Low Friction Poly X's For Gut Mains : Softer Alternative to MSV Co-Focus?

ChicagoJack · Apr 14, 2014

^^ Aha yes, that makes sense. And I was wondering if you meant Gosen Sidewinder 17 not Gosen Polymaster. I think that's a great plan. The only downside (for me anyways) to demoing strings one frame at a time is I never fully trust that my memory of a string from 3 months ago or a year ago is accurate. I'd rather have one big string tournament, string all of my frames at once, figure it out, and and be done with it for a good long time. But I understand this isn't practical for lots of players.

Maui19 · Apr 15, 2014

You guys are leading me into temptation!

I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.

LOL

DrewRafter8 · Apr 15, 2014

Jack,

Did you pre-stretch the ZX when you used it in a full bed?

corners · Apr 15, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
^^ Aha yes, that makes sense. And I was wondering if you meant Gosen Sidewinder 17 not Gosen Polymaster. I think that's a great plan. The only downside (for me anyways) to demoing strings one frame at a time is I never fully trust that my memory of a string from 3 months ago or a year ago is accurate. I'd rather have one big string tournament, string all of my frames at once, figure it out, and and be done with it for a good long time. But I understand this isn't practical for lots of players.

Jack's method seems ideal and perfectly in keeping with Nate Ferguson(stringer of Fed, Djoker, Murray et al.)'s maxim of "only change one variable at a time" when testing new equipment. I'm trying to pick a new racquet and so am resisting the temptation to test strings until I've picked that racquet and acquired multiple matched frames.

One other thing about the inter-string COF data: the tests are all performed when the strings are new, so they don't really distinguish between a string's inherent surface characteristics (smoothness, hardness, slipperiness) and any slick or greasy coating that's applied to make stringing easier. We can assume that a copoly that has a low inter-string COF is indeed slippery, but we don't know for sure that it will stay as slippery as that after being played with for awhile. One exception is that the TW Professor has said that gut/copoly has a tendency toward reduced inter-string friction as it ages. As far as we know, this is the only string or string combination that does this.

I think the blind playtests at USRSA are good to cross-reference with the COF data. If a string has a low COF and also gets high marks for "string movement" and "spin" in the blind USRSA playtest we can be pretty sure it's truly a slick and slippery string and behaves that way for most, if not all, of its life. The rub is that USRSA only tests about 6-8 strings/year, so the sample of strings to choose from in this way is limited. But then we've got guys on this message board like Chicago Jack, Mikeler, Torres, PVAudio, et al. that have play tested tons of strings and combos, which kind of rounds out the knowledge base we have on this geekiest of tennis subjects.

ChicagoJack · Apr 15, 2014

DrewRafter8 said:
Jack,

Did you pre-stretch the ZX when you used it in a full bed?

Oh, Hi Drew long time no see. Nope, no pre-stretching on any of these recent play tests, but it's likely that pre-stretching will become standard operating procedure for Zx in the future.

I stayed away from the practice because I was operating on an completely plausible idea that it would make (polyester) string stiffer, by depleting the limited cache of inherent elasticity. Turns out that idea which many of us held as true has very little supporting evidence.

The March-April 2013 studies on string death indicate that pre-stretching actually increases comfort, increases energy return, and improves tension maintenance. Couple that with TravlrAJm's success with pre strectching Zx, I'm seeing very little downside. I still want to test it out mind you, but at this point I'm fairly enthusiastic about Zx getting even better than it already is.

-J

ChicagoJack · Apr 15, 2014

Maui19 said:
You guys are leading me into temptation!

I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.
I am very happy with my current setup.

LOL

Can I pray with you my Brother?

I shall not demo Fairway Leather Grips.
I shall not demo The Technifiber TFight 315 Ltd. 16x19
I shall not demo The Pacific XFeel Tour
I shall not demo The Prince 100T ESP

I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet...

Amen.

-J

SpinToWin · Apr 15, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
Can I pray with you my Brother?

I shall not demo Fairway Leather Grips.
I shall not demo The Technifiber TFight 315 Ltd. 16x19
I shall not demo The Pacific XFeel Tour
I shall not demo The Prince 100T ESP

I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet, I love my racquet...

Amen.

-J

By God this should become standard procedure on this forum…
I can never say no when I see an interesting racquet, I've now got six and I'm probably getting my seventh (4 different racquet models) soon, since a friend of mine has offered me a BLX Six.One Tour for 50€ :lol:

EpitomeOfAwesome · Apr 16, 2014

Maybe stiff is better for poly crosses?

After sitting out 45 days without playing a match, just 5-6 ball machine hits, only 1 with my new Klip Legend natgut mains(57) and Pro Line II crosses(53), I played 2 sets of doubles.

Must say all my enthusiasm evaporated. The ball machine practice felt very good 4 days ago, but today the control was awful. Balls that I barely touched were flying long.

