BB, M Khan, Yandell - Gamesmanship or illegal???

[cervelo]

A prior post has me all shook up ... so I'm bringing it to the forefront to get some feedback as to your opinions of "gamesmanship" and "cheating."

First, my need to author this post came about from another "pusher post" - and the usual responses ... in my tennis development, I routinely played 4.0 pusher- he pushed because he liked to push, but this guy could volley and crack winners also. He also took everything on the rise- often using a forehand slap which was perfectly disguised. He was/is absolutely frustrating to play, but I found a way to get to him.

In my experience, I've come across a variety of "pushers," and I've found that they tend to fall into a personality type that I feel makes them predictable. They don't like confrontation- they love pace and, especially, rhythm. Universally, they HATE to lose, which I believe is why they don't "take chances" and "push."

Importantly, I've felt that pushers always make some effort (whether intentional or not) to annoy their opponent. I believe this effort serves their interest in winning a match. For example, in pre-match discussions, they'll downplay their game against yours- or they'll call balls with a certain tone in their voice- or they'll discuss their results against a certain player. I believe all of these actions somehow create pressure in the mind of the pusher's opponent, setting them up for a loss.

I counter these efforts by making the pusher feel pressure with what I call "gamesmanship." Others call me a cheater- and I extremely object. I've never been called a cheater (except on this website) and I've never gotten into as much as an argument with any opponent ever. Here's what I call gamesmanship:

Pushers seem to play quickly. As a result, against a pusher, I intentionally break up rhythm- take my "reasonable" time between his/her service points- the delay is minimal and subtle, but purposeful. I have found that pushers generally have a weak serve, especially a 2nd serve, and they are quite self-conscious about it. I look forward to returning against a pusher- so much so that I might slightly smile while setting up for my return. It's part smile-part grimace, carried over from the time between points. I've found that smiling loosens me up and (probably) sends a message to the server. To be certain, it's not a wide grin- it's absolutely subtle, but noticeable.

Another example is my use of innocuous banter between points- if a pusher is dinking short, or doing something repeatedly (and perhaps, successfully), I'll let them know that I'm onto the strategy- "He better not keep goin' to that shot ..." I'll say to myself so that they hear it. or, suppose I miss a sitter, I'll let 'em know that "Okay, Christmas is over ..."

Importantly, if I hit a great shot, I celebrate it, ESPECIALLY on a big point. I celebrate it so they see me celebrate it. It's not done in any obnoxious manner that might be discourteous, but I make sure it's obvious.

I also believe that the gamesmanship tactics that I describe above are legal and, in fact, predominant in competitive tennis. They are especially noticeable in the minor leagues (where I've seen players verbally jab each other all match and then, afterwards, sit together and discuss their strategy & offer advice to each other for future matches).

So, is it gamesmanship or cheating???

 

[TwistServe]

Why is this question directed to BB, M Khan, Yandell.. this is a no brainer.

 

[cervelo]

Because of the level of heat I'm taking in a prior thread ...

Is it a no brainer ???

 

[TwistServe]

I think you can take a gun on the court, point it to your opponent, and then tell them if they push at you again, you're going to "push" the trigger...

You'll get in trouble with the police but you'll win your match when they withdrawl.

 

[kevhen]

You can celebrate all the big points you win against me, but I will make you work for them all as would most pushers who are strong mentally and don't care about your emotional state. You may play better in that emotionally state so it may help you but I doubt it hurts the pusher any who will keep working hard as they only know to do. You do need to play with confidence against a pusher, but all your grinning might be a little much, sort of like Hingis when she was #1, but if it makes you a better player and you aren't interested in becoming friends with your opponent then go for it.

If my opponent is cheering when he makes a big shot, then deep down I know he is worried about losing to me, so that will keep me focused and into the match. It's when he is hitting winners like nothing big happened, then I know I am in trouble. That's how the 4.5 and 5.0 act when they play me. It's the 3.5s who celebrate big winners and occasionally 4.0s in a tight match.

 

[cervelo]

Thanks Twist- but I think the shooter would default under the courtesy part of the Code.

kevhen, I understand your strategy, and, like I said, my pusher partner has absolutely no beef with me in all the years we've played.

But is it cheating?

 

[TwistServe]

Crev: there really is no courtesy code really.. if its written courtesy its subjective at best..

Best way to win a match when you're down: Hit all the balls out of the court over the fence as hard as you can.. and make your opponent go get them LoL.. if he chooses not to, then he can't serve out the match and must withdrawl, therefore you win

Tennis players by nature are arrogant pr1icks that want to double begal and embarass their opponent as much as possible.

Yesterday I played a match with a guy I normally play with and usually beat.. he was getting frustrated because he couldnt return my first or second serves.. i told him it's not his fault.. my serve is too good

 

[cervelo]

Twist:

I play inside a lot so the balls don't go that far ...

I'm thinkin' you and I are up there for instigators of the year ...

I'm an even bigger barrel of laughs when I'm the guy who can't return serve ...

