2016 Rome Masters - R2- Zverev vs Federer

[veroniquem]

Well by points stats, Fed is tied with Rafa for 2nd place on clay so far this year. For a surface other than hard courts you'd have to have a ranking over several years and that is no good. Cuevas has won two tournaments on clay this year, and then he loses to Mahut in Rome? Cuevas has great stats. The current ranking system would have to be the basis for any clay court rankings perhaps with some tweaks or weighting for clay, otherwise the Pellas, Cuevas, Almagros, and even Thiems of the world would be wildly over ranked.

No, no, no, I'm not talking about stats. I'm talking about ranking points. Fed is not tied with Rafa, lol.

 

[Meles]

Do you mean average points per tournament? Or percentage of points won? The latter doesn't matter, as it's not used in any ranking system. The final match results are all that counts. 7-6 0-6 7-6 is a win. 6-0 6-0 is a win. Both are equally wins.

I think weighted surface rankings would be appropriate. Perhaps use the current rankings formula and double the points for a given surface to weight them. This would stop Cuevas and other clay specialists from leaping up the rankings beyond their merit, but might get close to the mark. It would be simple formula change for the ATP. They could even subdivide into types of hard courts (indoor carpet, etc.)

 

[Meles]

I'm gonna bump it when Z wins a big one this year or next

Your signature space is blank. Wear it as a badge of honor! Any tournament win would get the monkey off Z's back.

By the way I got a real kick out of watching the Dream (Zverev) Thiem in doubles. Hoping they will do it at the French.

 

[veroniquem]

Your signature space is blank. Wear it as a badge of honor! Any tournament win would get the monkey off Z's back.

By the way I got a real kick out of watching the Dream (Zverev) Thiem in doubles. Hoping they will do it at the French.

I don't like signatures personally, it's just added text to posts that gets me confused (no offense, I know you have a long one, just the way I feel )

 

[Meles]

I don't like signatures personally, it's just added text to posts that gets me confused (no offense, I know you have a long one, just the way I feel )

Maximum length on mine. We need an ardent Zverev supporter who will put such assaults of integrity on display. The beautiful thing is if things go south, just remove your signature and the paper trail is gone.

 

[veroniquem]

This is what the ranking points look like for clay in 2016:
Nadal 2,130
Djoko 1,010
Murray 960
Wawa 190
Fed 180

I could add the 2015 points and it would still be obvious that:
a- Nadal doesn't fit #5
b- Fed doesn't belong to #2

 

[Meles]

This is what the ranking points look like for clay in 2016:
Nadal 2,130
Djoko 1,010
Murray 960
Wawa 190
Fed 180

I could add the 2015 points and it would still be obvious that:
a- Nadal doesn't fit #5
b- Fed doesn't belong to #2

haha. Thiem 500 plus as 6th seed behind Kei and Monfils; I like it.

 

[veroniquem]

Maximum length on mine. We need an ardent Zverev supporter who will put such assaults of integrity on display. The beautiful thing is if things go south, just remove your signature and the paper trail is gone.

Ha ha ha some people will chase you and keep reminding you anyway like that W when I thought KG could not beat Rafa. It was years ago but I still hear about it!!
I have my profile pic to remind people of Sasha's aura

 

[veroniquem]

haha. Thiem 500 plus as 6th seed behind Kei and Monfils; I like it.

Yeah overall Thiem is at 680 (for 2016) and Nishi at 660 but you'd probably have to limit the number of 250 and 500 counted, so with that perspective, I guess you could put Nishi ahead of Thiem.
Bottom line is: Nadal, Djoko and Murray are the 3 main contenders for this RG (unless something happens in Rome that puts someone else in the foreground)

 

[cc0509]

This is what the ranking points look like for clay in 2016:
Nadal 2,130
Djoko 1,010
Murray 960
Wawa 190
Fed 180

I could add the 2015 points and it would still be obvious that:
a- Nadal doesn't fit #5
b- Fed doesn't belong to #2

Smarting over 35 year old rusty Fed on one leg schooling your lover boy Zverev on clay today huh?