I will attribute some of my poor play for sitting out a month and a half and some for having to adjust to nat gut.
However, when I had time to take a big swing and impart topspin, I hit good shots. When my reaction on baseline were slow or I didn't have time for a good swing, the balls were flying.

I don't know if it was because the Pro Line II crosses lost too much tension or if the stringbed is not stiff enough for my skill level to get good control.

I read the stiffness articles on TWU which conclude that stiffer beds give better control while sacrificing comfort. Considering going with Head Hawk 17 for crosses next time. They are a little stiffer, and lose less tension than Pro Line II. Bonus is low COF. I was initially thinking of trying out the softer options like CyberBlue or Gosen Sidewinder.

yangster007 · Apr 17, 2014

I use the cheapest of them all, Pro's Pro Red Devil, second softest poly I've ever used, after Polystar Energy. Both are softer than MSV co-focus I think.

henman_fan · Apr 17, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
Oh, Hi Drew long time no see. Nope, no pre-stretching on any of these recent play tests, but it's likely that pre-stretching will become standard operating procedure for Zx in the future.

I stayed away from the practice because I was operating on an completely plausible idea that it would make (polyester) string stiffer, by depleting the limited cache of inherent elasticity. Turns out that idea which many of us held as true has very little supporting evidence.

The March-April 2013 studies on string death indicate that pre-stretching actually increases comfort, increases energy return, and improves tension maintenance. Couple that with TravlrAJm's success with pre strectching Zx, I'm seeing very little downside. I still want to test it out mind you, but at this point I'm fairly enthusiastic about Zx getting even better than it already is.

-J

I've read those papers too. Pre-stretching increases stiffness. I thought this decreases comfort? See this thread for a discussion I'm having with TW Professor on a possible negative of pre-stretching strings. - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=496247 Otherwise, I can't think of any negatives.

ChicagoJack · Apr 17, 2014

henman_fan said:
I've read those papers too. Pre-stretching increases stiffness. I thought this decreases comfort? See this thread for a discussion I'm having with TW Professor on a possible negative of pre-stretching strings. - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=496247 Otherwise, I can't think of any negatives.

Thanks Henman_fan. Here's a pretty unambiguous quote from TW Professor :

Quote : During a tennis hit there is very little energy loss. Upon repeated impacts, energy loss increases slightly as tension declines, stretch increases, and dwell time is increased. For normal ranges of play, only 1-3 mph difference might be expected in ball velocity as the string's energy return decreases.The polyester string tested had a significant energy return even when the tension was set to zero. The inherent stiffness of the string was enough to maintain string length and resiliency.

Prestretching has a significant influence on energy return. Prestretching increases stiffness and energy return while decreasing deflection and dwell time. This is because the previous stretches realign the polymer chains in the axial direction, removing some of the viscous play normally evident in the unfolding and sliding of chains. Although the decrease in energy return doesn not affect ball velocity much, it probably amplifies the effect of increasing friction between strings. Lateral movement of the mains is inhibited by the increased friction and the decreased energy available to overcome that friction. The combined effect is what players experience as the increased stiffness and decreased response of the stringbed. "

-- How Strings Go dead Part 2
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/deadstringsPart2.php

My bit of hyperbole was generated with the increasing energy return in mind. But that's an improper standard for comfort because energy return is measured by things (steel test hammer in this case) that don't compress on impact. I'll read that link when I get a chance. Thanks again.

-J

JT_2eighty · Apr 21, 2014

Given the same tension, prestretching increases stiffness, which is going to decrease comfort. Energy return doesn't have much to do with comfort, since both Gut and stiff polys like 4G all have higher energy returns, but not similar comfort at all.

Some of the softest polys (polystar turbo, energy and polyfibre stuff), have very very low energy return.

Dwell time is probably going to tell you more about comfort than energy return, but stiffness is still your main attribute.

If looking for pure comfort, look to low stiffness then high dwell time. I use those two when I would try new strings and they always would lead me to softer polys.

If pre-stretch increases stiffness and decreases dwell time, it's obvious comfort will be lost too (if you use the same reference tension).

jbm · Apr 22, 2014

I am trying Wilson Natural gut 17g in the main with Ashaway monogut zyex 17g in the cross. I am 4 hours in and I have a few initial thoughts. I am playing with the 6.1 95 s and the 17 g was probably not a good idea. The mains look like they are about to break. No fraying, but pretty significant notching. Also, while on paper, this is a fairly soft setup strung at 56/55, it sounds tight and tingy. It was not harsh on my shoulder like Champions choice was, but the feel and sound do take some getting use to.

