And Riggs, Segura, Hoad, Gimeno, Sedgman ?
It's possible that only Kramer, Pancho and Rosewall won Pro Tour ?
1963 World Series
- Thread starter Topspin1985
- Start date
It's possible that only Kramer, Pancho and Rosewall won Pro Tour ?
The term "pro tour" covers a lot of territory.
Riggs beat Budge in 1946 and 1947.
Segura won a long hth against Dinny Pails.
Hoad won several tours, the most important being the 1959 Ampol world pro tournament series, which included all the main tournaments.
Gimeno no tours, as I recall.
Sedgman won two tours in 1959, the European Grand Prix, and the New Zealand.
Great Lobb.
He only played the one in '63, that he lost as a rookie pro.
He played other smaller tours but even so, tours were being phased out in favor of tournaments by the time he turned pro. They were never completely phased out but there were fewer of them, in Laver's pro years.
All this speculation is rather pointless. The fact are that Kramer had the advantage over Gonzalez when Pancho first came on the pro tour. Gonzalez had a great advantage over Rosewall, and Hoad and Rosewall had the advantage over Laver in his first year on tour. Things were what they were and the fact IS that Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver were the greatest of the pro tour players and three of the very greatest players of all time.
All the same, perhaps that 1963 pro tour between Laver and Rosewall was significant as a hth indicator. Laver recently stated that Rosewall's strategy of lob,lob, lob, wore down his back and gave Rosewall the win. If there had been further hth tours between these two, why would the same result not have happened?
I got the impression that Laver felt that way.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
A belated thank you for this. (I wasn't active on this board when it was posted). It is very well organized and fascinating to follow. I don't know if you will see this response, but, can I presume that the "blank" sections are for events that actually occurred, but that, you don't have data for?
We now have a full record of this World Series. Tennis Base has recently uploaded results for the only two stands for which we were missing data:
39th Match of first phase [edited with corrections]
April 17
Trenton, NJ
Rosewall d. Gimeno 11-9
MacKay d. Laver 8-6
Buchholz d. Ayala 8-6
18th Match of second phase (Rosewall/Laver playoff)
May 30
Santa Barbara
Rosewall d. Laver 6-2, 6-2 [edited to correct this score]
39th Match of first phase [edited with corrections]
April 17
Trenton, NJ
Rosewall d. Gimeno 11-9
MacKay d. Laver 8-6
Buchholz d. Ayala 8-6
18th Match of second phase (Rosewall/Laver playoff)
May 30
Santa Barbara
Rosewall d. Laver 6-2, 6-2 [edited to correct this score]
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Rosewall won 15 pro slams, 4 amateur and 4 open era past age 33 which equals 23 major championships. Take away his 4 amateur and he still has 19. Take away Laver's 6 amateur slams, he then has 13 majors. Ken won 3 slams and 2 WCT titles after 1969, Laver won-O, losing 2 WCT finals to 36-37 YO Rosewall.
thrust, Rosewall was 37 at both his WCT titles. The 1971 edition was played in November.
During the '63 Kramer Cup final in Dublin, Rosewall d. Laver 6-1, 6-4 in a special exhibition match. It was played on Sept. 7, the middle day of the tie, right after the doubles, which clinched the tie for Australia. It was at the Fitzwilliam Club, on grass.
Bobby you had said that World Tennis mentioned the match, and they did but without the scores; I found those in the Irish press.
Bobby you had said that World Tennis mentioned the match, and they did but without the scores; I found those in the Irish press.
krosero, Thanks also for this finding. Good to know this score. At that time (and in all following years) it seldom happened that Rosewall won a set from Laver by 6-1...
Rare, no doubt, as both players were too good and knew each others game so well. In the 72 WCT final, however, Rosewall lost the first set 4-6 but won the next two 6-0, 63. Things became more normal after that, with the last two sets 6-7,7-6 for Rosewall. I remember in that firs set Laver came out blazing, I think, winning the first four games before Ken found his form and Laver cooled off a bit.
thrust, Maybe that 1972 6-0 set win of Ken's was the only one he managed against Laver in their many, many matches while Laver won several 6-0 sets against Rosewall, especially in 1968 at Wembley and L.A.
No doubt, but remember that Ken was 33-34 in 68 and more likely to be tired after playing tough matches than Laver who was 4 years younger. Long ago I read an article in which Tom Okker said that he would rather lose to Laver than Rosewall. Tom said that if Rod was really on his game he would hit many shots that were winners or near winners, so would not run to get to the ball as you realized you could not return it. Ken's shots were usually non winners but placed so that you could reach them but not hit an offensive return, so that Ken was at the net ready to put your return away, the point being that it was more tiring losing to Rosewall than Laver.
thrust, You are right about the age difference in 1968. In his peak years Rosewall would be unlikely to lose four 6-0 sets to Laver in one year.