 

[Walle]

That is correct. Thiem has not won a tournament that Gulbis has played in. Conclusion; the UE bug is contagious.

Nice 2015...

 

[Steve0904]

Since last year, Wawa hasn't done much and if he continues to fare like he has this year, he's gonna drop down the rankings like a rock to the bottom of the ocean after RG. That's the only thing that keeps his ranking so high atm: his RG title. And he really doesn't look like he's in any kind of a form to defend it. He'll easily drop out of the top 10.

Doesn't matter. He's defending RG champion, and he beat the #1 in the final while Nadal looked like a 12 year old against that very same #1.

 

[veroniquem]

Doesn't matter. He's defending RG champion, and he beat the #1 in the final while Nadal looked like a 12 year old against that very same #1.

And he looks horrible this year. Last year was a one off.

 

[Pagoo]

I have been a big Zverev fan since 2014. O boy, it's going to be a real struggle staying a fan. I have no idea how the poor lad became a favorite of that gloryhunter.

 

[5555]

Lex Luthor lost!

​

 

[Steve0904]

And he looks horrible this year. Last year was a one off.

One is better than none.

 

[TheMuzziah]

I thought Thiem would win but did not expect it to be straight sets.

Impressive indeed.

Edit: ****ing hell im blind

 

[veroniquem]

One is better than none.

True but it's not significant over the long term, so you cannot make an argument that he's a better clay courter overall (or at present) than Nadal or Djoko.

 

[Pagoo]

Unfortunately players can't choose their "fans". I doubt Zverev (a big fan of Federer) would want a Federer hater cheering for him.

 

[veroniquem]

Unfortunately players can't choose their "fans". I doubt Zverev (a big fan of Federer) would want a Federer hater cheering for him.

Z is a nice guy, not full of rage like you

 

[Steve0904]

True but it's not significant over the long term, so you cannot make an argument that he's a better clay courter overall (or at present) than Nadal or Djoko.

Yes I can. And I just did.

You've lost this argument because you're too biased. Move along now.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Lucky net cord.

 

[veroniquem]

Yes I can. And I just did.

You've lost this argument because you're too biased. Move along now.

I'll lose this argument if Wawa defends his RG title. So far I don't see any indication that he will.

 

[Steve0904]

Of course Novak is ahead of Nadal. He's ahead of everyone. But the fact is that after three 1000s, Novak has one on clay, and Nadal has one. That's all we know so far this year.

I'll remind you that Nadal has only been seeded #1 at RG three times, and one of those was in 2009. So RG has not done too well with seedings, and there is a problem with the huge gap between the clay season in one year and the next one.

This is placing way too much importance on what happens this year. You need to at least look back at what happened last year, like the overall rankings do to have anywhere to start. We've established that Djokovic is way ahead of everybody. Wawrinka is defending RG champion. They both deserve to be ranked ahead of Nadal. After that it's too close to call between Murray and Nadal. He shouldn't get preferential treatment because he was a clay god for so long. Right now, Nadal is playing like the 5th best clay player in the world. Only Federer could/should be bumped out, but there's still nothing technically wrong with seeding Nadal at 5 on clay in 2015-16 IMO. He hasn't been that good when you consider that he's tried to vulture clay tournaments just to "build confidence" and been largely unsuccessful.

 

[Steve0904]

I'll lose this argument if Wawa defends his RG title. So far I don't see any indication that he will.

No. You've lost it precisely because he beat a "none off" in the RG final last year.

 

[Pagoo]

Z is a nice guy, not full of rage like you

Not full of rage at all, don't flatter yourself. A troll like you doesn't deserve anything more than vitriol.

 

[veroniquem]

No. You've lost it precisely because he beat a "none off" in the RG final last year.

He did it once and now he sucks. That's exactly the definition of a one off

 

[Steve0904]

He did it once and now he sucks. That's exactly the definition of a one off

He's won 2 slams so he's not a one off.

 

[veroniquem]

He's won 2 slams so he's not a one off.

Not on clay, he hasn't. Hasn't even reached 2 finals as a matter of fact

 

[Steve0904]

Not on clay, he hasn't. Hasn't even reached 2 finals as a matter of fact

Surface doesn't matter.