Bottom line I played really well in 4.5 singles and doubles matches. Next I will try Pacific Prime or Tough 16 g with monogut zyex 16 g.

drak · Apr 22, 2014

jbm said:
I am trying Wilson Natural gut 17g in the main with Ashaway monogut zyex 17g in the cross. I am 4 hours in and I have a few initial thoughts. I am playing with the 6.1 95 s and the 17 g was probably not a good idea. The mains look like they are about to break. No fraying, but pretty significant notching. Also, while on paper, this is a fairly soft setup strung at 56/55, it sounds tight and tingy. It was not harsh on my shoulder like Champions choice was, but the feel and sound do take some getting use to.

Bottom line I played really well in 4.5 singles and doubles matches. Next I will try Pacific Prime or Tough 16 g with monogut zyex 16 g.

I would also suggest trying "Ramon's" rig from this thread - he uses Monogut Zyex 16 mains with a Gamma marathon 1.40 cross in a spin frame - he likes the playability and good wear. I would think the 1.32 Gamma Marathon cross gauge would be adequate for most.

pennc94 · Apr 22, 2014

jbm said:
I am trying Wilson Natural gut 17g in the main with Ashaway monogut zyex 17g in the cross. I am 4 hours in and I have a few initial thoughts. I am playing with the 6.1 95 s and the 17 g was probably not a good idea. The mains look like they are about to break. No fraying, but pretty significant notching. Also, while on paper, this is a fairly soft setup strung at 56/55, it sounds tight and tingy. It was not harsh on my shoulder like Champions choice was, but the feel and sound do take some getting use to.

Bottom line I played really well in 4.5 singles and doubles matches. Next I will try Pacific Prime or Tough 16 g with monogut zyex 16 g.

That ting sound is not the gut. It's the ZX. The feel of that string is very metallic. It will not change with different gut.

Bud · Apr 22, 2014

Good thread

jbm · Apr 23, 2014

pennc94 said:
That ting sound is not the gut. It's the ZX. The feel of that string is very metallic. It will not change with different gut.

Understood. Getting away from poly cross for comfort reasons. So far the zyex appears to be more comfortable even though it doesn't sound like it would be. I do not find that the zyex is as slick as a poly cross. Might it get more slick with more play?

SpinToWin · Apr 23, 2014

jbm said:
Understood. Getting away from poly cross for comfort reasons. So far the zyex appears to be more comfortable even though it doesn't sound like it would be. I do not find that the zyex is as slick as a poly cross. Might it get more slick with more play?

unlikely… As an alternative, a polyester that is very, and I mean extremely soft, is Poly Star Energy. It will be more slick, but not much stiffer. You could give it a try if you don't like zyex after extended play. The price is also good.

TennisManiac · Apr 23, 2014

SpinToWin

SpinToWin, I see you customize your Head Youtek Prestige Pros. I too customize my Prestige Pro's. I was wondering what you do to yours and why? I tried to send you a message but I see you don't accept them.

ChicagoJack · Apr 23, 2014

jbm said:
Understood. Getting away from poly cross for comfort reasons. So far the zyex appears to be more comfortable even though it doesn't sound like it would be. I do not find that the zyex is as slick as a poly cross. Might it get more slick with more play?

SpinToWin said:
unlikely… As an alternative, a polyester that is very, and I mean extremely soft, is Poly Star Energy. It will be more slick, but not much stiffer. You could give it a try if you don't like zyex after extended play. The price is also good.

Hi SpinToWin - Hmm, are you saying that you don't agree with the available bench testing digits for zyex stiffness and COF vs Polystar Energy stiffness and COF? That's cool if you are, I'd just like to know where that assessment is coming from. Stiffness of ZX (at 62lbs fast swing) is 118.3 and 0.088 COF. The three diameters of Polystar Energy are at 217, 231, and 232 for stiffness.

I would never have guessed the stiffness digits for Zx were in the gGut neighborhood, and the impact sound has much to do with my initial confusion. But my experience is that experience is that Zx is much more comfortable than any other Poly I've tried by a wide margin. The other thing to note is that as gut mains age, natural oils will lubricate the smooth crosses. As far as we know this is the only combination that has the potential to get slicker as it ages.

-J

SpinToWin · Apr 23, 2014

***********c said:
SpinToWin, I see you customize your Head Youtek Prestige Pros. I too customize my Prestige Pro's. I was wondering what you do to yours and why? I tried to send you a message but I see you don't accept them.

oh I don't accept messages? Must have forgotten to allow that

will change that now thanks for pointing it out

I add 6 g of lead total at 3/9, then lead at 12 and around the buttcap. I don't quite remember how much it was… I think it was 13g at 12 and 14g around the buttcap… I was trying out extensively so I don't quite remember which exact setup I stuck with… I have a note where I recorded my customizations somewhere… When I find it I'll send you a message

And should you need feedback on different customizations with the racquet, I'll be glad to help.
Sorry for derailing the thread guys! Won't happen again

SpinToWin · Apr 23, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
Hi SpinToWin - Hmm, are you saying that you don't agree with the available bench testing digits for zyex stiffness and COF vs Polystar Energy stiffness and COF? That's cool if you are, I'd just like to know where that assessment is coming from. -J

By no means am I doubting data, I just find that with hybrids, especially those with gut, a few factors beyond COF play a role. Otherwise, we could have a very slick multifilament in the crosses and gut would slide on them like it does on a poly, but that does not happen. I believe it has to do with the difference in the 'softness' of the strings. If the main string is much softer, the spin will be enhanced. Of course, a low COF will also help. Zyex is pretty soft, so I believe that there may be a loss of string snapback due to this when comparing it to a conventional gut/poly hybrid.

