2HBH: should the racket stay on the "outside" too?

D

dominikk1985

Legend
With the "ATP" FH the racket and arm will stay "outside" i.e. on the chest side of the fence and the racket outside of the hand at the end of the backswing before the arm starts forward.

how about the 2HBH? should the racket stay pointed to the outside too at the end of the backswing or being wrapped around the body?
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
I would recommend keeping it on the outside of your body. It would actually be pretty tough to wrap it around much because your right hand would prevent that from happening. Still, you want to keep the loop from coming around behind you.
 
Tight Lines

Tight Lines

Professional
Actually, that is grip dependent.

If you have a semi western top hand, the swingline should be more inside out than outside in. In that case, you want the racket to go around to the other side.

Harry
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
Macci video is good and here's tennis oxygen pro 2hbh comparison that i like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PvSJP7CRZM

I think when you say "outside .. chest side", you mean do the hands stay in front of the chest even thought the chest is to the side. I think keeping the hands in front of the chest/shoulder line (of course shoulders are facing side fence) if the preferred method. It keeps the stroke compact and still gives plenty of power and control.

As you start the forward swing, the wrist/forearms drop into the slot or hitting position. You will see the racket head drop a behind the hands a bit at this point. This was the flipping motion Macci demostrated. Some pros put the wrist in this laid back position at the prep phase which is OK too and some pros keep the wrist neutral in the prep phase. If laid back wrist in prep, the drop/flip into the slot is reduced while neutral at prep have a bigger drop/flip into the slot. Personally, I prefer a bit of lay back in my wrist in the prep phase but you'll see both.

Djoko lays the wrist back very early in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed3S-X1Xiv4. His racket head actually goes back behind the shoulder plane a bit due to the wrist lay back but his hands are still at or in front of the shoulder line.
 
Lukhas

Lukhas

Legend
Maximagq said:
What grip does Djokovic use on his top hand? Eastern forehand or semi-western?
Click to expand...
You... traitor to the cause of the glorious one-handed backhand master race! :evil:

This is what Google says when typing "Djokovic Backhand Grip".
http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/djokobackhand.png
http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/novak-djokovic-backswing.jpg
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/01/25/1226253/866269-120125-novak-djokovic.jpg
Looks like SW.
 
S

stingyoyo

New User
I dont know Mr macci's but what he is teaching is wrong!!! Try and keep your elbows close to the body because at contact you want to have your body behind the shot and like he is showing that the racket and arms are far away to the side. Back to the first question , it is not like the forhand of the mens on the atp. You should let the racket drop a little behind your back leg and then get into the hiting slot. That is the way all top backhands are hit atp wta. I usually dont coment here but thats a big big mistake. and as you see my english is not perfect but as a tennis pro i work with many top juniors and pros and got to work with many other top coaches in my carear. So get it right and good luck
 
J

julian

Hall of Fame
Another related thread

stingyoyo said:
I dont know Mr macci's but what he is teaching is wrong!!! Try and keep your elbows close to the body because at contact you want to have your body behind the shot and like he is showing that the racket and arms are far away to the side. Back to the first question , it is not like the forhand of the mens on the atp. You should let the racket drop a little behind your back leg and then get into the hiting slot. That is the way all top backhands are hit atp wta. I usually dont coment here but thats a big big mistake. and as you see my english is not perfect but as a tennis pro i work with many top juniors and pros and got to work with many other top coaches in my carear. So get it right and good luck
Click to expand...
Greetings,
you are welcome to visit another thread about double handed backhand
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248
Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA
Bedford,MA
 
B

bhupaes

Professional
Although I consider the 2hbh to be like the forehand, it differs in some respects.

First of all, for a righty, the right hand restricts how far back the left hand will go, and prevents the left arm and shoulder from being loaded as in a forehand. Thus it is imperative that the right shoulder stretch to the maximum extent in the backswing as part of loading. It should feel tight just before the forward swing starts.

Secondly, the wrist of the left arm must extend, and that of the right hand must flex accordingly, so that the butt of the racquet points to the ball when the forward swing is initiated. The forward swing is like a left handed forehand in that the racquet is pulled into the ball from the inside to the outside as the ball is hit up and across.

IMO, these are the two most important fundamentals of the 2hbh. Of course, there is footwork that goes with it... this has been discussed recently and I agree with the main points. Whether the racquet stays wholly on the hitting side or not is not relevant, IMO.
 
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Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
julian said:
Do you care to elaborate?
Click to expand...

Sure. I agree with him that there should be a racket "flip," if that's what he likes to call it, but when he demonstrates, he flips not only his wrists but his elbows. That's about one of the worst things you can do with a two hander if you hope to hit a clean ball.
 
J

julian

Hall of Fame
I am NOT sure whether you are correct

Topspin Shot said:
Sure. I agree with him that there should be a racket "flip," if that's what he likes to call it, but when he demonstrates, he flips not only his wrists but his elbows. That's about one of the worst things you can do with a two hander if you hope to hit a clean ball.
Click to expand...