Okker in 1971 lamented after losing clearly to Rosewall at Dallas: "You still can't get to the ball. It's very frustrating". Rosewall won 6-3, 6-3, 6-1...
pc1
G.O.A.T.
The volley was Rosewall's main putaway shot as it was for many in those days of course. Rosewall had one of the best volleys in tennis and that's saying something because in Rosewall's day there were super volleyers like Sedgman, Gonzalez, Hoad, Trabert, Segura, Laver, Newcombe, Roche, Okker, Nastase, Smith, Ashe, Emerson. In Vines' book he mentioned that Segura had a great volley that was only slightly below Rosewall's. I don't include Kramer because when Rosewall turned Pro Kramer was essentially semi retired and clearly over the hill. At his best Kramer's vollley was comparable with any player's.
Weak claim.
Hanover 1964 is one of the most messed up tournaments in McCauley's book.
At least, most of the times, when he didn't know the scores, he left a blank spot.
Hanover is honestly a disaster
This is what McCauley has (I copy exactly his scores):
HANOVER PRO CHAMPS - GERMANY SEP 25-28
1 E. Buchholz d. R. Laver
K. Rosewall d. L. Ayala (?) 11-9 7-5
S E. Buchholz d. A. Olmedo
K. Rosewall d. A. Gimeno 13-11 4-6 6-3
F K. Rosewall d. E. Buchholz 3-6 6-3 6-3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's see what really happened
Hanover Pro Champs, Sept 24-27
Sporthalle, indoors ($5,000 total prize money, $1,500 to the winner)
Quarters
E. Buchholz d. L. Hoad 6-1, 6-1
R. Laver d. R. Haillet 6-2, 6-4
K. Rosewall d. A. Olmedo 11-9, 7-5
A. Gimeno d. F. Sedgman
Semis
E. Buchholz d. R. Laver
K. Rosewall d. A. Gimeno 13-11, 4-6, 6-3
Finals
R. Laver d. A. Gimeno 8-6, 6-3 (3rd place)
K. Rosewall d. E. Buchholz 3-6, 6-3, 6-3
Laver/Buccholz d. Sedgman/Olmedo in doubles final 6-3, 6-4
(Hoad withdrew from the doubles after the loss vs Buchholz, his place was taken by Ayala)
Scott_tennis
Rookie
Based on various newspaper reports I think the event listed for Feb 24 should read Utica (NY) instead of Toronto.
The Toronto date of Feb 25 is correct.
Scott_tennis
Rookie
I found an article with details of one other event to add to the 1963 World Series results:
April 5, 1963
Dayton, Ohio
University of Dayton Fieldhouse
Rosewall d Gimeno 23-21 (two hours sixteen minutes)
Laver d MacKay 18-16 (one hour forty minutes)
Buchholz d Ayala 8-5
Doubles Rosewall Gimeno d MacKay Laver 6-3
Per Dayton Daily News, records after this event were:
Rosewall 25-5
Buchholz 19-11
Laver 17-13
Gimeno 14-16
Ayala 6-23
(Not sure if the Ayala record is a typo since all other players reflect 30 matches and Ayala's record only adds to 29 matches)
April 5, 1963
Dayton, Ohio
University of Dayton Fieldhouse
Rosewall d Gimeno 23-21 (two hours sixteen minutes)
Laver d MacKay 18-16 (one hour forty minutes)
Buchholz d Ayala 8-5
Doubles Rosewall Gimeno d MacKay Laver 6-3
Per Dayton Daily News, records after this event were:
Rosewall 25-5
Buchholz 19-11
Laver 17-13
Gimeno 14-16
Ayala 6-23
(Not sure if the Ayala record is a typo since all other players reflect 30 matches and Ayala's record only adds to 29 matches)
Scott_tennis
Rookie
The final standings and prize money for the 1963 World Series were as follows:
1. Rosewall 31-10 then 14-4 in playoffs for $35,000
2. Laver 25-16 then 4-14 in playoffs for $25,000
3. Gimeno 21-20 then 11-7 in playoffs for $20,000
4. Buchholz 23-18 then 7-11 in playoffs for $15,000
5. MacKay 12-29 for $10,000
6. Ayala 11-30 (including Olmedo filling in at El Paso event and going 0-1) for $7,500
The total prize money for the World Series was $112,500 and the event (series and playoffs) ran nearly four full months, from early February through late May.