My main point however was that zyex is a very individual and unique string and while some may really appreciate its traits, others might find it weird. Conventional gut/poly hybrids play more… Conventionally (for lack of a better term). Therefore, a 'normal' gut/poly hybrid may remove the dislikes jbm mentioned. Of all polys I have played, beyond data, Poly Star Energy (and Touch) plays the softest. It is so powerful that you do not feel the stiffness at all IMO. I have played multis that were less comfortable than PSE.

ChicagoJack · Apr 23, 2014

^^ have you played with Zx?

JT_2eighty · Apr 23, 2014

Agree about PS Energy. I have tried so many polys and Energy defies the standard poly feel. When looking "at the numbers" I suppose part of PS Energy's softness could be attributed to its massive tension loss.

Even so, when stringing PS Energy, one learns it is EXTREMELY elastic as you pull tension. Also, when bending it in your hand, it is very *gummy* like no other soft poly. All these factors combined make it not only a very soft poly, but very different from other soft polys (note it ranks among the longest 'dwell time' strings on the TWU database as well).

Anyhow, while I think the numbers are a good guide, sometimes there are strings that play a lot differently than the database would suggest.

I've actually used gut/Energy (and it was in my YTPP non-IG) and it is a very spin-friendly setup. Very soft and in the end, too powerful for my tastes. I've tried a ton of various gut/polys, and gut/Energy was among the top for power and comfort, and also huge spin.

Another good one with similar spin and comfort, gut/MB. This one has better tension stability and control.

I'm hoping to try out ZX soon... Wasn't there a remark in one of the various zx threads that the red version is more slick than the beige?

SpinToWin · Apr 23, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
^^ have you played with Zx?

unfortunately, I cannot get it over here in Germany

I am combining hearsay from others with my experience using (relatively) softer strings in the crosses. The most spin I have gotten came from one of the stiffest strings being in the crosses. If anybody has played both setups and disagrees with my analysis, I'll be glad to change my view.

By the way, I didn't intend to make spin a main argument as it can be subjective; I didn't express myself well enough in my first comment, apologies for that.

epicondylitis · Apr 23, 2014

Tried Volkyl Fusion (gut main, poly cross) in my Wilson Steam 105S at 60/58. Exactly what i was looking for in terms of power/control/spin/comfort. Lasted for 4 sets of singles and 5 sets of doubles over 3 days. I give up

Yesterday, I noticed the ball was flying everywhere. Sure enough, if I pinched the center 2 mains together they would barely move back apart. Checked the DT, which was initially 36, now 31. Center mains tension at 50#!!!

Am I destined to restring every other day? Is the gut used in Fusion too cheap (low tension maint)?

JT_2eighty · Apr 23, 2014

^^ yes, most people note that Klip gut does not hold as well as others (volkl gut is made by klip).

Also could be the tension for that racquet, you may want to start a few pounds higher so it settles in better.

Lastly, also the crosses are important, and in a "Spin effect" racquet, the strings will go downhill faster.

I've found that thicker crosses keep your mains snapping back over time better. Also, adding a few pounds to your crosses help keep everything in place for longer too.

But yes, gut/poly is not always a long-lasting setup, unless you experiment with a few different types and tensions to get a setup that will break-in to where you like it over time.

So many factors; i.e. type of racquet, string gauge, etc, will affect the longevity.

SpinToWin · Apr 23, 2014

epicondylitis said:
Tried Volkyl Fusion (gut main, poly cross) in my Wilson Steam 105S at 60/58. Exactly what i was looking for in terms of power/control/spin/comfort. Lasted for 4 sets of singles and 5 sets of doubles over 3 days. I give up

Yesterday, I noticed the ball was flying everywhere. Sure enough, if I pinched the center 2 mains together they would barely move back apart. Checked the DT, which was initially 36, now 31. Center mains tension at 50#!!!

Am I destined to restring every other day? Is the gut used in Fusion too cheap (low tension maint)?

