players or that D3 is "bad"? No. Absolutely not. I watched some guys from Johns Hopkins recently who were really good. Buxbaum who probably won't even play #1 for them was a 5-star. The product is not "inferior," just different. It doesn't diminish the experience for any of these guys...just a different experience..that may be better or worse based on your goals, wants, and needs. I have said it on here numerous times. Playing for a school like Emory or Williams is a great investment regardless. You are still going to have a fun team experience and get an amazing degree from a top educational institution. But level-wise--- apples and papayas.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
goldy0084 said:
UWGB smoked the #1 D3 team 7-0. Does that mean Kenyon had bad players or that D3 is "bad"? No. Absolutely not.
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One thing it means is that Kenyon was overrated all season. The #10 team beat them 5-1 in singles in the NCAA QF round and did not have to play doubles.

It would be interesting to see what the posters who complain about international tennis recruits at mid-major programs have to say about the Kenyon-UWGB match. The roster this year at UWGB features two Brits and three Germans. Kenyon tends to feature about three 4-stars and three 3-stars in their top six (which is not enough to be the best in DIII, hence they were exposed in the tourney). Does anyone suppose that American 4-star recruits can be lured in significant numbers to the sunny tennis paradise of UW-Green Bay? Yet they beat Kenyon 7-0. Maybe all the foreign recruits that you CAN lure to such a place are actually better than the domestic recruits you would be able to get.

Maybe the majority of the four-star recruits would rather be in D-III academics & tennis than UWGB academics & tennis.
 
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goldy0084

Rookie
Spot on Clark. Mark Thomas has done a great job recruiting. His guys fight hard and care. He is doing what he needs to do to be successful there. Let's face it--American junior tennis is pretty weak...not enough kids in the pot to go around. A 5-star who was 60 in the country is playing like 15 for an ACC team. Small schools and mid-majors have to scrap and hustle with international kids and some mixed in Americans. I know if I am a 3/4 star American kid with dough (most of them lol), I would much rather play matches and get an Emory education that not play at a mediocre D1 academic school. That's why I never advocate for any division...but call the level discrepancy like it is.
 
tennisjon

tennisjon

Professional
goldy0084 said:
Define poor.
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Wagner (D1), the other school I mentioned, lost their #1 and #2 to transfer to Baruch (D3). At Baruch, they were #1 and #4, with a decent drop between their 3 and 4. Both Baruch and Drew would have beaten Wagner and neither are ranked D3 teams (although last year our 1st doubles was #7 in the country). There are other schools that are D1 that may lack scholarships, coaching, recruiting, location, or facilities to attract higher level talent.
 
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goldy0084

Rookie
Binghamton was 43 in the country in '10 with 3 scholarships, zero budget money, awful location, and no indoor. If you are trying and know what you are doing, you can get better...maybe not 43 in the country better, but at least improve.

Now, if I am a 2-star American ranked 500 USTA and deciding between Wagner and Drew, I really couldn't tell you. Me personally, I couldn't give two rips about them being D1 or D3. Maybe a 2-star kid thinks it's so amazing and prestigious to play D1 tennis at Wagner. Hey, to each their own. In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the kind. Again, it totally depends on your wants, needs, and goals. I would think at Drew, you could probably try to win some dual matches and be decent in your league, since Wagner is really awful. They lost to Coppin State. Ouch.
 
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tennisguymcgee

New User
Please do not use Wagner as an example of a Divison 1 tennis program. Wagner is hands down the worst tennis program in Divison 1. Maybe the worst sports program in Divison 1. They rarely, if ever, win points in a match. Almost every loss is 7-0. A few years ago they were simply atrocious, and lost I think all but one match 7-0. They almost never have a full squad of six guys, causing them to always default at least two matches. Frequently their lower guys don't even play tennis as their primary sport. This doesn't even get into their "facility." They did recently get some scholarship money and have slightly improved, but even that is a stretch. They had a respectable number 1 a few years, but other than that, Wagner players are not even to be considered low level division 1 players.
 
