digidoc15
New User
Yea you should have seen it..They were having fun just aiming balls at each other..
A parent looking for some answers
- Thread starter digidoc15
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Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
Your kids will have a lot of success, keep it fun and you will have some free scholarships come your way at the very least with their ability.
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
digidoc15
New User
Thanks for the very encouraging words. I just hope I'm able to keep their interest alive.
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
It'll make them studs haha. Just make sure you start light weight and muscle strengthening at around 12 or so. Light medecine ball workouts and low weigh stuff. Any trainer can help you make a good program for them.
And make sure to do shoulder excersises with bands to protect the rotator cuff, that is the biggest thing. Keep it healthy!
digidoc15
New User
Thanks I'll work on that. I love the gym, will make sure they spend some effective time there when its time. Looking forward to the stud phase [emoji4]
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
@Ihatetennis
Which tennis academy in Dubai was this?
Which tennis academy in Dubai was this?
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
No idea, it was at a pretty big hotel/resort.
He was part of a coaching exchange thing that took coaches to places around the world. He coached in hawaii, austria, china, and dubai.
Which country was he from?
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
PBI then, Peter Burwash International. I'm not surprised the kids had pain and they made them play with green dot up to 14 years old.
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
Yea, it was obvious. Couldn't pay me enough to work for/with those clowns. I hope your friend no longer is involved with them.
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
LOL no he is not.
He hated that he had to charge the same amount.
They actually told them that he needed to tone down his coaching because everyone wanted privates with him and the other coaches were lucky to get 2 a day while my coach had 12-14.
He gave it up about 8 years ago, he enjoyed it at the time though. As a 24 year old out of college who all of a sudden couldn't compete in tennis anymore, it was a good place to get an extra couple of years to figure stuff out.
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
He was part of a small academy that traied at the jumeirah beach hotel.
He also coached at Bio-Hotel in austria and one of the hong kong ones as well as one in hawaii
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
Yeah, he hated them though. They made him play with prince rackets of the time, exo3 frames like the "monfils" one, and then when he was done with it in hawaii, he threw them into the ocean. 8 rackets just thrown into the ocean lol
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
I worked at a 5 star resort where Burwash got the idea for PBI many years back. There was one of his books in the tennis office. I think I lasted about 5 pages.
He's a very smart business man and has all the best resorts locked up but his coaching methods are...well I'll be professional and say I don't agree. Also the whole PBI coaching philosophy is resort coaching which is what they do obviously so their whole program consists of 3 day or week long guests for example so that's the only format they teach. Don't go to them for long term development.
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
yeah, that's what they told my coach. He had some people who he would see every couple of weeks for a few days in dubai. they got mad at him for actually being a coach.
digidoc15
New User
Thanks Tennis_balla.. I followed your advise, slowed it down and focused on recovery. It's a little challenging to keep it short with them but we are getting there. Did do the drill you suggested. It's still a work under progress but I noticed some improvement in his balance and recovery last week when he tried playing with the ball machine.
Do you have a link to shoulder exercises ? Are these good enough ?
* Active resistive external rotation
* active resistive extension
* active resistive internal rotation
* active resistive adduction.
Taken from here.
navigator
Hall of Fame
I'm curious about this. I started playing as a junior in the '70s so we had no green dot balls back then. If you lined up 100 full-time teaching pros that dealt mainly with juniors, what percentage would advocate using green dot balls with the U10s versus using regular tennis balls from the outset? I'm not a teaching pro, nor do I have kids. I'm just kind of curious about the logic behind not starting out kids on the regular balls immediately.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
Yea keep going. He'll get more strength in his body the more he plays and more confidence in his shots.
What I like most is his enthusiasm which is above everything else at that age. Keep making it fun for him.
I think the idea is to get more kids into tennis and actually be able to play. Orange and green balls should be easier for kids to play with as they are slower and don't bounce as high. That said, I think this is aimed more to try and get masses of kids involved, not kids with invested and knowledgeable parents or coaches with the goal of developing high level players. Is it working? Who knows? Is there any evidence that more kids are playing tennis?
Personally, I started my son on yellow ball when he was 6-7 and he's now 14 and a top sectional and highly ranked national junior. He had to play a few sectional tournaments with green ball, but never trained with them. On the other hand, my daughter, who is 2 years younger, played much more green ball and is basically tracking the same progress as he did at her age (wins, rankings, etc).