Give a very thick gut (1.35 or 1.40) with a coating a try. This will give the gut more control and durability in your super open string pattern (Babolat Tonic + Longevity for example). Also, you could use crosses with better tension maintenance. Judging by Head Hawk 17's great tension maintenance, Head Hawk 16 should be amazing. I've also heard good things about Tourna Black Zone.

epicondylitis · Apr 24, 2014

It seems that the more the mains are allowed (encouraged) to move, the shorter the lifespan. I suppose this makes sense, but I was really hoping gut mains was the answer. Nothing seems to beat a full bed of 4G in these racquets in terms of performance, but every off center or late hit is like a bomb going off in my forearm/elbow. And multiply that by 2 after 4 of hours
of play.

I did use Tonic and Hurricane in my 99LS and it seems to be holding up well. Put some Prime/MB in the 105 last night and upped the tension on both to 62. We shall see. I play 6 days a week, and if I could find a combination that lasts one week, I would be happy...

I tie off the crosses to themselves so that they can be replaced without disturbing the gut mains, thinking the gut would outlast the poly (dead). But th3e mains were so sloppy on this last test I didnt see the point.

epicondylitis · Apr 24, 2014

SpinToWin said:
Give a very thick gut (1.35 or 1.40) with a coating a try. This will give the gut more control and durability in your super open string pattern (Babolat Tonic + Longevity for example). Also, you could use crosses with better tension maintenance. Judging by Head Hawk 17's great tension maintenance, Head Hawk 16 should be amazing. I've also heard good things about Tourna Black Zone.

Do those poly's have better tension maintenance than 4G?

SpinToWin · Apr 24, 2014

epicondylitis said:
Do those poly's have better tension maintenance than 4G?

Hawk should be around the same if I remember correctly… Use the TWU string database to check. Luxilon strings in general though have a short playability duration and 4G becomes stiff as a board for me after a while, which means frequent restringing (at the price, a no-go for me). Black Zone will be slightly less good at tension maintenance, but it is at 1/2 the price of hawk and 1/3 the price of 4G. You can restring the crosses once the stringed begins launching, or simply string a bit higher to begin with.

ChicagoJack · Apr 24, 2014

epicondylitis said:
It seems that the more the mains are allowed (encouraged) to move, the shorter the lifespan. I suppose this makes sense, but I was really hoping gut mains was the answer. Nothing seems to beat a full bed of 4G in these racquets in terms of performance, but every off center or late hit is like a bomb going off in my forearm/elbow. And multiply that by 2 after 4 of hours of play. I did use Tonic and Hurricane in my 99LS and it seems to be holding up well. Put some Prime/MB in the 105 last night and upped the tension on both to 62. We shall see. I play 6 days a week, and if I could find a combination that lasts one week, I would be happy...

epicondylitis said:
Do those poly's have better tension maintenance than 4G?

SpinToWin said:
Hawk should be around the same if I remember correctly… Use the TWU string database to check. Luxilon strings in general though have a short playability duration and 4G becomes stiff as a board for me after a while, which means frequent restringing (at the price, a no-go for me). Black Zone will be slightly less good at tension maintenance, but it is at 1/2 the price of hawk and 1/3 the price of 4G. You can restring the crosses once the stringed begins launching, or simply string a bit higher to begin with.

Hi epicondylitis -

1. One could make a reasonable argument that the TWU testing creates abnormal impact situations (steel hammers) which create tension loss digits that are more accelerated than one might experience in actual court time. But comparing the tension loss of one string to another on this level playing field isn't something we have to wonder about. Hawk is well above average in terms of tension maintenance for poly, but TWU bench testing indicates Head Hawk has roughly double the tension loss of 4G. Screening for 62 lbs, and fast swing, you will see 9.9 lbs loss for 4G, and 17.4 lbs loss for Hawk. http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/reporter.php

2. If you are looking for low friction, spin friendly, arm friendly with decent tension maintenance, welcome to the club! that's what this thread is about. You may have missed it, but I have already triple cross referenced stiffness, COF and tension loss, and have listed the most promising demo candidates on the first page. The lab is not the court, but these digits might be useful in helping to determine a short list of demo options from which to choose from. If you want to stick with poly Xs, I would recco 1. Gosen Sidewinder, 2. WC Mosquito Bite 18, or 3. Yonex Poly Pro Tour. I'm finding that Zx crosses are far more comfortable than any of my 3 favorite poly X's mentioned and still very spin friendly.

3. I don't have experience with playing gut mains in extremely open patterns. But I can tell you that brand, price, gauge, and tension matter. I'm playing with a typical 16x19 pattern and getting 20-30 very good hours from Gut/poly Gut/Zx. In the 5-6 years I've switched to gut hybrids, I've never snapped a set of Babolat Tonic 15L, or Wilson 16, I restring when tension loss and increasing friction become apparent. I've had premature snaps (in the bag) with cheaper gut offerings from Klip, Pacific and Global. I prefer gut in the higher tension range (60-62) rather than the mid 50's as I will get a few more hours out of it before the whole bed goes loosey goosey. The unique thing about gut, is that it's elasticity allows it to stay very comfy at hi tensions.

