Should I snap my wrist for the windshield-wiper forehand?

tennismate29

tennismate29

New User
I watch vids on youtube on how to do the windshield wiper forehand and almost all of them says snap the wrist for more spin. I practice this kind of technique and after a while my forearm got strained from doing it. So should I really snap my wrist or what?

By the way, I am trying to switch from a flat forehand to a windshield wiper one. :)

Thanks for those who will enlighten me :)
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
The video you referenced is HORRIBLE. Stop following it immediately or you will A. hurt yourself, and B. have a terrible forehand.

See the blog below and scroll down thru all the stop sequence photos of Federer and Djoko hitting their FHs. Federer's arm and wrist set roughly into position as he starts the foreward part of the swing and there is very little change in the arm, elbow, forearm, or wrist up to and thru contact. The WW follow thru is obtained by forearm pronation and not a wrist snap. The wrist and forearm really make no sudden or snappy motions through out the entire swing.

Your hips should start the rotation and your core rotation should pull the arm into contact. Your wrist should lay back as your arm is pulled/starts foreward. Your wrist is loose and NO SNAPPING. Your rotation pulls the arm up, into and across the contact zone. The WW follow-thru is pronation and it you just let the swing flow and release into the WW follow-through. If anything, the WW/pronation of the forearm is to keep the strings facing the target longer and it actually reduces wrist movement.

Don't lock the wrist but you really shouldn't have to make any conscious decision to move the wrist near, during or after contact. Take a few shadow strokes using the method I described above with a goal of having the palm direct the ball.

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2013/02/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html
 
Sir Shankalot

Sir Shankalot

Rookie
tennismate29 said:
Following this gave me the forearm strain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I
Click to expand...

Generally coaches Mauro and Kyril are quite good but I have to tell you that I don't like this video. At all. The reason is that it relates to my own experience of learning tennis as an adult.

I started out just over 4 years ago, and spent a lot of time looking at instruction videos on YT. I don't recall seeing this one but I did look at a few that said basically the same thing. So I got it into my head that an *active* WW motion (actively pronating the forearm and bending the elbow) was somehow the golden key to topspin. Bad idea. After about a year of playing I developed some pain in my upper forearm, which I foolishly ignored, and in due course it developed into a full blown muscle tear in my elbow extensors. Not only did I have to take 6 months off tennis, also for a while I couldn't drive a car or lift anything heavier than a cup of coffee with my dominant arm. I'm lucky to have escaped the need for surgery.

After I finally came back to tennis I made some major changes to my technique as well as my equipment and as a result I have not suffered any injury since.

The reason I tell this story is as an illustration of the dangers of following internet / YT instruction without the benefit of feedback from a real live coach. The *only* thing you need to do to make top spin is make sure that you drop the racquet head a bit before contact, keep the racquet face vertical or ever so slightly closed, swing through and up, and then relax on your follow through. That's it. Some people spend way too much time analysing the micro details of strokes, and forget the difference between active movements (shoulder turn, push off the ground, swing low to high etc) and passive movements (eg a relaxed wrist will automatically lay back a bit and drop the racquet head, a relaxed arm will automatically make a WW motion on the follow through if the stance is neutral or open and the racquet head dropped enough prior to contact).

If you try and force what are in fact supposed to be passive movements then in some cases this can lead to a lot of problems. Not only tight, choppy strokes, but also injuries.

[/RANT]
 
tennis_balla

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
tennismate29 said:
Following this gave me the forearm strain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3GStYh_I
Click to expand...

Not once did they mention the word snap, however I can see where you're hurting yourself. Personally, I do not agree with how they describe the topspin forehand and would not teach it this way and know where you are getting confused. The way he's describing it makes it sound like you're getting all your power on the forehand from the wrist and elbow. I'm sure thats not what they meant, at least I hope not because this is not the case in real life. I find it interesting that hardly talked about other parts of the body such as your core which are just as important.

Think about this, when you throw a ball is your wrist active or passive? Active meaning you deliberately force the wrist to come throw forward or passive that it comes through by itself because of momentum? The forehand is no different.

Think of a baseball pitcher and how much he will rotate his hips and shoulders at the start, he'll start to open up, his arm will lag behind and then accelerate through. Here is an example...

baseball_pitching2.jpg

alex+maestri.jpg


The arm lagging behind like that after he's opened up is the same in tennis, here's Federer's example...

federer-forehand-inside-out.jpg


So what initiates it all, it sure as hell isn't the wrist and elbow. The part of your body that will allow you to hit across the ball in a "windshield wiper motion" (I hate that term haha) are your legs and hips because that is where the forehand starts, from the ground up. What your wrist does really is act like a control mechanism, meaning it controls the path of the racket such as how much under the ball the racket head will drop, how much you go over the ball etc but it does not really add any power. In my opinion its passive in that regard. You might need to use the wrist, elbow to power through in certain situations when you're out of position for example and don't have a choice but its not ideal.
 