 

[Kobble]

You can play all the mental games you want, and yes, it is legal, but nothing makes up for superior strokes. If you want to beat pushers(or anyone else) learn to hit big topspin shot shots deep. Most pushers will never take the ball early so you wind up driving them way behind the baseline. From there, their lack of pace makes winners nearly impossible, and my winners far more likely. In addition, it gives you more time to get to shots, which is helpful if the pusher is a better mover than you. You gain all of those benefits while keeping your unforced errors to a minimum. That is the way I handle it.

 

[cervelo]

I understand the strategy and my strokes are now at a level where I can dictate with spin and variety- I absolutely agree that strategically, the responses to pusher posts are on target.

However, like all of us at some point, my strokes weren't always sharp and, at the time, I needed to find a different focus to deter my opponent. I found it in what I describe above. (not to say I still don't use gamesmanship tactics as I still believe that they exist at all levels- even if only to derive self-confidence and dissipate pressure). My silly tactics definitely keep me loose and enjoying the game.

 

[dennis10is]

re:beat them with your game

Cervelo,

It sounds to me that you are affected by the behavior of your opponents and you want to affect them in kind. Why not learn to not be affected by your opponents antics and settle the issue only by playing straight up tennis?

From your post, you don't want to be considered a cheater but there is another social component to this situation. The other player around you will pick it up and some will think hey, this person plays head games outside of the court and outside of the game situation. Do I want to hang out with this person? I'm guessing that you do want to be considered a "good bloke".

IMHO, the person who practiced the best gamesmanship was Borg. He did nothing except played and competed at the highest level. Sampras was similar and now so is Federer.

 

[TwistServe]

IMHO, the person who practiced the best gamesmanship was Borg. He did nothing except played and competed at the highest level. Sampras was similar and now so is Federer.

Federer's gamesmanship is debatable. He's been known to yell come'on on his opponents mistakes, and has talked trash about his opponent prematch. He talks about how he fears nobody, that he's #1 for a reason, etc. Some of it may be pride, some of it may be gamesmanship. He also loves taking rain delays when he's down to regroup and restrategize.. All of this can be considered gamesmanship.

 

[cervelo]

Dennis:

It's funny that you bring it up because people actually enjoy playing with me. When I describe it as gamesmanship, it's probably misinterpreted. It's light-hearted, but intense at the same time- never discourteous, ever.

kevhen made a great point which I never gave as much weight than is deserved- when I do what I describe, it keeps me loose and really enjoying the game. It may be that it raises my focus and level than it drags down my opponent's level - I'll hafta think about that one.

I'm guessing what I call gamesmanship probably looks more like a player having fun on a tennis court- razzing his opponent- seemingly cocky but not really serious at all ...

 

[cervelo]

Don't kid yourself, Sampras was a gamer.

Remember what he said separated his game and Rafter's?

Remember who he said was the best serve and volleyer when Rafter won the Open in '98?

Remember how Sampras would control the tempo between points? Mary Carillo and P Mac would joke about the umpire's unwillingness to warn him.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

It's legal. It's only gamesmanship.

- KK

 

[Indiantwist]

I dont consider celebration of points/winners a big deal. Tennis like some of other games goes only as fast as "slowest" of the players.

If my opponent celebrates on a point. I dont mind. All i care about is am i having fun on court. I know for a fact that if iam having fun, i usually win.

I have even deliberately tanked a few points in the match (knowing fully well that there is a open court for a run around forehand down the line winner, i try a drop shot of some low percentage backhand shot) and let opponents get into the match. Sometimes I lost. Most of my matches are club\recreational level and there is always tommorow.

The point iam trying to make is, as long as one stays within the rules of game and conduct of the game, its all good.

 

[Tennis Ball Hitter]

LOL, one of the guys I play with does similar things. ie

- tells me I should have come in to the net for that point after he wins it [he has a good lob, not topspin, but its always deep]
- will sometimes grunt when he plays a lob/dropshot/dinky serve
- grunts after he hits the ball
- throws in quick underarm serves for 2nd serves when he misses the first [its almost like the two serves are done in one stroke]
- when he loses a couple of points in a row he'll bash the ball (not over the fence) but so that he'll have to fetch it.

he doesn't talk or say things like "better not do that shot again" while I am about to hit the ball. Which is probably the only thing in your first post which I think is "cheating". But the grunt he does after he hits the ball is pretty close.

I lose to him all the time, but I don't really have a problem with his gamemanship. I think I just expect it now and I smile a bit and say to myself "He's doing that trick this time". But we are on the same team so I only play with him "socially", so I am usually quite relaxed.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

A prior post has me all shook up ... so I'm bringing it to the forefront to get some feedback as to your opinions of "gamesmanship" and "cheating."

It is a good thing that you are concerned whether your antics are coming across as a form of cheating. It tells me you are a good player and use whatever is available to you to get in your opponents mind to disrupt his game without violating any rules.

Importantly, I've felt that pushers always make some effort (whether intentional or not) to annoy their opponent. I believe this effort serves their interest in winning a match. For example, in pre-match discussions, they'll downplay their game against yours- or they'll call balls with a certain tone in their voice- or they'll discuss their results against a certain player. I believe all of these actions somehow create pressure in the mind of the pusher's opponent, setting them up for a loss.

