It seems like on TV, the pros are hitting pretty flat first serves and kick second serves, with the occasional slice thrown in. As I improved as a kid, coaches always told me you want to always have some kind of spin on all of your serves, basically don't hit a completely flat serve because its less consistent. So do the pros hit totally flat first serves or is there some kind of slice on them? What are they doing?
ATP player's first serves?
- Thread starter atac
- Start date
Not slice. But I mean, there's no such thing as a completely flat ball with no spin. They all do have some margin of spin, but you would call most of their first serves "flat".
There's many types of serves though, not just flat, kick, and spin. There's topspin serves, topslice, etc etc. Lots of variations.
There's many types of serves though, not just flat, kick, and spin. There's topspin serves, topslice, etc etc. Lots of variations.
Taller pros and pros who have precise serves can hit lots of flats for first serves.
Shorter pros tend to hit with more spin, to start the game of physical attrition.
True, a pure flat ball is hard to hit. It dives at the last moment, like a baseball knuckleball, then bounces really high.
Play the percentages. If you're losing lots of points from your serve, better change up.
Shorter pros tend to hit with more spin, to start the game of physical attrition.
True, a pure flat ball is hard to hit. It dives at the last moment, like a baseball knuckleball, then bounces really high.
Play the percentages. If you're losing lots of points from your serve, better change up.
The better servers of average stature (aka, not Karlovic) hit with a tremendous amount of spin. To put up the big numbers, they flatten things out, but when it gets to pinpoint accuracy, there's so much action on it that it's frightening. If you note Roddick in particular, he used to consistently put up 140s all of the time. If you watch now, his average speed has dropped into the high 120s to 130s. Why? Coach told him to load up the ball with spin instead of blasting flat bombs. The result? Huge serves with huge action, better accuracy and better consistency.
mightyrick
Legend
My flat serve is my most inconsistent serve. It probably is about 40-50%. However, when my flat serve stays in... it is about 90% that I'm going to win the point. Either on a return error or on a putaway of a weak/floater/block return.
I disagree with your coach. You should mix up your first serves a lot. Sometimes go flat, sometimes go top/slice, sometimes kick. Sometimes hit really hard. Sometimes take pace off the ball. The worst kind of serve is a predictable serve.
I'm not sure what you're watching, but I see the pros mixing up a lot of their first serves. Sometimes slice. Sometimes flat. Sometimes up the T. Sometimes out wide. Sometimes to the body.
Keep a flat in your arsenal. If it is too low percentage for you, then only pull it out when you're up 40-0. Or perhaps if you're way ahead in a set... you can pull it out a few times.
My flat serve is good enough to get me free points against legit 4.5 players even if I don't place it quite right. I've seen the ball hit the back fence rising sometimes, so I know it ain't slow, but I've never had a radar to measure the speed. But when I go against USTA 5.0 players (I always lose, but manage a few games), very often my flat serves come back at me before I can recover. Therefore I'm forced to put some kick or slice on my first serve. Something about the spin makes it less predictable so I get an easier return to deal with, and it also gives me more time to recover, and even S&V once in a while. So I'm not really a fan of flat serves any more, and I am working to get my lead feet moving a little faster to deal with those returns.
Also, when I go against guys who just block the returns, the purely flat serve becomes a liability for me, because it's just so hard to run down well placed returns. Against these guys, I just hit second serves with a ton of spin as hard as I can. It's fun to watch the expression on the returner's face when he blocks it and the ball flies out...
Also, when I go against guys who just block the returns, the purely flat serve becomes a liability for me, because it's just so hard to run down well placed returns. Against these guys, I just hit second serves with a ton of spin as hard as I can. It's fun to watch the expression on the returner's face when he blocks it and the ball flies out...
If you find that a hard, flat serve is most effective against your opponent, even if you hit it to the same spot every time, keep doing it. If they can return that well, but can't handle your slice serve, do that more often. Whatever you can serve at a high percentage and that hurts your opponent more is your best bet.
T
TheMagicianOfPrecision
Guest
I think most players mixes it up really well since the returners are so good they simply HAVE to. Short and simple.
tennis_balla
Hall of Fame
Your coach is correct, as spin = control (on an stroke)
Yeah, I used to hit a completely flat serve and I could get some serious MPH on it and when it went in I pretty much always won the point.
I know pros mix up their serves but I just didn't know if they would ever hit a true flat serve since its such high risk.
Pros hit LOADS of spin on 1st serves. Search web for yandell sampras serve analysis to see a write-up of Pete's serve. Research showed that Pete had about 2,500 rpm on his 1st serve and around 3,000 rpm on 2nd serve. It also showed Pete's serves had a steeper more vertical rotation than most. The steeper angle caused the serve to drop more and bounce higher than most other serves which allowed Pete to have >50% rate on 1st serve and to slam 2nd serves almost as hard as 1st serves. This is the best serve in history. Some pros described returning it as trying to return a basketball because it was so heavy with spin and speed. if you didn't hit it clean in the center it would just twist off your stringbed and you had no control of the return.
Fed, Nadal, and even Isner (6'9"") all spin 1st serves. The difference is degrees of spin.
FYB research shows a person around 5'9" can not get a straight line serve into the service box from their maximum contact point. At 5'9" tall the best you can do is clip the service line which is about 3" wide. So, if you do not bend the serve in the air, you have 3" margin of error a 5'9" tall. A 6'9" person actually has about 7' of service box available for a straight line (serve does not bend) to hit into but the available net clearance is still relatively small. To be about to clear the net by 10-20", you must bend the serve to get it to go into the box regularly. There are 2 ways to bend a serve in the air: 1. SPIN, and 2. gravity. For gravity to take effect, you have to hit the slow patty cake serve to allow gravity time to pull it down. So, your best option is to "bend it like Beckum" and put significant spin on the ball.