Sir Shankalot

Sir Shankalot

Rookie
^^

OP, listen to Balla. He is a real coach and knows his stuff.

Here is a non-scientific observation for you. Look at the minor injuries on the ATP and WTA. You can see where the injuries from where the players are wearing Kinesio-Tape or other supports. The vast majority of injuries you see are in the lower body or mid-section, plus a few shoulder injuries. You hardly ever see injuries to the arm.
 
tennismate29

tennismate29

New User
tennis_balla said:
So what initiates it all, it sure as hell isn't the wrist and elbow. The part of your body that will allow you to hit across the ball in a "windshield wiper motion" (I hate that term haha) are your legs and hips because that is where the forehand starts, from the ground up. What your wrist does really is act like a control mechanism, meaning it controls the path of the racket such as how much under the ball the racket head will drop, how much you go over the ball etc but it does not really add any power. In my opinion its passive in that regard. You might need to use the wrist, elbow to power through in certain situations when you're out of position for example and don't have a choice but its not ideal.
Click to expand...

I will really try to change my forehand style and follow your tip. I think I'm good to go after a week. My forearm strain is feeling better now. But i am still afraid to overdo it so I'll still give it a week. Damn! I really hated laying off from tennis this long. I've been off for 4 weeks now just because of that forehand!

Thank you for this!:)
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
tennismate29 said:
This is great! I've been looking for a real instructional site that really tells you step by step on what's happening to a WW forehand :D

Thanks for sharing!:)
Click to expand...

You're welcome. I like the tennis speed blog too. There is a menu on the R side of the page with links to other comparisons. The Nadal and Federer side by side (maybe part 8?) is also a very good read. It is sometimes too detailed but all in all, I think it is fundamentally sound advice. It is amazing how much in common the pros have even when their swings look different in real time.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
tennismate29 said:
This is great! I've been looking for a real instructional site that really tells you step by step on what's happening to a WW forehand :D

Thanks for sharing!:)
Click to expand...

Just keep in mind as your read thu this (which does contain lots of good info) that he bases much of the info on very questionable conclusions. Imo it is ridiculous to compare the number of GS totals to try to decide what is the best Fh method. There is no doubt in my mind that if Nadal and Fed were playing with the bent arm or Flexion Fh, that nearly all the GSs titles would be with bent arm Fhs and quite possibly they would even be better players for it. Winning a Slam is way more about the total player talent than any one shot. Players who win Slams are loaded with skill in nearly every main stroke.

It's a lot to read thru, so sorry if I misread it, but he seems to call the bent arm Fh sub-optimal. This is quite ridiculous like his article on serve speeds. As I've stated on here before...all the big Fh records I've seen 124mph and over have been bent arm Fhs. Also, as a bent arm Fh player, I use the straight arm Fh as well as do most bent arm (flexion Fh) players imo. So to me, the bent arm Fh enjoys the benefits of both and uses what works best to receive the incoming ball.
 
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Sir Shankalot

Sir Shankalot

Rookie
tennismate29 said:
This is great! I've been looking for a real instructional site that really tells you step by step on what's happening to a WW forehand :D

Thanks for sharing!:)
Click to expand...

OP, the tennis speed blog is very interesting but I'm not convinced it is so good as an instructional site. You don't need to do a full biomechanical analysis to hit a ball, any more than you need a PhD in the thermodynamics of a combustion engine to drive a car.

An alternative approach, if you want to learn online, is to adopt a more "feel based" method. Tomaz Mencinger's site, Feeltennis, is brilliant. You hardly ever hear him talking about pronation, supination, ulnar deviation, bloviation, etc. Instead he emphasises a few key fundamentals and talks about how a shot is supposed to feel, and trusts that your body will figure it out for itself.
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
While I like much of Kevin G's instruction, I think he really misses the boat on the WW Fh. Imo the thing he teaches to do in place of the WW is much more like a proper WW and the door knob turning method that he calls a WW is just bad technique mistaken for the ww.
Click to expand...

So you think he misses the boat because he teaches the correct form and calls the incorrect form a myth? Huh?

We should all be so lucky has to hit a forehand like Kevin G. This is what my pro teaches pretty much as well. There isn't a lot of conscious wrist manipulation on the forehand (though there is some relaxation on the end). Just swing through and across the ball with the top edge leading slightly like Kevin G. explains. The tennis speed blog overcomplicates things but the general idea of really swing through with a slightly closed racquet face is correct.