LOL, pushers play a very effective mental game. They hit balls in such a way as to make you hit ALL your balls out of your strike zone and off balance. They will "use" low balls, high balls, angled balls, slow balls, fast balls, short balls, deep balls, everything to disrupt your timing, your positioning, and your footwork. They want their ball to play you. They want to string you around like a puppet.

In club tennis, disrupting the footwork of a player is one of the easiest ways to test the patience and balance of a persons shots more then anything else. A lot can be learned from this strategy.

There is nothing wrong with intimidating your opponent. Look at Nadal and Sharapova! For goodness sakes, at the coin toss Nadal looked like he was ready to hit his opponent with an uppercut by the way he looked and was bouncing around.

If I were your coach, I would want you to never be intimidated by someone elses little head games. In fact, you better be the one doing the intimidating. They need to see you in shape. They need to see you eager to get this thing done. They need to see in your eyes, you are ready to crush anything that gets in your way to win.

I counter these efforts by making the pusher feel pressure with what I call "gamesmanship." Others call me a cheater...:

Pushers seem to play quickly. As a result, against a pusher, I intentionally break up rhythm- take my "reasonable" time between his/her service points- the delay is minimal and subtle, but purposeful.

Nothing wrong with that. Is it cheating to make Shaq shoot freethrows in the last minutes of the game? No, it is not cheating. It is taking advantage of the rules and the situation. The rules did change because of this, but it still has not stopped the strategy of getting Shaq to the line to shoot freethrows! He is weak in this area, and as a coach, I would do the same darn thing. Neutralize their weapon anyway possible.

Is grunting cheating then? I think so. I dislike grunters especially those that say they can't play unless they are able to do it. Nonsense. Grunting also happens DURING a point. What could be more controversial? The things you are doing is not cheating.

This is where I separate the "hitters" from the "players". Mental intimidation, emotional intimidation, physical intimidation, and technical intimidation should be in the complete competitive players package. Hitters only want to hit. They fail to see the other "games" going on and usually lose to someone who can unravel their one dimensional game. Don't be like them. Play to win and use your weapons - that includes your ability to sense shifts in areas that go largely undetected by the blind and simple.

MacEnroe, Lendl, Borg, Conners, Graf, Agassi, Nadal, Federer, geeez the list goes on. They all utilized every rule and situation to their advantage to win. Some had the face of an inpenetratable robot. One shouted "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!". Another got the crowd so pumped up with fists flying in the air at the age of 40, it was like a tidal wave of mental and emotional suppression on the opponent. Players have used injury timeouts and other delays to disrupt their opponents rythym and elevate theirs throughout the history of the game.

Sometimes things can be border line. But if a pusher ever started to quick serve me, I do not return the point. I stop and yell, TIMEOUT! I make sure I address it clearly that I will not play my game under their terms. I will purposely slow down my rythym for my serve if need be. I am allowed to serve at a slower pace so long as I don't abuse the timeframe allowed within the rules.

I have found that pushers generally have a weak serve, especially a 2nd serve, and they are quite self-conscious about it. I look forward to returning against a pusher- so much so that I might slightly smile while setting up for my return. It's part smile-part grimace, carried over from the time between points. I've found that smiling loosens me up and (probably) sends a message to the server. To be certain, it's not a wide grin- it's absolutely subtle, but noticeable.

Nothing wrong with smiling and winning! If Nadal can look like he is about to murder his opponent, you can smile. Smile away. You might want to say "give me your best shot" along with that smile.

Another example is my use of innocuous banter between points- if a pusher is dinking short, or doing something repeatedly (and perhaps, successfully), I'll let them know that I'm onto the strategy- "He better not keep goin' to that shot ..." I'll say to myself so that they hear it. or, suppose I miss a sitter, I'll let 'em know that "Okay, Christmas is over ..."

If a player is allowed to GRUNT LOUDLY THROUGHOUT A POINT, you are allowed to say whatever you wish after a point (whithin reason of course). You can raise your fist and shout "COME ONNNNNNNNNNNNN". You can look at your opponent with all the dislike you can muster. Just beware, so can your opponent! As much as you try to intimidate, your opponent will be doing the same. Defeat can be very discouraging during those times.

Importantly, if I hit a great shot, I celebrate it, ESPECIALLY on a big point. I celebrate it so they see me celebrate it. It's not done in any obnoxious manner that might be discourteous, but I make sure it's obvious.

EXCESSIVE celebration is viewed as unsportsman like conduct. It is a penalty in the National Football League to make an excessive demonstration in the end zone after a touchdown. But celebration within reason is perfectly acceptable. In a team sports, it gets your teammates motivated, encouraged, and excited. Perfectly fine.

In individual sports like surfing, it gets you pumped up for the challenge of surfing a bigger wave when you celebrate something you did well. When someone gets tubed on a wave that is bigger then they normally surf, there is a lot of cause for celebration. The hands raise to the sky and the fists clench with a big "YES" following. Safins coach did it when Safin took it to SCUD at Wimbledon and so should you.