I think it's more about what you do, rather than what you use. You can use yellow from the start and be fine if you do the right things. You can also use yellow from the start and run a kid right out of the sport due to frustration. However, colored balls are not magic. They can be a useful tools if you teach the right things, or you can let them hit 20 stroke moon ball rallies and create players that will get killed as they age. It's about good development, not the equipment.
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digidoc15
New User
Thanks for the reply. Could you give us some insight on the right things with the regular ball. In my kids case they like regular balls more because they enjoy hitting hard.. And don't get the same feeling with colored balls, probably it's just a habit. I understand your son started at a very young age, wasn't it difficult to keep the ball in the court? Did you focus more on drills? Do you observe a difference in the stroke development or speed when you compare kids using regular and ROG balls? Thanks and goodluck with your kids..
Starting young ones with yellow balls takes more patience. Obviously, it will be a while before they can rally and play games, so bringing them along slowly with hand feeding, controlled racquet feeding, and some live ball drills where you can keep control and focus on technique is key. It takes some skill to be able to toss and feed balls properly so that they can focus on the correct stroke development sequences. Often, parents (weather coaching them or just watching) want them to progress too fast. There are no shortcuts.
Colored balls are meant to allow play-based learning, which the USTA hopes will attract and keep more kids. I get it, but not so sure it will work or is working. You can have two 7 year olds playing a tennis match with orange balls and they might be able to rally and have fun, but it may not be the best thing for their development. I've see so many parents sitting on the sidelines saying how amazing it is that the players can have a 20 ball rally, when the moon balls they are hitting are more a product of the ball and not the player. To me, this just creates future low level recreational players. But hey, they pay USTA dues, too.
On the other hand, two well-coached 10 year olds with green dot balls can have a match where they are using pattern play, using spins, depth, and movement to work the point win. The green ball just extends the points a bit, making it more a chess match than a power game. Kind of like clay. This can be useful, although it should be a short part of the progression, IMO.Here is another use for colored balls: We were at the courts one day and two middle school girls come on a court and start to rally. They were not experienced players and could not keep the ball in play. After a few minutes one says "this is too hard" and they decide to leave. Before they leave, I offered them a few green-dot balls that I had in the bag from my daughter. I told them what they were and they gave it a try. They stayed for an hour. When they left, they asked where they could get some of the balls. So, certainly useful on the recreational side.
As an alternative viewpoint - the lower compression balls allow kids to learn the game whilst playing the game (which is as good as you can get developmentally)
Yes, this was part of my answer. I agree... if they are guided properly. However, I see so many kids using low compression balls that have no guidance and while they can rally and "play", they are not developing much of anything. Here in the States, the USTA has marketed it almost like pick-up basketball - just give the kids the small court, small racquets, and low compression balls and the rest takes care of itself.
Ash_Smith
Legend
^^^ To some extent giving kids appropriate equipment will allow some skill development to take care of itself - receiving and sending skills are the basis for not only tennis but a great number of individual and invasion sports - kids will play and experiment and enjoy themselves and hopefully learn to love the game. Love of the game drives future ambition.
Of course in a secondary skill, late specialisation sport like tennis there does need to be some specific guidance, but that is true regardless of the ball or equipment used.
We know from extensive research that the optimal development environment for sport is one which matches the environment of competition as closely as possible - mini tennis has been scaled down in ratio to mimic the competition environment of tennis, appropriate to the physical development of children. Learning sports through playing the game is more effective that learning the skills in isolation - in isolation they are not sports skills.
Of course in a secondary skill, late specialisation sport like tennis there does need to be some specific guidance, but that is true regardless of the ball or equipment used.
We know from extensive research that the optimal development environment for sport is one which matches the environment of competition as closely as possible - mini tennis has been scaled down in ratio to mimic the competition environment of tennis, appropriate to the physical development of children. Learning sports through playing the game is more effective that learning the skills in isolation - in isolation they are not sports skills.
digidoc15
New User
I agree with BMCs first post..But again I'm no tennis coach. But if we look at the facts we yet have no proof for the success of ROG balls.. It might be more helpful in some cases, but early to say yet. I understand the reasoning for attracting more kids. But learning to control the regular ball from a young age might be a big advantage rather than being carried away with the easy balls. The changing of balls might disturb the the technique and the confidence when facing kids who are in the habit of regular balls. From what I understand in tennis you have to be unconsciously competent, the earlier you start learning the better.. Now the easy way always looks more attractive in any sports and in life for that matter..But generally not the more effective. We have enormous proof for success of kids starting regular balls early.. The only plausible reason for ROGs seems marketing..Which again does make sense to have a larger pool of kids playing. But it in no way should discourage the other kids playing regular balls.