Ocassionally, I have run across a very tall player with just a little spin that could get more than 50% of their serves in but it is rare. And, even these players had a little spin. The best serves I have faced have significant spin on 1st and even more spin on 2nd serves.
The vast majority of players that hit hard, flat (see the PENN logo as it flys by) serves have a 1st serve success rate around 10-20% which will get you killed at higher levels.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
The flatter you hit your serve, the smaller the margin for error and the lower percentage of serves are going to go in. IMO, pros rarely hit truly flat serves. They almost always have a lot of topspin or slice on the ball, even first serves, to give the ball some movement and help it clear the net and land in the box. Taller players like Isner, Karlovic, Querry, etc. may hit truly flat serves from time to time because they have a built in greater margin for error. But, I would think even they hit lots of spin on their first serves most of the time.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
There are no true flat serves as some have already mentioned. A flat serve is one that would have a low spin-to-speed ratio. In the late 90s, Tim Henman had one of the flattest first serves. He could hit it at 120 mph with about 1500 rpm. Pete Sampras averaged about 2700 rpm on his 120 mph first serve.
If that same 2700 rpm was present on an 60 mph serve, it would not be considered flat at all. Sampras could average more than 4600 rpm on his 2nd serve (~ 85 mph). At times he could exceed 5000 rpm on his serve. Pete's serves were considered one of the heaviest serves due largely to all that spin on his first and second serves.
http://wings.avkids.com/Tennis/Project/usspin-07.html
I watched Isner live last year from courtside and he hits a lot of spin on his first serve. Maybe the rare bomb would have just a little spin but I don't think any of his serves are really flat.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Thanks! Makes sense!
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Thanks! Some amazing, revealing, stats there!
Right, so exactly what type of spin are they using on those big first serves? I'm assuming they are mostly side spin (or slice) in order to get that kind of pace. It seems really difficult to hit that big of a serve using topspin, kick or some kind of variation, although I'm far from a pro so maybe they really can do that.
Spin is 8 to 2 o'clock on Sampras' serve. I think this is fairly common.
Look at this: http://www.****************.com/showthread.php?t=114696 TW censored the URL but you can find it - excerpt below - search for yandell sampras serve. Sampras was a tall lanky guy and could have hit a flat ball but spin was the key to success for him. Even 135 serves down the middle have a lot of bend in them - you can see them bend into the court and curve again after the bounce. The bend you see on TV isn't caused by gravity but it is caused by ball rotation.
From Yandell's analysis of Sampras serve (see site above):
Research based on quantitative filming in actual match play reveals that Sampras achieves phenomenal spin rates. This is what sets his serve apart. It’s probably best understood as a high-velocity kick.
Throughout his career, the speed on his first serve typically ranged between 115 mph and 130 mph—fast, but not the fastest even in his own day. What distinguished his delivery was the total amount of spin, and especially the type of spin, compared to other pros. Research shows that Sampras was averaging over 2500 rpm of total spin on his first serve. That’s a phenomenal amount of rotation. It’s 50 percent more spin than many other servers with similar velocities. Just rev up the tachometer on your car to 2500 rpm if you want to feel how much force this involves.
The research also shows that as important, or more important than the total amount of spin is the type of spin. Of particular importance is the topspin component. First, it’s important to realize that a pure topspin serve is a myth. The research conclusively demonstrates that the majority of the spin on all serves is sidespin.
Yet we found that on average, Sampras’ topspin component was 35 percent, much higher than other servers we measured. To use the familiar analogy of a clock face, his ball was spinning from 8 o’clock to 2 o’clock. This diagonal was steeper than any other player we studied. So the factors that make Sampras’ serve appear different are more total spin, and especially, more topspin. The higher topspin component means that the ball is significantly higher and heavier at the time of the return. The data showed that Sampras’ serve bounced six inches higher than a serve hit at the same speed with a smaller topspin component. The ball height at the moment of the return could be above five feet. That puts the ball at about shoulder height for a player who is six feet tall.
Sampras’ serve also was literally heavier because it was spinning up to 20 percent faster after the bounce. The physics of the ball bounce on the court surface are complex. But, suffice it to say, a ball coming into the bounce with more topspin will interact with the court differently, conserve more of the energy in the serve, and leave the court with additional spin compared to a ball at a similar speed but with more sidespin.
This is the secret of the so-called “heavy” serve and why Sampras’ ball just looks different. The total amount of spin and the relatively high amount of topspin make the return much tougher because the ball is bouncing higher and spinning significantly faster at contact. A former tour player once compared trying to return Sampras’ serve to trying to return a bowling ball. To him it seemed physically impossible with a tennis racquet.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
TennisCJC, thanks for the excerpt of the Yandell analysis of the Sampras serve (from Mens Tennis Forums .com). The topspin aspect of the heavy ball makes a lot of sense. The effects of side spin are primarily seen in the trajectory of the ball prior to the bounce. From what I understand, side spin has little or no effect on the bounce whereas topspin can have dramatic effects on post bounce spin and post-bounce trajectory.
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
it sounds like you are fairly new to the game. almost 99.99% of first flat serves have huge amounts of spin to them. just not as much as the 2nd deliveries.
I've been playing for 14 years, just not on the pro tour... hence my question. I was more curious about what type of spin they were using on first serves, but now I know.