-J

jbm · Apr 24, 2014

I've had premature snaps (in the bag) with cheaper gut offerings from Klip said:
Chicagojack
I have been playing Wilson gut at 57 lbs, and am going to try Pacific prime. Any thoughts on changing tension of Pacific Prime to be similar to Wilson. Only reason I am changing is that pacific is listed at 41 feet which helps me with an 18 main string job. Thanks.

ChicagoJack · Apr 24, 2014

jbm said:
Chicagojack
I have been playing Wilson gut at 57 lbs, and am going to try Pacific prime. Any thoughts on changing tension of Pacific Prime to be similar to Wilson. Only reason I am changing is that pacific is listed at 41 feet which helps me with an 18 main string job. Thanks.

Hi JBM -

I've always wanted to try it, but I'm unqualified to comment on Pacific Prime. I'm sure that Rabbit can. Here is his thread. http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=491221

-J

JT_2eighty · Apr 24, 2014

jbm said:
I have been playing Wilson gut at 57 lbs, and am going to try Pacific prime. Any thoughts on changing tension of Pacific Prime to be similar to Wilson. Only reason I am changing is that pacific is listed at 41 feet which helps me with an 18 main string job. Thanks.

I've compared Prime 16 to Wilson 16. Currently these are definitely the softest guts on the market, period.

So, in that sense they are similar, and you can string them the same for about the same playability.

Like chicagoJack said, gut at 60-62 is a great tension and it is still very soft. You should try it out at 60, and this may help keep a good level of control for a bit longer than your last playtest.

(edit: just noticed you did it at 62, so that is great!)

epicondylitis · Apr 24, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
Hi epicondylitis -

1. One could make a reasonable argument that the TWU testing creates abnormal impact situations (steel hammers) which create tension loss digits that are more accelerated than one might experience in actual court time. But comparing the tension loss of one string to another on this level playing field isn't something we have to wonder about. Hawk is well above average in terms of tension maintenance for poly, but TWU bench testing indicates Head Hawk has roughly double the tension loss of 4G. Screening for 62 lbs, and fast swing, you will see 9.9 lbs loss for 4G, and 17.4 lbs loss for Hawk. http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/reporter.php

2. If you are looking for low friction, spin friendly, arm friendly with decent tension maintenance, welcome to the club! that's what this thread is about. You may have missed it, but I have already triple cross referenced stiffness, COF and tension loss, and have listed the most promising demo candidates on the first page. The lab is not the court, but these digits might be useful in helping to determine a short list of demo options from which to choose from. If you want to stick with poly Xs, I would recco 1. Gosen Sidewinder, 2. WC Mosquito Bite 18, or 3. Yonex Poly Pro Tour. I'm finding that Zx crosses are far more comfortable than any of my 3 favorite poly X's mentioned and still very spin friendly.

3. I don't have experience with playing gut mains in extremely open patterns. But I can tell you that brand, price, gauge, and tension matter. I'm playing with a typical 16x19 pattern and getting 20-30 very good hours from Gut/poly Gut/Zx. In the 5-6 years I've switched to gut hybrids, I've never snapped a set of Babolat Tonic 15L, or Wilson 16, I restring when tension loss and increasing friction become apparent. I've had premature snaps (in the bag) with cheaper gut offerings from Klip, Pacific and Global. I prefer gut in the higher tension range (60-62) rather than the mid 50's as I will get a few more hours out of it before the whole bed goes loosey goosey. The unique thing about gut, is that it's elasticity allows it to stay very comfy at hi tensions.

-J

Chicago
Thanks for the input. I did a thorough read of the entire thread, and was aware of your reference info. In fact, that is why i ordered the Prime/MB combo that I installed last night. Just kinda wondering out loud if I am searching for a holy grail considering my choice of stick (my other racquets are Prince ESP).

Perhaps I should raise the gut tension even more, since with a full bed of 4G I prefer 60#. Maybe go to 64 on the gut...

SpinToWin · Apr 24, 2014

epicondylitis said:
Chicago
Thanks for the input. I did a thorough read of the entire thread, and was aware of your reference info. In fact, that is why i ordered the Prime/MB combo that I installed last night. Just kinda wondering out loud if I am searching for a holy grail considering my choice of stick (my other racquets are Prince ESP).

Perhaps I should raise the gut tension even more, since with a full bed of 4G I prefer 60#. Maybe go to 64 on the gut...

yep, 4-5 pounds up for gut from 4G sounds right.

epicondylitis · Apr 25, 2014

Wow, the Pacific Prime 17 / WC MB 18 combo is perfect in terms of performance. More pop than full poly, but fully controllable, huge spin, and very good if not perfect touch.

Played 5 sets of doubles last night. DT has dropped from initial 39 to 36. Not bad, but real test comes on second hit, which will be one hour lesson today.