With regular balls I've realized the key is patience and interest.. As a parent and I assume for most coaches it requires lot of patience to feed the regular balls with the right bounce and keep the kids interested. I do mix ROG balls sometimes but my son says that's not the real ball. So the interest factor can vary depending on the individual. And I don't agree that mini matches are more beneficial than the drills at such young age. The focus should be on building the basic strokes. Strategic part can wait and should not disrupt the basics. When my son plays a match all he's interested in is how cool his shots were and if they crossed the net.. I kinda agree with him at this stage
With regular balls I've realized the key is patience and interest.. As a parent and I assume for most coaches it requires lot of patience to feed the regular balls with the right bounce and keep the kids interested. I do mix ROG balls sometimes but my son says that's not the real ball. So the interest factor can vary depending on the individual. And I don't agree that mini matches are more beneficial than the drills at such young age. The focus should be on building the basic strokes. Strategic part can wait and should not disrupt the basics. When my son plays a match all he's interested in is how cool his shots were and if they crossed the net.. I kinda agree with him at this stage
digidoc15
New User
Here is a recent video of my son after a vacation gap of around two weeks. I kept the drill to just a minute but then he wanted a 'lot of balls'. The coach frequency is still once to twice a month just to check the progress. I know he's still at an early stage but would appreciate any tips on what I should work on. Any suggestions will be highly appreciated.
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ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I went through the same with my two boys. Few things I found with coaching and junior tennis:
- I had both in tennis, then both out of tennis. My oldest played baseball at a high level until 13 and decided to go back to tennis. My youngest is doing competitive dance. That's what they choose so we just go with it. It was tough moving my older son back to tennis, but no use having them play a sport they have no interest in, no matter how good. So just be prepared to let them try different things. I mean, make sure they give things a solid go and don't let them quit when things get tougher, but sometimes they just completely lose the interest.
- We have gone through several coaches through the years. Mostly because each coach was more of a level coach. What I mean is, the first coach they had was good for introductory skills and teaching them the game, but as my one son progressed the technique and game play required a different coach. As it is now, my oldest plays under a few different coaches though. He does some clinics with his original coach who is excellent with match play and game IQ. He does lessons and his advanced group with a D1 college coach who is excellent for technique reinforcement, small important tweaks, and advanced drills. He had his high school coach who was not a right fit for him so we are actually move high schools (just one of those things you might end up having to look at). And then he goes to academy and clinics at some high profile places. Ultimately, as your kids develop you will see what you like in a coach based on what you think your child needs. But keep an open dialogue with them to make sure you are all on the same page. I was always up front with my expectations for the coach, but I also respected their knowledge for what they were trying to accomplish with their programs.
- My opinion is, the more you can have a one-on-one coach, the faster a player will improve because of the direct feedback and close partnership.That said, everyone players improves by hitting a god awful amount of balls with little corrections, so clinics and classes are the staple of most developing players. I think kids can do one-on-one once or twice a week, with 3 high ball volume classes and develop great skills. Don't forget fitness and agility!
- If you are comfortable with your coach and an academy, you might still go to other clinics, or even eventually look at other places, but it isn't always required. That really is personal preference. Again, as much as you might want to see huge leaps and bounds of progress, and you might blame a coach and want to move when you don't see it every time, development is NOT linear and you have to rely on the coaches knowledge and program as well as your own desires for your kids. Personally, I like the variety of input my son gets from different coaches, but I make sure they all know what the other coaches are respectively working on as well. So my son's match play coach doesn't give too many specific technique comments, knowing the other coach has that. At other academies and clinics, it is very cool to try some of the tweaks and other things they promote, but ultimately we bring them back to his normal coaches to see what they think.
- Money...be prepared to spend some. How much depends on how involved you want to be. I can say, yes, coaching and academies are worth the money if they are good, but I can also say that you don't need to always spend as much if you are willing to get out and toss/feed balls (a BOATLOAD of balls very often) for your kid. I am lucky that I ask my coaches for 'one thing' to work on with my son when hitting, or one drill, and then I can go have him practice it.
Looks great. Reminds me of my son at that age. Love the happy feet.