S

SStrikerR

Hall of Fame
goldy0084 said:
Define poor. They they are not bad, but also not good in the scheme of things. They lost 7-0 to Princeton. The Latvian guy at 1 can obviously play. But (in reference to your example), JJ gets bored sometimes too. He tanked most of the match against Mark Vines this summer and lost a set and every ignorant person on here had a panic attack. Anyhow, outside the top 150 is pretty weak and FDU probably wouldn't have made a point off an unranked team from the northeast last year like Binghamton. On the other end of the spectrum, FDU would easily be top 10 in D3. It's not an inferior product, it is a DIFFERENT product...and unfortunately "different" still means weaker level-wise on the whole...by a lot. There are also bad coaches and babysitter coaches in ANY division. Period. Additionally, there are a lot of uneducated coaches. At the end of the day, it's all about perspective and what your goals are. UWGB smoked the #1 D3 team 7-0. Does that mean Kenyon had bad players or that D3 is "bad"? No. Absolutely not. I watched some guys from Johns Hopkins recently who were really good. Buxbaum who probably won't even play #1 for them was a 5-star. The product is not "inferior," just different. It doesn't diminish the experience for any of these guys...just a different experience..that may be better or worse based on your goals, wants, and needs. I have said it on here numerous times. Playing for a school like Emory or Williams is a great investment regardless. You are still going to have a fun team experience and get an amazing degree from a top educational institution. But level-wise--- apples and papayas.
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Slightly off topic, but mike is a beast. I watched him at districts last year, and in his semi he had an off-match and still smoked the kid from stoga. And coming in as a freshman, getting the 9 seed at ITAs in singles and then winning the doubles title as a freshman? Wow. I watched him a bit at ITAs. I want my team to make the tournament, but I can't say I enjoy the possibility of us drawing Hopkins.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
tennisguymcgee said:
Please do not use Wagner as an example of a Divison 1 tennis program. Wagner is hands down the worst tennis program in Divison 1. Maybe the worst sports program in Divison 1. They rarely, if ever, win points in a match. Almost every loss is 7-0. A few years ago they were simply atrocious, and lost I think all but one match 7-0. They almost never have a full squad of six guys, causing them to always default at least two matches.
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Wow, I wonder what this says about Rider University, also a Division I program?

Wagner 6-1 over Rider

The TRN page for Rider lists these fall tennis stories:

27-Oct-2013 Drexel 6, Rider 0
19-Oct-2013 Mount St. Mary's 7 Rider 0
15-Oct-2013 Wagner 6, Rider 1
13-Oct-2013 Saint Peter's 7, Rider 0
12-Oct-2013 M/W: Quinnipiac 7 Rider 0
8-Oct-2013 Philadelphia University 9 Rider 0
6-Oct-2013 Queens College 7, Rider University 0
28-Sep-2013 Rider Swept by Siena
25-Sep-2013 NJIT 6, Rider 1
22-Sep-2013 Saint Thomas Aquinas 6 Rider 1

I guess it is hard for Wagner to be "hands down the worst tennis program in Division 1. Maybe the worst sports program in Division 1."

As a UVa fan, I was impressed by Danny Kreyman at Wake Forest, and he is now the coach at Wagner. This fall is his first season.
 
jhick

jhick

Hall of Fame
ClarkC said:
28-Sep-2013 Rider Swept by Siena
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I played for UW-River Falls, a D3 program which was disbanded in the mid 90's due to Title 9. During my freshman year our team went 4-17. One of our wins was at spring break down in Hilton Head against Siena. I was surprised that a D1 school could be so mediocre. I'm guessing Siena has since improved, but Rider must be a really bad D1 tennis program.
 
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TobyTopspin

Professional
I played at a D2 school, but it was a small school. It was some of the best times of my life. I've had hard times as most people have at one time or another and the one thing that I do know is that tennis is always there. Take pride in yourself that you play at a level that few will ever obtain.

Don't get caught up in what is said or implied about yourself. Most people are just jealous. The only opinion that matters is the one that you have of yourself. There are thousands of players that would give there left *** to be where you are.
 
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tennisguymcgee

New User
ClarkC said:
Wow, I wonder what this says about Rider University, also a Division I program?

Wagner 6-1 over Rider

The TRN page for Rider lists these fall tennis stories:

27-Oct-2013 Drexel 6, Rider 0
19-Oct-2013 Mount St. Mary's 7 Rider 0
15-Oct-2013 Wagner 6, Rider 1
13-Oct-2013 Saint Peter's 7, Rider 0
12-Oct-2013 M/W: Quinnipiac 7 Rider 0
8-Oct-2013 Philadelphia University 9 Rider 0
6-Oct-2013 Queens College 7, Rider University 0
28-Sep-2013 Rider Swept by Siena
25-Sep-2013 NJIT 6, Rider 1
22-Sep-2013 Saint Thomas Aquinas 6 Rider 1

I guess it is hard for Wagner to be "hands down the worst tennis program in Division 1. Maybe the worst sports program in Division 1."

As a UVa fan, I was impressed by Danny Kreyman at Wake Forest, and he is now the coach at Wagner. This fall is his first season.
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I graduated in 2012, it is possible Wagner has improved some, but I am sure not very much. From 2008-2012 they were simply horrible.
 