Does anyone has overall prize money earnings figures for the IPTPA players for the entire year (1963)?
1. Rosewall 31-10 then 14-4 in playoffs for $35,000
2. Laver 25-16 then 4-14 in playoffs for $25,000
3. Gimeno 21-20 then 11-7 in playoffs for $20,000
4. Buchholz 23-18 then 7-11 in playoffs for $15,000
5. MacKay 12-29 for $10,000
6. Ayala 11-30 (including Olmedo filling in at El Paso event and going 0-1) for $7,500
The total prize money for the World Series was $112,500 and the event (series and playoffs) ran nearly four full months, from early February through late May.
Does anyone has overall prize money earnings figures for the IPTPA players for the entire year (1963)?
Actually, Hoad decided not to participate in the 1963 World Series, he never planned to take part.
The 1963 World Series provided an official ranking for the touring pros, but Hoad, Sedgman, Gonzales, Segura did not participate and were not officially ranked for 1963.
Both Hoad and Rosewall gave part of their percentages for the Australian tour in January to Laver to help him meet his guarantee, so this amount does not reflect the actual results of tennis play.
This 1963 World Series was the last one which used that portable canvas court built for the 1939 Budge/Vines tour and then passed on for the major pro tours. It had a loose canvas surface which slid a bit when a player stopped running, and was a major advantage for the experienced pros over the rookies.
The 1964 world tour did not use that old canvas surface, which may have been junked.
Scott_tennis
Rookie
Thanks Urban. I am not able to locate New York Herald Tribune archives, however I did locate an article dated Jan 7, 1964 in the Fresno Bee.
UPI article with dateline Sydney:
"The International Professional Tennis Players Association has voted Australia's Ken Rosewall world professional player of 1963.
The 27 year-old Rosewall won 47 of the 62 matches he contested during the year in the United States and Canada in addition to winning major professional championships in Paris and London during his European tour.
The association also announced that Australia's Rod Laver, who turned professional at the conclusion of the1962 Davis Cup challenge round against Mexico, is the top money winner among touring professionals with $60,000.
Rosewall was second on the list with $45,000 from eight months of touring, two months less than Laver.
Earl Buchholz of St Louis, Mo., won $30,000 in nine months touring. Andres Gimeno of Barcelona, Spain, $25,000 in eight months, and Australia's Lew Hoad, $20,000 from seven months.
The association said the 14 touring pros grossed $350,000 during last year's tour which took in the United States, Canada, Europe, New Zealand, South African and Japan. After expenses the players divided approximately $250,000 among them."
Actually, Rosewall was 29 in 1963
Scott_tennis
Rookie
The article does show the incorrect age for Rosewall. In addition, I am not sure how the stated record of 47-15 was developed. In the World Series tour Rosewall was 31-10 in the main section and 14-4 in the playoffs. That adds to a record of 45-14, or two wins and one loss less than the stated record in the article.
In US and Canada non-World Series appearances for 1963, Rosewall was 0-2 at Cleveland, 1-1 at Winnipeg, 0-2 at San Diego, 7-0 at the Los Angeles TV event, 3-0 at the Los Angeles/Adler tournament and 3-0 at Forest Hills.
It would appear that there is no combination of those events that would develop a record of 2-1 for Rosewall.
Scott_tennis
Rookie
In terms of prize money....if the figures are correct:
Laver $60,000: $25,000 from World Series and $35,000 from all other events
Rosewall $45,000: $35,000 from World Series and $10,000 from all other events
Buchholz $30,000: $15,000 from World Series and $15,000 from all other events
Gimeno $25,000: $20,000 from World Series and $5,000 from all other events
Hoad $20,000: all from non-World Series events
The top five add up to $180,000.
If the total of the 14 pros was about $250,000, then that leaves about $70,000 for the other nine pros:
MacKay earned $10,000 from World Series, not sure what he earned from all other events
Ayala earned $7,500 from World Series, and also not sure of his earnings from all other events
Other IPTPA 1963 tour participants who were not in the World Series were Sedgman, Anderson, Olmedo, Haillet, Davies, Trabert and Nielsen.
Laver $60,000: $25,000 from World Series and $35,000 from all other events
Rosewall $45,000: $35,000 from World Series and $10,000 from all other events
Buchholz $30,000: $15,000 from World Series and $15,000 from all other events
Gimeno $25,000: $20,000 from World Series and $5,000 from all other events
Hoad $20,000: all from non-World Series events
The top five add up to $180,000.