I am NOT sure whether you are correct in interpretation of the tape/video.
Please note that the quality of the tape/voice is bad.
I coach the way Djokovic does it and I do NOT see the problem you mentioned.
 
Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
julian said:
I am NOT sure whether you are correct in interpretation of the tape/video.
Please note that the quality of the tape/voice is bad.
I coach the way Djokovic does it and I do NOT see the problem you mentioned.
Click to expand...

Macci was definitely demonstrating a flip of the elbows. Whether he was simply exaggerating for the purpose of his audience is another question; all I was saying is that I hope he doesn't teach it that way. BTW, Djokovic has a very good backhand and is a good teaching model.
 
R

rkelley

Hall of Fame
I didn't spend a ton of time with it, but that Macci 2hbh video seems to be emphasizing the wrong things. That elbow flip thing I don't get.

Djokovic's bh looks great. Do that.
 
J

julian

Hall of Fame
Performance requirements

Topspin Shot said:
What about post #33?
Click to expand...

The up part of the forward swing for A DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND can be constrained by two factors:

1.capability to obtain two SSC's:
FIRST at a lowest point of a swing,the second one at a contact

2.capability to achieve a PRESCRIBED lowest point plus a required slope

Please see AGAIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw
The LOWEST POINT was SOMEWHERE above the level of knees.
The angle of the slope looks like around 45 degrees.

Now we have multiple questions of a day:
how do we produce a motion of an arm to achieve #1 and/or #2 above ?

Are we constrained by enviroroment/bounce/etc?

What are OBSERVABLE to see whether SSC was achieved?

How #2 influences # of shanks?

Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA
Bedford,MA,US

I understand that the "FLIP" in THIS THREAD is equivalent of what I call the "UP pART of the forward swing"
 
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C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
julian said:
The up part of the forward swing for A DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND can be constrained by two factors:

1.capability to obtain two SSC's:
one at a lowest point,the second at a contact

..................................
Click to expand...

What does "the second at a contact" mean?
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
julian said:
The up part of the forward swing for A DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND can be constrained by two factors:

1.capability to obtain two SSC's:
one at a lowest point,the second at a contact
Click to expand...

I understand that it looks like there is a loading phase occurring at the lowest point as the racket dips down and lags, but I don't see a SSC at contact. Could you explain what you mean by that.

2.capability to achieve a PRESCRIBED lowest point plus a required slope

Please see AGAIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw
The LOWEST POINT was SOMEWHERE above the level of knees.
The angle of the slope looks like around 45 degrees.

Now we have multiple questions of a day:
how do we produce a motion of an arm to achieve #1 and/or #2 above ?

Are we constrained by enviroroment/bounce/etc?

What are OBSERVABLE to see whether SSC was achieved?

How #2 influences # of shanks?

Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA
Bedford,MA,US

I understand that the "FLIP" in THIS THREAD is equivalent of what I call the "UP pART of the forward swing"
Click to expand...

I think the downward dipping of the racket head (is this what Macci means by flip?) is muscular because by intuition it appears to be happening too quickly to be simply due to gravity.

I think it is a teachable motion that we should look for in our students, especially if they have a mostly across motion which drives the ball very flat (more like an old-school Connor's 2hbh). I haven't developed any drills, but if it is a muscular motion we should develop step-by-step drills to make the students feel the dip.

I don't know enough which muscles are being loaded by the dipping motion, but it definitely creates a need to raise the head at contact which provides heavier topspin.
 
J

julian

Hall of Fame
Let me explain slowly

Chas Tennis said:
What is contacting what?
Click to expand...
A racket is contacting a ball.
I apologize for my typing-not easy from a mobile.

Let me describe the sequence:
A racket reaches a lowest point.
Arms/arm maybe straight here.
A racket goes up
A racket contacts a ball
Arms/arm maybe straight here

Am I helping AT ALL?
 
J

julian

Hall of Fame
Arms STRAIGHT at the LOWEST POINT?

WildVolley said:
I understand that it looks like there is a loading phase occurring at the lowest point as the racket dips down and lags, but I don't see a SSC at contact. Could you explain what you mean by that.



I think the downward dipping of the racket head (is this what Macci means by flip?) is muscular because by intuition it appears to be happening too quickly to be simply due to gravity.
I think it is a teachable motion that we should look for in our students, especially if they have a mostly across motion which drives the ball very flat (more like an old-school Connor's 2hbh). I haven't developed any drills, but if it is a muscular motion we should develop step-by-step drills to make the students feel the dip.

I don't know enough which muscles are being loaded by the dipping motion, but it definitely creates a need to raise the head at contact which provides heavier topspin.
Click to expand...
Greetings,
I teach "the dip".