Some notching and fraying already, entirely on the mains. Crosses are only minimally dented and mains still move easily.

Gonna string up some VS Team with MB today to see if coating on that is tougher than Prime.

ChicagoJack · Apr 25, 2014

^ Very cool. Gut/Mosquito Bite is one of my faves. And I/we can thank JT_280 for that. IIRC it was on his reco that I tried it. Make sure you get some decent balls to hit with on your lesson tonight. Some of those balls in the teaching pro shopping cart can be pretty dead. Might give you a false impression.

corners · Apr 25, 2014

epicondylitis said:
Wow, the Pacific Prime 17 / WC MB 18 combo is perfect in terms of performance. More pop than full poly, but fully controllable, huge spin, and very good if not perfect touch.

Played 5 sets of doubles last night. DT has dropped from initial 39 to 36. Not bad, but real test comes on second hit, which will be one hour lesson today.

Some notching and fraying already, entirely on the mains. Crosses are only minimally dented and mains still move easily.

Gonna string up some VS Team with MB today to see if coating on that is tougher than Prime.

Interesting. Looking forward to hearing how that one ages and how long it lasts.

The stress on strings in the extremely open patterns is clearly much higher than in closed ones, resulting in tension loss occurring at much faster rates. Take a look at the following string of play test reports by carlosoki, a player who also posts on this message board. The latest 7 reports were made from a 98 ESP but the ones before that were with 18x20 95. He reports on tension loss using racquet tune app with some of the strings being used in both racquets.

http://stringforum.net/ratings.php?tester=14902

You can see how rapidly strings are losing tension in the 16x16 vs. the 18x20, about double the rate. One other thing to note from his tests is Prince Tour XC. I haven't grabbed a super-open pattern stick yet, but when I do I will definitely be looking at Tour XC and Wilson Ripspin. Both are showing much better tension maintenance in these patterns than most polys and both resist notching much better than your usual copoly. The latter quality is by virtue of ultra-high-molecular weight coatings. UHMW polyethylene is kind of like industrial strength teflon. It's what they make the articular surfaces of artificial joints with. On its own, UHMW polyethylene would play like super-slippery Kevlar. Sadly, it loses tension so fast that it won't work as a tennis string. But as a surface coating it might prove to be the killer string app for open patterns. I would be very tempted to try Tour XC 15L in the mains with Tour XC 17L in the crosses.

For gut mains, L-Tec 4S might be worth a try as a cross. This is a rectangular or "squoval" cross-sectioned string. I've had the notion for a while that such a cross would allow gut mains to last longer in super-open patterns because the flat surface would be less likely to slice into the gut mains than would the high pressure peaks of round crosses.

Ultimately, though, I think most 16x15 and 16x16 players are eventually going to be hitting kevlar/copoly or kevlar/Monogut ZX. Kevlar mains are the only thing that's going to last in those patterns. Pre-stretched super-slick poly crosses or pre-stretched ZX crosses will allow the kevlar mains to slide and snapback with gusto, I would think, and should hold tension well enough to make such combos the clear price-performance winner in these patterns. OK, enough of my prognosticatin'.

epicondylitis · Apr 25, 2014

Well, so much for that. Mains broke during lesson today. So, 4 hours of play. I could see it coming, too, it wasnt just out of the blue.

Gonna try VS with MB next and Prime with a different poly, RPM Blast 17.

Will report back.

ringwraith · Apr 25, 2014

Hi epicondylitis
How was MB crosses with gut mains compared to Lux 4G crosses? Looks like it didn't last long, but I am interested in playability comparisons.

Thanks!

JT_2eighty · Apr 25, 2014

epicondylitis said:
Well, so much for that. Mains broke during lesson today. So, 4 hours of play. I could see it coming, too, it wasnt just out of the blue.

Gonna try VS with MB next and Prime with a different poly, RPM Blast 17.

Will report back.

I really think you need to be using 16 to 15L gauge strings in the 105-S ...!

Mosquito bite is an 18g string at 1.16mm it will destroy gut in such an open pattern.

Once you are done with the above tests, you should try Prime 16 main / 16g poly cross. With so many poly options, I'd start with MSV Cofocus 1.28 or even something from the Polyfibre line. Both are very soft polys even in the 16g.

SpinToWin · Apr 25, 2014

epicondylitis said:
Well, so much for that. Mains broke during lesson today. So, 4 hours of play. I could see it coming, too, it wasnt just out of the blue.

Gonna try VS with MB next and Prime with a different poly, RPM Blast 17.

Will report back.

try thicker strings (both main and cross). First 16 gauge, and if that doesn't work, 15L. These strings will have noticeably more durability and better tension maintenance.

yangster007 · Apr 25, 2014

SpinToWin said:
try thicker strings (both main and cross). First 16 gauge, and if that doesn't work, 15L. These strings will have noticeably more durability and better tension maintenance.