I'm not a coach but a couple of low hanging fruit--easy fixes:
1. On the forehand, keep the left hand on the racquet longer then point the left hand parallel to the baseline when the hands separate. This will help promote the shoulder/unit turn on the forehand which he'll need for a great forehand as he gets older.
2. Although he has happy feet, there's very little split step between shots. Maybe the feeds are too fast so he just doesn't have time to split? Try slowing down the feed and make sure he split steps.
If you decide to make these corrections, I would start with hand feeding so you and he can concentrate on the corrections before going back to racquet feeding. Otherwise kids at that age just do whatever they have to do to get the ball across the net!
I would also advise participating in other sports at this age to develop an overall athletic base which will payoff in the long run. My son played baseball until 7 or 8 and soccer until 9 or 10 (I wished he had kept the soccer a bit longer). He's now 12 and beating kids (who used to beat him) that have focused exclusively on tennis since they were little without much difficulty.
digidoc15
New User
Thanks Chaelaz. Your post is very helpful. My boys play other sports too and I'm prepared if they lose interest. I do have a private coach coming every alternate week, but it's mostly me doing the drills and coaching till a certain extent. One intention is to save money the other is to spend more time with them.
You are absolutely right on the minimal improvements after tons of balls. But honestly I'm surprised because I was expecting the improvement to be slower considering they are kids. I'm realizing kids are faster learners as they don't have old habits to break and are brave at trying new things. I'm loving this journey. Thanks again, appreciate the time you took to post.
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digidoc15
New User
Thanks 3kids. I will definitely follow your tips. I was hand feeding in this drill and generally keep the ball frequency low but he wanted to see how many balls he could hit in a minute. I'm working on cleaning his forehand and footwork now so will definitely look into what you wrote. He also does martial arts and some swimming. Now in the summer he started basketball. Tennis is the constant game, the others keep changing.
I'm getting a little concerned about his constant running on hard courts and will appreciate if you can give some advice. He loves the hard court more than clay and he loves to run and hit. I do make him do a proper warm up. Are there any shoes or any practices you would recommend to minimize any injuries? Thanks
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You are lucky! We've never had access to clay courts; my son would have loved to run and slide around all these years on clay.
My son's been lucky no injuries thus far, probably another benefit of doing different sports from what I read. Several of his contemporaries are already dealing with arm and shoulder issues.
I wouldn't worry too much about injuries from hard court at that age unless he's doing more than 8-10 hrs/week which he shouldn't be doing anyways. No special shoes; we do a good dynamic warm up before each practice. Also plenty of elastic band work--though this may be too early for your son, I don't know.
It's a wonderful sport but be aware now that it gets VERY expensive as kids progress to higher levels. Not only training costs but tournament travel costs are crazy. Although he's qualified for the national tourneys (United States), we've only played in the Winter Nationals since it was within driving distance for us. Other kids are traveling all around the country playing National selection, hard courts, clay courts, etc. It's easy to drop $2-3k to play each of these tournaments. Add it up and a lot of these parents are spending $20-50k/year starting in the 12s! Anyways I'm getting sidetracked.
Good luck!
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TCF
Guest
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digidoc15
New User
I guess Gabriela looks like a chicken too.. And Rick macci had no idea what he's doing.
TCF I highly appreciate your positive input but don't appreciate the tone. It's not all about technique, sometimes it's also about what the kids want. And not all balls were high. I'll appreciate if you remember next time that you are talking about someone's kid and be more respectful.
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Sorry to butt in but you may want to consider Macci's drill intention. Gabriela doesn't look like a chicken and Macci does know what he's doing. Keep in mind that Gabriela Price has very well developed strokes. See how her technique doesn't break down even under time pressure (except for maybe one of the forehands). Also notice she still split steps ever so quickly between feeds. It's fleeting but she does split step which is critical at high levels. We've used this drill in various forms but the intention of the drill is to develop fast racquet head speed and quick first step all the while keeping correct form and footwork.
For what it's worth, here's a few other suggestions (again I'm not a coach, just an invested parent!):
1. I would not do this drill too much with your kids until their strokes and footwork are more developed. It's fine to throw it in here and there to keep practice fun which is important but too often risks ingraining poor technique and footwork.
2. Try to stress correct technique and footwork while they're young and developing and not stress results at these ages. Good fundamentals will pay off big time down the road. It's not impossible but very hard and time consuming to correct flaws once ingrained.