Nothing wrong with that in tennis. You should celebrate your shots both internally and sometimes externally. If you do it too much, people may end up not liking you too much and it could be viewed as "rubbing salt in a wound". Or "kicking someone when he is down". This can backfire on you and is something you should not do if you are doing this intentionally.

believe that the gamesmanship tactics that I describe above are legal and, in fact, predominant in competitive tennis. They are especially noticeable in the minor leagues (where I've seen players verbally jab each other all match and then, afterwards, sit together and discuss their strategy & offer advice to each other for future matches).

So, is it gamesmanship or cheating???

It is not cheating so long as you are within the rules of the game. It goes into the area of sportsmanship. There is nothing wrong with doing what you are doing. I encourage it - up to a point. In the end, you need to shake hands with your opponent, look them in the eye, and respect them as a person and as one willing to challenge you.

However, when the game is on, the game face comes on and you play to win. Just do it within the rules.

 

[cervelo]

Let me be clear, talking DURING the point is illegal and I deem it to be cheating. I never do that.

Also, grunting with a ball on the other side of the net is crap - catch the ball and call a let the first time, and again the 2nd time, with a point penalty warning - (even though I think the Code allows a point penalty).

Whether you impose the point penalty of the Code or not "GET YOUR OPPONENT THINKING ABOUT IT!" Get him off balance by enforcing the Rules. The Code is tennis "law" but can also be a weapon to the educated player. You can use it to win.

Also, bashing the ball 5 courts over is a violation - and now he wants to make you wait while he retrieves it- sit down, make him wait after he gets back- (make a friggin' cell phone call - Just kidding (maybe))

 

[kevhen]

So whose job is it to fetch balls over the fence? I usually get them especially if they are closer to me but if my opponent intentionally hit them over I would make them get the ball especially if it happened more than once unless it was in tournament play then I would accept the free points and play on. If my opponent spiked a weak lob over the fence then I would get it since it was my weak lob that caused the delay.

Grunting is something I only do when putting all my energy into getting the ball over especially when returning heavy kick serves where I am fighting to get over the ball and get as much pace on the ball as possible usually when playing doubles. Players hitting with all their energy especially those at the pro level seem to grunt alot but it does seem like Sharapova grunts a bit too loudly to be a natural grunt, it's more like a scream to distract her opponents.

 

[cervelo]

kehven:

Your grunt is perfectly acceptable IMHO.

But I've played many guys with what I call the "split-step grunt." You and I know that the rally split step is timed right about when your opponent hits his shot- these grunters kinda suck-in a grunt at the split step and let it out when they hit.

Violates the Code IMO.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

he doesn't talk or say things like "better not do that shot again" while I am about to hit the ball. Which is probably the only thing in your first post which I think is "cheating".

Any such banter is definitely cheating and unsportsman-like to me.

You wouldn't get me playing the 2nd time any such guys, whether I win or lose the first time.

And I meet very rarely such guys.

 

[TwistServe]

This reminds me of an experience I had long ago when I was a kid..

I went to the local pizza hut to play StreetFighter 2.. A pizzahut worker was currently playing and I joined in to challenge him. I beat him pretty good and he got annoyed.. He stuck in another quarter and I beat him again, this time even faster. He got annoyed and played again. And again I beat him. There was a line waiting to play but he wouldn't step. He probably stuck in 5 dollars in quarters and he was swearing the whole time. He started banging on the arcade machine like he was going to break it. He finally beat me and I left having only spent a quarter lol.

 

[Phil]

Because of the level of heat I'm taking in a prior thread ...

Is it a no brainer ???

Hmmm...I don't recall the thread, but did I, by any chance, post in that thread?

Your pusher friend probably does the little stuff that he does because he knows that it gets to you. Why let this stuff get to you at all? It's never bothered me-just go out and PLAY YOUR GAME. Why sweat the small stuff? If you're doing all this stuff that you say you are to COUNTER what you perceive to be "gamesmanship", then I think YOU have the problem, not him. Why sink to his level?

While I'm pretty certain that everything that you described that both you and he does is within the rules, that doesn't change the fact that you're a complete tool. An imbecile. And the fact that you made this long post and asking everyone "Is this okay???" indicates that you KNOW it isn't okay, to you. Just play the game.

 

[cervelo]

Phil:

Go back and read the posts again- this time read slowly, maybe take notes and try and keep up. I'm sensing that you're an angry pusher and you probably just got smoked.

Gamesmanship IS a part of tennis; it IS part of the game and experienced players know this to be true (don't worry buddy, you can dream). For your information, there are some big tennis names on this board who agree with me (I guess they're "tools" also). I don't make it personal because tennis is ultimate fun for me. My hitting partners consider me to be an enjoyable and polite player. I don't throw racquets or swear. Don't assume that because I use the term gamesmanship that I'm ******* people off- one more time: I'm not abusive or obnoxious- it's the minute jabs and other efforts that competitors may take at each other to gain an edge and knowing "when" and "why" is part of using it as a tactic.

I wrote the thread because I value the opinions on this board (except maybe yours) and was curious for feedback. Once again for you Phil (read out loud and slowly for this next part), I've never had an opponent so much as argue with me over how I play. I call balls in that were likely out but I'm not 100% sure about - I play "lets" to the benefit of my opponent even when the Code doesn't call for it.