A

andfor

Legend
Kreyman is a good kid. I'd like to think if he had some scholarship money and a little resources to work with he could progress Wagner's program. He's a good player as well. For a borderline DI player coming it, it would be a good place to develop if Keyman would participate in the workouts and match practice with his players.
 
hrstrat57

hrstrat57

Hall of Fame
Nope nothing sinister, just free stuff - logo stuff you know, hats, shirts old unis etc.

Best part about D 3 tennis swag for me is I get some of it handed down from the kiddos.....I like free.
 
Bdarb

Bdarb

Hall of Fame
hrstrat57 said:
Nope nothing sinister, just free stuff - logo stuff you know, hats, shirts old unis etc.

Best part about D 3 tennis swag for me is I get some of it handed down from the kiddos.....I like free.
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my dad wears my old extra tennis jerseys I had given him to the public courts with our school logo. He jokes he paid 60,000 dollars for them, he better use them.

As for the swag thing, yes that is the original acronym until it was hijacked by that bieber kid. Now I can't use it anymore lol. Loved team swag, we got bags and tons of clothes but the best was our coach was hooked up by companies so we'd get a few racquets once in a great while. I paid for a couple pairs of tennis shoes a year, and string. That was it. Weren't those the days...
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
ClarkC said:
Wow, I wonder what this says about Rider University, also a Division I program?

Wagner 6-1 over Rider

The TRN page for Rider lists these fall tennis stories:

27-Oct-2013 Drexel 6, Rider 0
19-Oct-2013 Mount St. Mary's 7 Rider 0
15-Oct-2013 Wagner 6, Rider 1
13-Oct-2013 Saint Peter's 7, Rider 0
12-Oct-2013 M/W: Quinnipiac 7 Rider 0
8-Oct-2013 Philadelphia University 9 Rider 0
6-Oct-2013 Queens College 7, Rider University 0
28-Sep-2013 Rider Swept by Siena
25-Sep-2013 NJIT 6, Rider 1
22-Sep-2013 Saint Thomas Aquinas 6 Rider 1

I guess it is hard for Wagner to be "hands down the worst tennis program in Division 1. Maybe the worst sports program in Division 1."

As a UVa fan, I was impressed by Danny Kreyman at Wake Forest, and he is now the coach at Wagner. This fall is his first season.
Click to expand...

This is right in my wheelhouse. There are 3 colleges in my area with NCAA tennis programs - Princeton (D1), Rider (D1), and TCNJ (D3). Princeton is a legit D1 school and by far the best of the three. Rider is a very weak D1 (I don't think they even have any tennis scholarships...) and TCNJ is a strong (but not elite) D3. I don't know if they play dual matches or even practices/scrimmages or whatever (the schools are only like 3 miles apart...), but TCNJ would smoke Rider at every position in the lineup if they did, and (OTOH) would not win a single court from Princeton if they got together.
 
S

silentkman

Hall of Fame
I think the illusion in playing Div 1 is that you make as a pro. USTA states that it cost about 140K a year to play. How many pros are making that of money. The 100th ranked player in tennis made 350K and same ranked golfer made 832K. How many American former college players can make a good living on the pro tour? In Div 3 there are no lllusions.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
I see that Wagner and Danny Kreyman have commitments from a 4-star and two 3-star recruits for next fall. Things seem to be looking up at Wagner. How they will compare to D-III schools next year depends on which D-III school we are talking about, of course.
 
C

chris-swede

Hall of Fame
i know a player who is playing Div II Tennis at Francis Marion. He is playing positions 3 to 6 and is mostly winning it.
 
B

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
I never got this impression, but I'm sure it exists.

For those people who do think it's a waste of time, I'm sure for a lot it's just ignorance, not being aware of the full scope of DIII tennis. And, there is the reality that it is a level(s) below DI and really is generally of not the same quality.

That said, the spread in the level of tennis played is huge. If you go watch DIII Team Indoors or the final 8 of NCAAs, you'll see Programs like Wash U., Pomona, Emory, UCSC (just to name a few powerhouse programs) where all of the players could be playing D1. [Note: I'm not saying they'd be playing at the very best schools necessarily, but they could find a spot somewhere, and the very top guys could play at some pretty decent DI schools]. Then you have programs like the one that came to play my local DII school. The top two players on that DIII team were probably 4.5s with everyone else being somewhere on the 4.0 scale. Nothing wrong with that. They have an opportunity to play tennis while going to school. Why pass that up?
 
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