If the total of the 14 pros was about $250,000, then that leaves about $70,000 for the other nine pros:
MacKay earned $10,000 from World Series, not sure what he earned from all other events
Ayala earned $7,500 from World Series, and also not sure of his earnings from all other events
Other IPTPA 1963 tour participants who were not in the World Series were Sedgman, Anderson, Olmedo, Haillet, Davies, Trabert and Nielsen.
It appears that these records do not include results from the Australian tour in January. In that tour, both Hoad and Rosewall gave 5% of their percentages of the gate to Laver to help him earn his guarantee level on the tour. That tour would have been big money events with television involved.
That last sentence makes clear that the Australian tour was not included in the calculations.
"The association said the 14 touring pros grossed $350,000 during last year's tour which took in the United States, Canada, Europe, New Zealand, South African and Japan. After expenses the players divided approximately $250,000 among them."
There were also player contract guarantees which entered into the calculations, but only at the end of the season. Gonzales was not included in these guarantees, and he complained.
Didn't Gonzales play some events apart from Forest Hills? And Rosewall apparently lost his final match at the L.A. TV event arranged by Kramer, according to Trabert.
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Laver stated in 2016 that his back gave out because of Rosewall's persistent lob tactics. Laver had to drop out for a while because of his back injury, and did not recover on that tour.
Scott_tennis
Rookie
Dan
If you have any prize money or earnings figures from the Australian tour of early 1963 - details would be appreciated.
Thanks,
I would like to see them myself, I am not sure that they were ever reported. They were probably kept quiet among the three players who participated in that Australian tour. That tour was not viewed as part of the 1963 pro season, and the print media actually regarded the Australian series as an end-of-year event for 1962.
Here is a report on the very first match of that 1963 Australian tour at Sydney, Laver's first professional match at White City against Hoad.
The report from January 6, 1963 states that there were 8,000 fans in the seats, the most for pro tennis since the "major series" in 1959.
Laver received AUS$1,500 of the AUS$6,000 gate.
www.newspapers.com
The report from January 6, 1963 states that there were 8,000 fans in the seats, the most for pro tennis since the "major series" in 1959.
Laver received AUS$1,500 of the AUS$6,000 gate.
The Sydney Morning Herald from Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Get this The Sydney Morning Herald page for free from Sunday, January 6, 1963 fWnn- Grand slam (I I ImVJ Mil winner down NjVSf fllflV I1 rp (P rp By Mran i L(0)-) QuIs win ULJ Lz.... Edition of The Sydney Morning Herald
www.newspapers.com
Scott_tennis
Rookie
The final event of 1963 for the pros was a tournament held in three cities in Japan: Tokyo, Osaka and Kyoto. Appears to have been organized as a six-man round robin with the top four finishers competing in a knockout formal for semi-finals, finals and third place. Event started October 28 in Tokyo and ended November 6 in Tokyo.
Does anyone have the details of the exact dates when matches were played in each of the three cities?
One article after the first day of matches referred to it as an eight day event, although start date to end date was ten days. I am guessing that there were two open dates in the span for travel.
Does anyone have the details of the exact dates when matches were played in each of the three cities?
One article after the first day of matches referred to it as an eight day event, although start date to end date was ten days. I am guessing that there were two open dates in the span for travel.
Chris Jordan's book only has the results and the venues, but not the exact dates.
The results I saw for Tokyo Pro in 1963 indicate that for the Tokyo tournament itself there was a preliminary round robin, then two playoff matches for placings.
In the preliminary matches Rosewall was knocked out with a loss to Hoad, Hoad lost the third place match to Sedgman, Buchholz won 1st place by beating Laver in the final.
How these results connected to Osaka and Kyoto I do not know.
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It seems like only NoMercy can reply to your question
Please enlighten us.
How are things going? Any new news?
Just doing a rough extrapolation from the first night gate of $6,000 and $1,500 to Laver, Laver might have earned about $10,000 in his 8 matches against Hoad, and perhaps a little less from his matches against Rosewall.Here is a report on the very first match of that 1963 Australian tour at Sydney, Laver's first professional match at White City against Hoad.
The report from January 6, 1963 states that there were 8,000 fans in the seats, the most for pro tennis since the "major series" in 1959.
Laver received AUS$1,500 of the AUS$6,000 gate.
The Sydney Morning Herald from Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Get this The Sydney Morning Herald page for free from Sunday, January 6, 1963 fWnn- Grand slam (I I ImVJ Mil winner down NjVSf fllflV I1 rp (P rp By Mran i L(0)-) QuIs win ULJ Lz.... Edition of The Sydney Morning Herald
That is a good haul from this initial series.