Switching gears to some observations/some videos
Arms are observed to be straight AT THE LOWEST POINT at some NADAL's backhand return of serve.
It maybe (note maybe) an indicator of an SSC here.
The PAID Web site www.tennisicoach.com has a video of Nadal hitting a backhand return of serve.
A "video" consists of 15 or more still photos.
The photo closest to the LOWEST point shows straight arms-it is just an observation.
So the sequence is
bent (before the LOWEST point)
STRAIGHT at the LOWEST point
bent again on a way up
STRAIGHT close to the contact point (with a ball)
I do NOT know whether it can be taught or NOT.
please see http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248&page=2 post #28
Julian W.Mielniczuk
USPTA
Bedford,MA,US
 
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C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
julian said:
.....................
Let me describe the sequence:
A racket reaches a lowest point.
Arms/arm maybe straight here.
A racket goes up
A racket contacts a ball
Arms/arm maybe straight here
.....................
Click to expand...

Ball contact or impact lasts about 3-5 milliseconds.

A stretch shortening cycle for a joint motion may be much longer, a slower stretching phase followed by an accelerating phase, tenths of a second? Usually for impact those particular SSCs have reached a high velocity. (ISR for the serve.) If you mean the SSC or those SSCs that continue to impact, try to identify, by muscles or joint.

For example only (not for any stroke),
Leading to impact, a SSC cycle of trunk muscles is used to rotate the upper body and a SSC of a shoulder muscle is used to accelerate the arm, etc.
 
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J

julian

Hall of Fame
A peak of SSC

Chas Tennis said:
Ball contact or impact lasts about 3-5 milliseconds.

A stretch shortening cycle for a joint motion may be much longer, a slower stretching phase followed by an accelerating phase, tenths of a second? Usually for impact those particular SSCs have reached a high velocity. (ISR for the serve.) If you mean the SSC or those SSCs that continue to impact, try to identify, by muscles or joint.

For example only,
Leading to impact, a SSC cycle of trunk muscles is used to rotate the upper body and a SSC of a shoulder muscle is used to accelerate the arm, etc.
Click to expand...
Greetings,

I do NOT fully understand your post.
Let me try to get a bit closer and explain what I understand and what I do NOT.
I agree about 3-5 miliseconds and mechanics behind SSC.
Say that SSC for a FOREARM lasts 40 miliseconds
(so I responded to your request to specify "by muscles or joint").
It is MUCH shorter that you suggest.
So it is a first difference between two of us.

Let me check whether a classic paper by Komi provides any numbers.
I will get back to you on this one today or tomorrow.
The signal can be respresented either by a square or exponential function.
Say that it is an exponential function of TIME.
Let say SSC starts 20 miliseconds BEFORE the CONTACT with a ball.
The maximum COULD be around the CONTACT point with a ball.
Am I proceeding a REASONABLE direction so far?

I can justify 40 seconds in couple of hours-I am on a court right now.
Julian W.Mielniczuk
PhD.
 
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Topspin Shot

Topspin Shot

Legend
Hi Julian. This is how I would teach the SSC (my post from a different thread).

Other posters have explained what the SSC is, so I'll stick to how I would teach someone to use it. I would first teach the proper swing path, getting the up, across, and through components down and making sure the loop stays on the right side of the body. I wouldn't really mention anything about the use of specific joints unless the player were doing something egregiously wrong. Once my player has the correct swing, I will then start drilling him relentlessly with hand feeds, essentially forcing him to generate his own power. I will tell him to focus on keeping his arm relaxed and whippy and to generate a lot of racket speed. If I have done my job in teaching the swing path, he will not make errors, and he will get enough topspin to keep the ball in the court with a good margin for error. Nearly always, he will find the SSC on his own.
Click to expand...

On most two handed backhands, the left arm is straight, and the right arm is bent in the contact zone. Does this answer your question?
 
peoplespeace

peoplespeace

Professional
julian said:
I am NOT sure whether you are correct in interpretation of the tape/video.
Please note that the quality of the tape/voice is bad.
I coach the way Djokovic does it and I do NOT see the problem you mentioned.
Click to expand...

Could u explain the reason for writing the two "not" in capital letters? Is the meaning different from if u had written them lowercase? Im JUST asking?

edit:just saw now that that is ur general writing style. Pls disregard.
 
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B

bhupaes

Professional
^^^ The link you've posted doesn't work, but I am assuming you are referring to the reference you have posted in http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7974454&postcount=35.

The supination of the left arm that Heath is referring to can be achieved by pointing the butt of the racquet at the ball, IMO. He is not talking about getting a stretch on the right shoulder, but the girl seems to be doing the right thing in the demo. I think the right shoulder stretch is important for the reason I mentioned in a previous post, and should be taught (also happens if chin rests on right shoulder at the completion of backswing). Finally, in Heath's instruction, the forward motion seems to be initiated by ISR and pronation of the left arm... IMHO, while that is a key movement, I would think that the forward motion should come from a push off the ground by the legs as the racquet is pulled towards the ball with both hands working together, and the ISR should happen as a result of hitting up and across. This makes the left hand the main contributor, but ensures that the right hand is there for more than just a ride.

Just my $0.02! :)
 
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