3. I would stand closer to the player when hand feeding. Notice the difference in distance between feeder and player in your video vs Macci
digidoc15
New User
I absolutely agree with you 3kids. The drill might be completely off and like you said can mess his game. I will follow your suggestions and make the necessary changes. But then I will not entertain disrespectful comments for my son from anyone. If he continues loving the game he has enough time to improve and I'll make sure he does. Thanks, appreciate your input.
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pfrischmann
Professional
I agree, there are more similarities between Federer's forehand and Rafa's than there are differences but that nuance could be lost on most 6 year olds and most adults for that matter.
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TCF
Guest
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dblsplayer
Guest
My best advice is to not listen to advice from this board. As you can see, everyone knows, but no one agrees.
digidoc15
New User
You know what TCF I was thinking today that I'm being a little too defensive about my son. And no I don't mind the 'slow down' and understand the difference between apples and oranges. But I did find your analogy disturbing. I did change the drill today itself and fed less balls just in the strike zone focusing more on the forehand. I do know I need to learn and implement changes in training and my or my kids behavior to help them progress. But I'm new to this and I'm still learning. I'm glad you replied and you changed my perception about the intent of your previous post.
I do have a question and I'll appreciate if you or anyone in the forum can help, I know his forehand is not right, could you advise me what I should focus on? Is it too early to teach him the lag and snap action? Are clay courts better for training than hard courts at this age? I won't be able to practice with them on clay in winters as we'll just have the indoor hard courts available. I'm planning to add drills focusing on footwork, any advice? Thanks for the reply..
Edit: I started emphasising on the split step. He's finding it difficult to implement, but I'm positive he'll get there.
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digidoc15
New User
Thanks for the post dbls. I'll keep your words in mind. I think we always get mixed advice everywhere. I'll try to focus on the genuine, helpful ones. Sometimes we learn the best things even in the worst places. I understand most won't agree on things clearly visible.. Be in forum or in life. Thanks again
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This may sound like a broken record but you need to focus on fundamentals.
Forehand:
1. Grip—semi-western, they may/may not migrate to western with time depending on preference. BTW, if you keep feeding balls high out of strike zone, they're going migrate to western grip VERY quickly and it's difficult to go back!
2. Take back—racquet head up, unit/shoulder turn
3. Load position—palm down, weight on back/outside leg, upper body coil
4. Swing—unload from ground, pull butt of racquet, low to high swing path, contact point in front
5. Finish—start with Landsdorp finish for now but will have many types of finish later depending on court position, ball, and intention
Footwork:
1. There are infinite drills out there. Look on youtube, but again focus on the fundamentals. Basically get into position behind the ball with good loading, unload, recover with split step, repeat.
2. Love doing the X drill with my kids. You can start by pretending to hand feed but not actually throwing the ball so they focus on footwork: get into correct position, loading, unloading, recovery with split step, etc instead of trying to hit the ball.
Obviously this is just a brief outline but should keep you occupied for a while. It's not hard to teach or perform but it's a long process until ingrained so don't expect quick results. There are no short cuts, magic tips, or quick fixes. There may be some phenoms out there but by and large most have spent hours on the court with good instruction.
Also going on these internet forums once in while is fine but a lot of advice on these forums need vetting to see if they're any good (mine included). You seem to be an involved parent who's just starting so don't have a lot of knowledge yet. I was the same way at the beginning. I can't count the number of poorly understood drills I've done with the kids over the years. If you want to maximize their potential though, I hope you have a good coach working with them developing these fundamentals. You also should attend the lessons to learn and there's plenty of books/videos. There's a number of youtube videos of Macci nicely breaking down the forehand and serve. None of this is hard to learn, you just have to pay attention. Then you can use this knowledge to work with them yourself or at least evaluate whether the coach is good or not.
digidoc15
New User
Thanks 3kids I highly appreciate your detailed post. I have been working on a lot of things you mentioned. He is doing some of them, not perfectly I know. I will keep in mind the tips. Like you said it's a very slow process and I don't like rushing the whole process. I'll make sure to keep the balls low. I have watched Rick Maccis videos on YouTube. I've joined some online courses and consult with a coach regularly.
I get confused on how much to teach him now at this age. He plays other sports but likes tennis more. He's just six, if I complicate things too much for him, he might lose interest. I try to keep the fun part more important. I'm sure there are many kids doing better than him at his age, but I see so many kids quit tennis. It's tough keeping a balance, but that is my priority. Thanks again.
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