Klip makes a 15L gauge coated natural gut for $25.99, I've used the 16 gauge version of it, plays very well. And for the love of God, don't use shaped poly to cross with natural gut main.

EpitomeOfAwesome · Apr 25, 2014

Tempted to trying Monogut ZX

I strung Head Hawk 17 in crosses with natty in mains and it was a very painful process. The string kept slipping out of the jaws and also got severely flattened. I am cringing looking at certain spots on the stringbed.

After reading Jack's review on Monogut ZX as cross, I'm very very tempted to try it out and praying I'll like it.

Will it be much easier to string than a poly? If it's easier to string and maintains tension better than Poly, that would be awesome. Hopefully doesn't notch like multifilaments. Do Red and natural color work the same way?

SpinToWin · Apr 25, 2014

EpitomeOfAwesome said:
I strung Head Hawk 17 in crosses with natty in mains and it was a very painful process. The string kept slipping out of the jaws and also got severely flattened. I am cringing looking at certain spots on the stringbed.

After reading Jack's review on Monogut ZX as cross, I'm very very tempted to try it out and praying I'll like it.

Will it be much easier to string than a poly? If it's easier to string and maintains tension better than Poly, that would be awesome. Hopefully doesn't notch like multifilaments. Do Red and natural color work the same way?

from what I've heard Zx needs a lot of work and attention to detail when stringing. I have strung Hawk and not experienced the problems you are describing… Clean your clamps with alcohol from time to time, maybe there was some kind of residue left that caused the problem in combination with the slick string.

EpitomeOfAwesome · Apr 25, 2014

SpinToWin said:
from what I've heard Zx needs a lot of work and attention to detail when stringing. I have strung Hawk and not experienced the problems you are describing… Clean your clamps with alcohol from time to time, maybe there was some kind of residue left that caused the problem in combination with the slick string.

I cleaned both the clamps and jaws just 3 racquets ago. Also adjusted the clamps.

The problem was with the jaws. When I gave it the right amount of slack, it would not suspend parallel to ground. Kept going down and down slipping and flattening the string in the process. I'll clean the jaws, but Pro Line II never gave such problems.

EpitomeOfAwesome · Apr 25, 2014

Do's and Dont's for Monogut ZX

I've decided I love natural gut in mains very much. All I need is the perfect cross. Pro Line II is decent but I'm very interested in giving monogut zx a try.

Unfortunately this string seems to need too many variables to align properly to reap its benefits. I am using a Babolat Pure Drive Lite (16x19 pattern) and use Klip Legend 16 at 59 on mains. I'm ordering some Ashaway Monogut ZX Natural color for cross.

Anybody who has used this string for cross in a gut hybrid, could you please tell me best tension starting point for my racquet? And any other measures/precautions to be taken before/during stringing? I use the basic Klippermate Stringer.

There have been threads and thousands of posts on this string in the forum but I don't know what to believe. Maybe the outlook on this string is converging a bit since its been a while since its release.

jbm · Apr 26, 2014

EpitomeOfAwesome said:
I've decided I love natural gut in mains very much. All I need is the perfect cross. Pro Line II is decent but I'm very interested in giving monogut zx a try.

Unfortunately this string seems to need too many variables to align properly to reap its benefits. I am using a Babolat Pure Drive Lite (16x19 pattern) and use Klip Legend 16 at 59 on mains. I'm ordering some Ashaway Monogut ZX Natural color for cross.

Anybody who has used this string for cross in a gut hybrid, could you please tell me best tension starting point for my racquet? And any other measures/precautions to be taken before/during stringing? I use the basic Klippermate Stringer.

There have been threads and thousands of posts on this string in the forum but I don't know what to believe. Maybe the outlook on this string is converging a bit since its been a while since its release.

I have strung the 17 g version of mongut zx red in the cross with Wilson NG in mains and have not had a problem with a low end electronic stringer with rotatory grip tensioner. I followed Ashaway instructions but could not slow the speed of the tensioner. Still ok. Because of cost, I know there is not alot of room for errors or experimentation, but I think you will be pleased with your setup once you get used to the tingy sound.

I strung 57 lbs both NG/ZX in a Wilson 6.1 95S. Really liking it, but just strung second racquet with the 16g version for better durability.

Low Friction Poly X's For Gut Mains : Softer Alternative to MSV Co-Focus?

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Professional

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Semi-Pro

Professional

New User

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Professional

Bionic Poster

Rookie

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

New User

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

New User

New User

Talk Tennis Guru

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

New User

Talk Tennis Guru

New User

Hall of Fame

Legend

New User

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Talk Tennis Guru

Professional

Semi-Pro

Talk Tennis Guru

Semi-Pro

Semi-Pro

Rookie

Similar threads