Overuse of the forearm muscles will give you tennis elbow..some pros teach some forearm use to teach people the feel but it can lead to trouble..because stronger players can hit forehands this way.. and totally rely on the forearm muscles.
 
tennismate29

tennismate29

New User
Sir Shankalot said:
An alternative approach, if you want to learn online, is to adopt a more "feel based" method. Tomaz Mencinger's site, Feeltennis, is brilliant. You hardly ever hear him talking about pronation, supination, ulnar deviation, bloviation, etc. Instead he emphasises a few key fundamentals and talks about how a shot is supposed to feel, and trusts that your body will figure it out for itself.
Click to expand...


I am checking the site too, It's great to have lots of references from people who really know this stuff than relying on random videos youtube throws at me. Thanks!
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
The rotation on the windshield wiper is driven mainly by the rotation of the upper arm from the shoulder. You can think about turning your hand over, but the motion is unitary. Upper arm, forearm, hand and racket.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
GuyClinch said:
So you think he misses the boat because he teaches the correct form and calls the incorrect form a myth? Huh?
Click to expand...
Sorry, but he didn't do that. He says the ww is just a spinny ball without much punch and for hitting lobs and real short angles. THen he goes on to how to hit the Fh, but he does't refer to that Fh as the ww.

Now I'm not saying you can't hit tight angles and TS lobs with the WW Fh, but my point is that the main purpose of a Proper WW Fh is to attack the ball with driving penetration on a lower trajectory, but while still getting major league spin on the shot. My contention is that Kevin G is mistaken about the main purpose of the WW Fh based on his comments in the vid.

I do agree he hits an nice Fh that we could all be very proud of :), but no reason that makes him correct about the WW Fh's primary purpose. You are free to disagree with me as he does in the vid.
 
T

toly

Hall of Fame
tennismate29 said:
I watch vids on youtube on how to do the windshield wiper forehand and almost all of them says snap the wrist for more spin. I practice this kind of technique and after a while my forearm got strained from doing it. So should I really snap my wrist or what?
By the way, I am trying to switch from a flat forehand to a windshield wiper one. :)
Thanks for those who will enlighten me :)
Click to expand...
Djokovic demonstrates huge wrist snap http://youtu.be/DDTejFXJFok. Nevertheless, he uses hand/wrist actions to increase ball speed, not spin. :shock:
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
tennismate29 said:
I watch vids on youtube on how to do the windshield wiper forehand and almost all of them says snap the wrist for more spin. I practice this kind of technique and after a while my forearm got strained from doing it. So should I really snap my wrist or what?

By the way, I am trying to switch from a flat forehand to a windshield wiper one. :)

Thanks for those who will enlighten me :)
Click to expand...

the conventional teaching is to keep the wrist at 90 degrees and use pronation and some ISR to turn over the racket.

however guys like fed and nadal seems to have some unhinging of the wrist (they have way more than 90 degrees at max lag and then maybe like 45 to 90 degrees at contact). however I still wouldn't call that wrist snap and it is nothing I would recommend to a beginner.
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
That is an excellent graphic of Djokovic, Toly, and right on point.

I think it's an unhinging of the wrist, not a conscious snap. I think it's 'djokovic's wrist is snapped' not 'djokovic snaps his wrist. passive.
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
NO wrist snap.
The wrist is laid back from the loop backswing, then a relaxed wrist will naturally straighten out a bit, and even go beyond straight, to what LOOKS like wrist snap, but it's from the laid back wrist from the loop backswing, not the forearm muscles.
Remember, we're hitting relaxed forearms. RELAXED means there is no tension, or little tension to hold the grip, so the wrist is the FLEX joint, not controlled by muscles or thought.
 
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T

toly

Hall of Fame
LeeD said:
NO wrist snap.
The wrist is laid back from the loop backswing, then a relaxed wrist will naturally straighten out a bit, and even go beyond straight, to what LOOKS like wrist snap, but it's from the laid back wrist from the loop backswing, not the forearm muscles.
Remember, we're hitting relaxed forearms. RELAXED means there is no tension, or little tension to hold the grip, so the wrist is the FLEX joint, not controlled by muscles or thought.
Click to expand...

This is Adam Kennedy forehand.

Adam-Kennedy-Forehand_zps4351ba88.gif


He is able to slow down “passive” wrist snap compare to Djokovic example due to active resistance of corresponding arm muscles. Can you say what his particular muscles are relaxed in these pictures?
 
T

toly

Hall of Fame
Next is Nalbandian.