But thanks anyway for the name calling- given that you know me so well and all to call me an imbecile. On the internet- that's good stuff ... pretty bold of you- I'm sure you're a big tough guy and I'm worried about what you think of me. I really wish we could meet over coffee and talk more (decaff- for you, cochise ... don't want you to get overly excited).

 

[dennis10is]

Don't kid yourself, Sampras was a gamer.

Remember what he said separated his game and Rafter's?

Remember who he said was the best serve and volleyer when Rafter won the Open in '98?

Remember how Sampras would control the tempo between points? Mary Carillo and P Mac would joke about the umpire's unwillingness to warn him.

I don't remember his comment. Don't really follow the details of what pro athlete say off the courts. I consider Sampras to be the better serve and volleyer betweem him and Rafter even though I loved watching Rafter volley. The records of the two player speaks for themselves. Rafter won 2 US Open and Sampras won how many majors?

I guess you are not a Sampras fan. Anyways, no reason to debate this point.

The point is there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.

 

[Phil]

Phil:

Go back and read the posts again- this time read slowly, maybe take notes and try and keep up. I'm sensing that you're an angry pusher and you probably just got smoked.

Gamesmanship IS a part of tennis; it IS part of the game and experienced players know this to be true (don't worry buddy, you can dream). For your information, there are some big tennis names on this board who agree with me (I guess they're "tools" also). I don't make it personal because tennis is ultimate fun for me. My hitting partners consider me to be an enjoyable and polite player. I don't throw racquets or swear. Don't assume that because I use the term gamesmanship that I'm ******* people off- one more time: I'm not abusive or obnoxious- it's the minute jabs and other efforts that competitors may take at each other to gain an edge and knowing "when" and "why" is part of using it as a tactic.

I wrote the thread because I value the opinions on this board (except maybe yours) and was curious for feedback. Once again for you Phil (read out loud and slowly for this next part), I've never had an opponent so much as argue with me over how I play. I call balls in that were likely out but I'm not 100% sure about - I play "lets" to the benefit of my opponent even when the Code doesn't call for it.

But thanks anyway for the name calling- given that you know me so well and all to call me an imbecile. On the internet- that's good stuff ... pretty bold of you- I'm sure you're a big tough guy and I'm worried about what you think of me. I really wish we could meet over coffee and talk more (decaff- for you, cochise ... don't want you to get overly excited).

I see. Seems like I hit a nerve. Good. As for my game style, I'm not a pusher, but I don't mind playing them-not as much as YOU, obviously.

Yes, gamesmanship "is part of tennis", but unless you're playing at the pro level, where ANY edge is important when a million bucks may be on the line and tennis is your livlihood, then it doesn't mean much. Maybe some expereienced players do it (and all KNOW about it), but not all. If that's what you think, then you're obviously hanging around with a different crowd than I am.

People who feel they have to do this regularly at the amatuer level to, somehow, "get ahead" to me, are tools with no integrity and no principles. Maybe this is your personality-you work on Wall Street, and true to the Gordon Gecko ethos, you have to find a way to "get ahead", a shortcut. That's YOU, buddy. Don't pawn that sh*t off on all experienced players. If you didn't think there was at least SOMETHING amiss with this "style" of play, then you wouldn't have come on a public board, mealy mouthed, hemming and hawing, seeking some sort of collective support for your creepy actions. Now, when someone pipes up and says you're behaving like an a-hole, and you should just play, watch out!!! Run for the hills!!! Yes, this is the Internet-but that just happens to be the medium that we're using now; if it means anything to you, I'd say the same thing to your face, over a friendly cup of coffee-but, and I qualify this-it's only my opinion. But think about it.

 

[cervelo]

No, I'm a huge Sampras fan. It was hard not to be.

But prior to Sampras' match-up with Rafter (I think it was at the Open in 99), they asked Sampras what was the difference between him and Rafter to which he replied: "about 9 grand slams."

Similar to that a year or so earlier, Sampras repeatedly said that he still has the best serve and volley game in tennis -which was a deliberate jab at Rafter, who was on a real tear at the time.

Truth was, in my opinion, Sampras was feeling the heat from Rafter a bit and didn't like it after Pat grabbed the Open title in 97 and subsequently beat Pete in a great match in Cinci in 98 (you might remember that one of Pete's serves went through Pat's string/racquet).

It was great to see that side of Pete because, as we now know, he started to feel a little vulnerable but he was savvy enough to say what he did to pick at Rafter's armor a bit. Good stuff.

You wont get me to trash Sampras though - his gamesmanship was in his prowess much more than his swagger.

 

[darkhorse]

While in does usually come down to who is the better player in tennis, you can't ignore the mental aspect of the game. It is pyschological warfare out there, and it's a pretty important part of your game. Taking your time between points is a good example. You're doing it to collect yourself, but you're also doing it to throw off your opponent's rhythm like you said.

Look at McEnroe. Sure, he was a great player, but his ability to throw off opponents was a major factor in some of his big wins.

 

[Phil]

Truth was, in my opinion, Sampras was feeling the heat from Rafter a bit and didn't like it after Pat grabbed the Open title in 97 and subsequently beat Pete in a great match in Cinci in 98 (you might remember that one of Pete's serves went through Pat's string/racquet).