 

[veroniquem]

And another early round loss in Rome lol. He's not even a dark horse for RG

 

[AceSalvo]

Roger: "I am not bothered by the loss today"

Roger: "I expect a quick recovery"

Two things that tell me Roger may have wanted to skip Rome. He did mention a week back that the goal was to get fit for RG or Grass season at best.

 

[Gary Duane]

This is placing way too much importance on what happens this year. You need to at least look back at what happened last year, like the overall rankings do to have anywhere to start. We've established that Djokovic is way ahead of everybody. Wawrinka is defending RG champion. They both deserve to be ranked ahead of Nadal.

I just can't believe that Wawrinka deserves to be SEEDED above Nadal this year NOW. And I think the absurdity of that has already been proved in this tournament.

After that it's too close to call between Murray and Nadal. He shouldn't get preferential treatment because he was a clay god for so long.

I have no problem with Murray being ranked with or above Nadal because his performance this year has been very good.

Right now, Nadal is playing like the 5th best clay player in the world.

No. He's not. Not in any way.

Only Federer could/should be bumped out, but there's still nothing technically wrong with seeding Nadal at 5 on clay in 2015-16 IMO. He hasn't been that good when you consider that he's tried to vulture clay tournaments just to "build confidence" and been largely unsuccessful.

I don't think that winning a Masters 1000 is vulturing tournaments. You can say he is padding his record by playing in smaller tournaments, but considering he won Monte Carlo and lost to Murray last week, who was clearly the second best player in the tournament, is simply not the play of a #5 clay player.

At any rate, we'll know more tomorrow. It turns out that Novak has been pushed as hard as Nadal so far, so they go into the QF both having a chance to show how good they are.

But my feeling is that the match tomorrow should be happening at least in a SF, not a QF, and EITHER player is going to be screwed a little by losing. If Nadal prevails I don't see it as being too fair to Novak either.

I believe the SFs should have Murray, Nadal and Novak if they are all good enough to win against everyone but each other.

 

[bjsnider]

Federer says he expected to lose this match, and I would tend to agree, yet the opposite happened. I did not see it. What happened that Zverev lost?

 

[Steve0904]

I just can't believe that Wawrinka deserves to be SEEDED above Nadal this year NOW. And I think the absurdity of that has already been proved in this tournament.

Why not? He's defending RG champion. You can't reseed so often that you don't take into account who won the previous years RG. That's ludicrous IMO.

I have no problem with Murray being ranked with or above Nadal because his performance this year has been very good.

Neither do I.

No. He's not. Not in any way.

Why is he not? Is it because his return stats are still good while it's only the serve that's dropped. Serve is part of the game, right?

I don't think that winning a Masters 1000 is vulturing tournaments. You can say he is padding his record by playing in smaller tournaments, but considering he won Monte Carlo and lost to Murray last week, who was clearly the second best player in the tournament, is simply not the play of a #5 clay player.

So he's won one major clay tournament in 2 years. Essentially the same as Murray and we both agree Murray is ahead of him.

At any rate, we'll know more tomorrow. It turns out that Novak has been pushed as hard as Nadal so far, so they go into the QF both having a chance to show how good they are.

But my feeling is that the match tomorrow should be happening at least in a SF, not a QF, and EITHER player is going to be screwed a little by losing. If Nadal prevails I don't see it as being too fair to Novak either.

I believe the SFs should have Murray, Nadal and Novak if they are all good enough to win against everyone but each other.

Maybe so, but let's be honest here, this debate has only started because of Veronique's extreme Nadal bias even if she may have a point. However, the idea that it "makes no sense" that Nadal is ranked 5th is overblowing it. The only person he could/should be ahead of is Federer. Otherwise, It's perfectly justifiable that Nadal is ranked 5th. As I said he could/should be ranked ahead of Federer, but the truth is that last year many people thought Federer could beat Nadal even on clay. He was that bad. And I doubt Federer in 2015 would've lost to the likes of Thiem, Cuevas, Fognini, and Almagro for example.