Nalbandian-TS-WW-Forhand-Videi-hitechtennis_zps9eeb2406.gif


He is running forward inside of service box. The ball is relatively low, so he mostly interested in topspin and hits rather slow ball with a lot of spin to keep it in. His hand/wrist practically doesn’t move forward near and after contact that’s why racquet strings bed is parallel to his chest. This is example of “classic” WW forehand. Adam Kennedy also applies this technique.
Djokovic hits powerful forehand with forearm pronation and his hand moves the racquet forward actively and very fast. The racquet after impact is completely closed, so his technique has absolutely nothing to do with WW forehand.
 
tennismate29

tennismate29

New User
With all the pics, now i see what's wrong with my WW forehand, I think I am controlling my forearm too consciously which ends up with me using my forearm and not my body core as my source of power to hit a forehand.

The GIFs were cool :) I really saw how their body rotates every time the racket hits the ball. :)
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Is a windshield wiper forehand lower percentage when you're hitting DTL?
(have been thinking about this video last 2 days)

 
mad dog1

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
Is a windshield wiper forehand lower percentage when you're hitting DTL?
(have been thinking about this video last 2 days)

Click to expand...
If you know how to hit a forehand with good topspin, yes, it’s lower % but not by much.
 
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mad dog1

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
I thought I did but never paid attention to this W wiper thing. Now I feel I might have missed something important.
Click to expand...
I sense you’re heading down another rabbit hole. When you hit a topspin forehand with the right technique the WW motion happens automatically. You don’t consciously try to swing the racquet in a WW path.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
mad dog1 said:
When you hit a topspin forehand with the right technique the WW motion happens automatically. You don’t consciously try to swing the racquet in a WW path.
Click to expand...
But isn't there a difference between a more linear/extension type forward swing and a real W wiper one?
Look at this great example.

 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
mad dog1 said:
Yes, there is. I was referring to the modern topspin forehand in my post.
Click to expand...
I always thought swinging up and fast is what gives the topspin. I neglected the impact of swinging across the body and finishing lowish around the left hip ie windshield wiper motion.
 
FiReFTW

FiReFTW

Legend
Curious said:
I always thought swinging up and fast is what gives the topspin. I neglected the impact of swinging across the body and finishing lowish around the left hip ie windshield wiper motion.
Click to expand...

The lower u finish the lower the arc, but yeah you can get alot of spin even on very low straight arc shots.
Usually you tend to hit lower arcs with a ton of spin when you have short balls, because you need alot of spin to not hit too deep because ur close to the net amd have a shorter distance.
 
vex

vex

Legend
For what its worth, I had a rock steady backhand and an unforced error machine of a FH. My BH was a machine modeled off Djokovic. FH was total garbage. I was hitting with wrist snap and forearm pronation at contact. Angle at contact was constantly off resulting in terrible launch angles. Utter trainwreck.

Recently I stopped trying to fire my wrist/forearm and instead keep the wrist relaxed and focus on swinging low to high thru contact with my angle really dialed in. Its been night and day. I went from trash to pushing 30+ ball rallies with my 4.0 friends overnight. Now I just need to carry it over into real matches.
 
vex

vex

Legend
LeeD said:
NO wrist snap.
The wrist is laid back from the loop backswing, then a relaxed wrist will naturally straighten out a bit, and even go beyond straight, to what LOOKS like wrist snap, but it's from the laid back wrist from the loop backswing, not the forearm muscles.
Remember, we're hitting relaxed forearms. RELAXED means there is no tension, or little tension to hold the grip, so the wrist is the FLEX joint, not controlled by muscles or thought.
Click to expand...
THIS. SO MUCH THIS ^^^^
 
vex

vex

Legend
Curious said:
I thought I did but never paid attention to this W wiper thing. Now I feel I might have missed something important.
Click to expand...
No No No. Please No. The WW part of the swing occurs after the ball is already gone from your racket NOT before. WW is just the natural FOLLOW THRU from a good swing. Don't try to WW swipe the ball at contact. You'll be setting yourself back years. I wasted literally 2 years learning this the hard way. Dont be me back here in 2 years asking why your FH is launching out of the court or into the net every other shot.

Just swing low to high, get your contact angle correct for the right launch height. The trick is to balance how much you swing upwards vs how much you plow thru the ball. This determines how much pace you'll hit with. The TS will come naturally if you are swinging low to high as the strings brush up the ball with your wrist relaxed.

Please do not try to swipe a WW turn at contact. Not everyone can be Jack Sock. And even Sock screws it up often.

Low to High. Get the right racketface angle for the ball you're hitting and net clearance you want. Balance upward swing vs plow thru. WW is merely your relaxed arm following thru AFTER contact has come and gone.
 
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