Sampras WON the match in which he vaporized Rafter's strings. At Cincy, but in 1999.

You wont get me to trash Sampras though - his gamesmanship was in his prowess much more than his swagger.

Exactly. Let your RACQUET do the talking, kind of like what Pete did. Remember, these guys are PROS-they play at a level that we cannot really FATHOM (though many a 3.5 player on this board thinks he has a handle on the pro game). Amatuers copying the gamesmanship of the pros is a turnoff, just as hearing 13 year old juniors screaming like Shriek-apova.

 

[cervelo]

Phil:

Did you read it out loud like I asked you to ... you're missing the connection, so you need to slow down.

I've tried to explain it: Let's just agree that you never saw what I'm calling gamesmanship so you can't even judge it. Other players on this board know what I mean and I value their opinion. The players around me enjoy playing with me because I don't act like you suspect I act. Accept as a given that opposing players do not consider me to be in any way disrespectful toward them.

Regarding my intentions in writing the thread, and probably due to nothing more than misinterpretation, another poster on this forum and I had this discussion and I wanted more input based on his response. This is why I posed the question- I was and still am certain that I wasn't violating the Code (when I tell you it's very subtle, I'm telling you it's subtle!!!) Since the prior thread, the original poster and I agree on the law- which is what I was focused on from the beginning.

But you chime in - shooting off your mouth to start an argument - do me a favor, assume that when I pose a question or thread, that I'm asking for insightful opinions from the many respectable participants on this forum (even the ones I don't agree with- I still value their commentary), but you're not one of them- so move on to someone else's ...

 

[cervelo]

Thank you darkhorse

Thank you!!!!

 

[cervelo]

Phil: you were right about 99 ...See, I was wrong and I admit it.

But I'm think my quotation timeline is correct.

 

[Phil]

Phil:

Did you read it out loud like I asked you to ... you're missing the connection, so you need to slow down.

I've tried to explain it: Let's just agree that you never saw what I'm calling gamesmanship so you can't even judge it. Other players on this board know what I mean and I value their opinion. The players around me enjoy playing with me because I don't act like you suspect I act. Accept as a given that opposing players do not consider me to be in any way disrespectful toward them.

Regarding my intentions in writing the thread, and probably due to nothing more than misinterpretation, another poster on this forum and I had this discussion and I wanted more input based on his response. This is why I posed the question- I was and still am certain that I wasn't violating the Code (when I tell you it's very subtle, I'm telling you it's subtle!!!) Since the prior thread, the original poster and I agree on the law- which is what I was focused on from the beginning.

But you chime in - shooting off your mouth to start an argument - do me a favor, assume that when I pose a question or thread, that I'm asking for insightful opinions from the many respectable participants on this forum (even the ones I don't agree with- I still value their commentary), but you're not one of them- so move on to someone else's ...

Cervelo - I never said that your actions violated the code. I KNOW that the type of gamesmanship that you describe is of a more subtle variety. If you think the fact that what you do, or what you are CONTEMPLATING doing is totally above board merely because it is not specifically cited in the Code, then you can pat yourself on the back for SKIRTING the Code. But, IMO, you lack ethics if you feel that this is what the game is all about-getting away with something, and LEGALLY! Your standards are low.

Yes, I'm sure that when you pose a question, you only want to hear the insightful opinions of other posters (i.e. you want your comments validated), but sorry to break this to you, pal, but this is a PUBLIC message board, so you either have to get over the fact that not everyone will fall into your camp like the lemmings that you expect them to be, or else, put me on your ignore list-yeah, that will solve everything-just like acting like an a-hole, but WHOLLY WITHIN the boundries of the rules and the Code. I think I gave YOU a pretty insightful interpretation. If you can somehow unknot your knickeres and take criticism like an adult, seeing it for what it is, then maybe, one day, you'll understand. But not today, obviously. Got hit the courts now, and chat up your opponents-throw 'em off their game...

 

[SageOfDeath]

Well as for smiling and cheering when you win points I think that's great because it boosts your mental game and makes you feel confident. As for talking in between points that would to me be unsportsmanship-like if you even mummer things like better not do that shot again. Because your opponent may think you are saying something bad behind their back. If you say it out loud "better not do that shot again" that sounds like a threat! Destroying your opponent's mental game is a strategy I've rarely seen and would never do. If I'm facing my opponent I would want him to play at his BEST.

 

[cervelo]

It's part of the game, it's legal - you don't like it or employ it - you'll be beaten by it and you'll call it unethical ...

Phil: to be honest, I actually accept your reasoning in your opinion - as a matter of fact, most of it well taken. Calling me names is garbage and you know it so cut the crap - if you played me, you'd never know whether I'm considering gaming a little or not. I've said it 50x, there's a time and a place for gamesmanship. I exercise discretion and my opponents take no exception to my play - I doubt even you would. Truth is, you may have been subject to it and never knew it.

Most people wouldn't even notice an extra 8 second delay to pick up a 3rd ball that I know the server doesn't need - I might be gathering my strategy at that point and maybe making him sweat a little. Or maybe not at all.

One thing I never do is make excuses - any player on any day might just beat anyone- that's the risk you take in tennis. Your excuse might be that your opponent was a tool - I'm not sure ... no one I play with ever thinks I act like a tool on the tennis court.

 

[Phil]

Well, Cervelo, if your gamesmanship is THAT subtle and no one notices it, then doesn't that defeat it's purpose? But I see what you're saying-the stealth approach-the anti-Hewitt. Kill them not with a shotgun, but with a subtle, slow-acting poison so none even knows that foul play is involved. They won't even KNOW what hit them. Also, your opponents may not be very expereienced players.

I have NEVER been beaten by gamesmanship, mainly because that stuff doesn't phase me. I know when it's being used (and believe me, I would RECOGNIZE your subtle little ploys as gamesmanship-I AM an experienced player) and, I wouldn't take exception to it-not in the sense that I would tell you to stop. I play within the code, and if someone else does the same, I have no business saying anything about his play DURING the match. Afterward, I may take a dig.

Once I underestand that someone is playing games, I silently curse my opponent as a two bit cheap a-hole (at least as a tennis a player-my FRIENDS have done this stuff too, you know) and then just move on...if anything, it inspires me to lift my game a little, as in, "C'mon, Phil, let's DISPATCH this a-hole." And that's it. I have NEVER lost a match because, as you claim, I didn't employ gamesmanship. I HAVE lost many matches because I've beaten myself with errors or poor strategy, or my opponent simply outplayed me That, to me, is essense of the game. Connors and MacEnroe-like gamesmanship is also part of the game, only, not a part that I want to have anything to do with.

If you feel it is SO MUCH a "part of the game" that without it, you lose, then I consider that a handicap, for you. I feel sorry for you, as a tennis player at least, if you think that you cannot win without getting cute. Your opponent might not know what you're doing, but YOU do and I can see that you're ambivalent about the legitimacy of your "tactics", regardless of whether any rules are violated.

Here, we'll just have to agree to disagree-it's my opinion, and maybe my standards in this department, for myself, and my expectations for others, go beyond what you find acceptable.

 

[Meat]

Cervelo, I'm aggreeing with Phil. Completely.

I mean, COME ON. You asked whether it was ethical, it's not that great sportsmanship as you've said yourself, you CAN'T expect everyone to agree with you or post nice things about gamesmanship.

I could end it here, safely, and say "Well...gamesmanship is okay, I guess..." and you'd be happy?

Unfortunately, I don't. When you're professional, and absolutely NEED the money to win, and find no other way out, go for it. While it's not completely ethical, it's not completely uncommon, it could be vital to your career.

But you're at the CLUB level. You're NOT a pro. You're NOT playing for national rankings. What's the point of gamesmanship when you're just playing for FUN? Even if it IS a tournament, big deal. I'm sure you're not one of the top nationally ranked people.

It doesn't matter if you don't make excuses, you're purposely trying to give yourself an advantage or hopefully change the odds outside of play. Hey, I'm all for beating people up and making them lose confidence in their game. But do it when you're hitting the ball, not between points.

On another note, smiling between points just makes you look stupid. Especially if you've lost the point. You have no idea how many idiots I've seen do this. They smile at the receiver. Guess what, you're not creating any pressure. It's not the "I'm taking your serves, and I'm smiling. Because I'M going to CRUSH it with NO PROBLEMS." No. You're just an idiot in that circumstance.

Same thing for the "Ok, Christmas is over..." I am firmly against gamesmanship. But this just makes you sound stupider.

And cheering, but not in an obnoxious manner where it might be discourteous? But obvious, of course? I hate to break it to you, but it's usually still discourteous. Your opponents probably just think "I'm playing a dumb*ss."

Is it gamesmanship, or cheating?

Sorry to burst your bubble again, gamesmanship isn't entirely different from cheating. But I'm surprised your opponents don't actually get a morale boost from playing you. So I guess it evens out, somewhat.

Fricking A, you're PLAYING FOR FUN. Or is your league going to have a loss on it's record where it doesn't count much? Get over it. Using the tennis "minor leagues" as another example is completely irrelevant -they're literally fighting to survive, and hopefully make it into the top 100. At this point, they have nothing else but tennis. If they can't make it, they're screwed for life.

Why don't you just try playing normal tennis your next match?

 

[cervelo]

Meat: The reference to minor leagues served to reference legality, not morality. I know you find it distasteful- I've repeatedly explained that discretion is the better part ... based on feedback from my opponents, I know when it's unwarranted.

What if there's gamesmanship like I describe and both players are having total fun? Again, discretion is knowing your opponent and when to say when. My hitting partner beat me last Tuesday through some great tennis, pressure points and some gamesmanship on both parts. I smiled between points because I was having fun and digging the pressure, and also because he saved a couple break points with some crazy shotmaking - his play was tight and worth smiling about. In the end, we laughed about it after our match and analyzed it, and both of us had big smiles on our faces.

Bottom line: you see it as my handicap, and I see it as a part of the game that deserves, at the very least, acknowledgment and understanding because it exists, it's legal and it works- whether a player should choose to actually employ it or not is forever subject to debate.

 

[Meat]

All of it is unwarranted. I don't care if it's subtle or disguised, it is STILL gamesmanship. It should NOT be called "okay" simply because you've tried to disguise it. It does not produce a clean, fun player.

Total fun? Because both players are delaying the changeovers, making offhand remarks, and doing "not obnoxious, but obvious" celebrations after every point? That's not total fun.

Yes, the "crazy" shotmaking and pressure is fine. And the "big smile" on your faces is fine. DID THE GAMESMANSHIP PRODUCE THAT? Of course not.

Does it make it all better? I've already said it. Of course not.

Between friends, it can be simply passed off as fun. Gamesmanship in matches, leagues, or anywhere out of the pro levels (and I still believe for the most part, even then) is completely unnecessary.

The "fun" you've stated you've had has come from good tennis and "crazy shotmaking". Wow, I guess you'd have more actual tennis if you weren't subtly trying to knock your opponent, off, huh?

Doing it subtly never makes it better. Maybe you'll find more fun and good tennis if you're actually PLAYING for fun and good tennis, not subtly attempting to use gamesmanship. That IS part of cheating, in case you don't have the definition.

 

[cervelo]

Between friends, it can be simply passed off as fun.

The above has been my WHOLE point all along. If you watched us play, that's the only quote you'd absolutely be offering. Something like, "those two are runnin each other ragged and laughing about it."

(and kill the name calling - I respect your opinion - I wont call you an idiot - don't call me an idiot either)

 

[Meat]

Whenever friends play, it is never serious tennis. You are usually just joking around.

Then take a match against another person, where you're still playing around. They don't know you. They're not going to take your gamesmanship, and take it as a "joke".

That's fine you had fun. It's too bad not everyone is your friend and willing to joke around. Nobody's going to laugh at your gamesmanship.

Unless, of course, they're laughing AT you, not WITH you.

 

[cervelo]

Once again, I wouldn't game a stranger in a tourney, (well, unless they pulled something obvious first.)

 

[cervelo]

Whenever friends play, it is never serious tennis. You are usually just joking around.

So it's okay then right ... if both players know the deal and are buddies ???

 

[Kaptain Karl]

As a Junior I was really "on" with my serve against my older brother. I was *finally* gonna take a set from him....

On one changeover, he commented on how well I was serving. Then he asked, "Do inhale before, during or just after your toss...?"

I lost my next two service games ... and then the set. "GRRRrrr!"

Man! That was a good / cruel / effective ploy.

The good news is, he pretty much cured me of being susceptible to gamesmanship. (So, will I now thank him? Heck no!!!)

- KK

 

[Kaptain Karl]

Meat - I seem to remember you and I "crossing swords" before. I don't even play my buddies "just for fun." I play to win.

"Just joking around" tennis is really a waste of time to me.

- KK

 

[Kana Himezaki]

After looking at this, I'd agree that gamesmanship is wrong. It might happen, but only in a "fun" match where the other player knows what you're doing and nothing's going to happen.

KK - It seemed like Meat was just saying here that the only place this would happen is when people were joking around. He wasn't exactly encouraging non-competitive tennis.

I'd agree with you. I play to win. Doesn't matter who it is. If they're a friend, that just means I know what they play like.

 

[Phil]

So it's okay then right ... if both players know the deal and are buddies ???

No. Here's the bottom line, the final equation:

Gamesmanship = Bullshia-t.

 

[cervelo]

Phil:

Admit it, you're an old school gamer from way back and you don't want anyone stealing your thunder ...

Here's the proof of your gaming just from your responses on this thread:

1) reference to Wall Street 2x on a tennis forum.
2) name calling on your very first post (and complimenting yourself for it by claiming to "hit a nerve").
3) repeatedly using well versed efforts in beating TW's anti-profanity monitor.
4) subtlely trashing MacEnroe and Connors so that no one noticed.
5) correcting me about the 99 Cinci- tourney only seconds after I posted it.


(*also, there's his dubious claim to be a freelance writer of pornographic greeting cards.)

Hmmmm ... seems like head games from an experienced gamer ...

For all you Star Wars fans out there, here's my equation:

Phil = Sith Lord.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

After looking at this, I'd agree that gamesmanship is wrong. It might happen, but only in a "fun" match where the other player knows what you're doing and nothing's going to happen.

Phooey! There is nothing at all wrong with gamesmanship. Phil's just being ... Phil.

It seemed like Meat was just saying here that the only place this would happen is when people were joking around. He wasn't exactly encouraging non-competitive tennis.

I didn't post that he *was* "encouraging non-competitive tennis." (I don't even know how you got *that* as the crux of my post..!)

Here is the quote from Meat's post (emphasis mine) with which I take issue:

Whenever friends play, it is never serious tennis. You are usually just joking around.

I think this is nonsense. What makes tennis fun for me *is* the competition. It's why when I do drills, they are game-based drills -- which means I'm trying to WIN them. When I play practice matches with my buddies (I may be working on some kind of strategy ... or employing a particular tactic, but) I am still playing to WIN. This is HOW I become more and more "competition tough."

And it's actually FUN for me this way. After 41 years of competition, I still need to "practice the pressure" of competition. Most of my buddies tell me they need the same kind of practice to keep their "edge". Maybe Meat is different....

- KK