D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
I like avery's vids too, but a lot of them are stuff I already know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Beating the chop shot/ slicer
- Thread starter Dartagnan64
- Start date
I like avery's vids too, but a lot of them are stuff I already know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
you really sum everything up quite nicely as it relates to my game. I actually have good footwork though it is not needed. I played this morning dubs and mentioned to the guys that I found this thread and was replying in it and the question they all had because they will all lose against me in both singles and dubs is how to beat a player like me. after reading all these posts, i could be wrong but someone earlier said you need to be able to get down low and drive the shots. the only issue that i have and again keep in mind i play with and against a lot of our towns better players including local tennis pros is that some of the pro's can do that but i don't know many others that can. One of the guys i play with and against in dubs is 6"6 and a very wide body (not skinny lanky). he is effective and also the strongest of the 40-50 guys in our group but I think what gives him that shot that others can't do is his reach (long arms). he can not just against me but anyone we play against drive the ball with little clearance over the net. he has more of a flat shot whereas others who i have played in the 6"3ish range use more of their arms in trying to hit that big shot.
I just started usta and play in 3.5. the only reason i play 3.5 is the guy who runs our team wanted flexibility to move me around from 3.5 to 4.0 which he wouldn't have if i self rated 4.0. For the past 3 years (since i started playing tennis after 35 years off) i have been playing in a league that has roughly 1000 active players and they range from 2.5-5.0. I started my first year at 4.0, I played summer my second year 4.0 and didn't lose a set and only 2 sets did anyone win more than 2 games off me. I was bumped up to 4.75 skipping 4.50. my record was 4-3 at 4.75 and requested to play in 4.5 this past summer and fall where i went 7-0 and 6-1 being in the top 5 players out of roughly 100 in our 4.5 group. I play casually/competitively tues-thurs and of the guys who i know that are usta rated they all are 4.0. I will consistently beat these 4.0 players who again in my opinion are much better players than me. One of these guys won't play me in singles anymore but will in doubles mainly because he has issues with his knees and doesn't want to run the way i make people run. After our last match he quipped he came into the net (off me drop shot) 45 times and didn't hit a single volley (he was lobbed). All I am saying is i beat everyone i know who is 4.0 usta. I did not just pick up a racquet, been playing A LOT over the past 3 years
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
You missed the point. My point was that if a teen who is stronger, fitter, and more mobile can't learn the "proper strokes" to beat an over-the-hill junk baller with two years of coaching costing thousands of dollars, what hope does the over-the-hill junk baller have to learn the "proper strokes" to the point of using them well in the limited court time his old joints allow him?
My son spends 3-4 times my time and effort on the court each week. So to equal his total accrued training time, it would take me 6 years or so. I see enough old guys who SUCK trying to look like tennis players to try and become one of them. I may decline to a 3.0 who loses most of the time, but at least I'll know I gave it my best and was trying to be good rather than SUCKING while trying to LOOK good.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
If I sucked so much, I would be in less demand for doubles. But since my priorities are fun and fitness, I pursue a course that keeps the ball in play and does not end points early due to UEs on my part. Slice BH, lobs, drop shots, dink shots and the like accomplish that well enough.
A "proper stroke" that puts the ball into the net or long does not look good to me. Strokes that allow me to survive a point long enough to get into position for a winner: that's what looks good to me. Yes, I've watched some video of myself, and it is not graceful or elegant. If it looks stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid ...
Thank you for confirming my initial comment that pushers care more about winning than playing tennis.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
But at the end of the day, it's not about winning for me. It's about staying in points long enough to enjoy the game and get decent exercise. One has to be pretty thick to keep ignoring explicit statements in favor of one's own pseudo-psychological bias-based inferences.
Topspin around here and on most courts is a religion. Instead of looking at the pros and cons of different shot types, most players try to hit topspin.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I've not played anyone that started out tennis as a master chopshotter either so we are in the same boat i guess. Most slicers start out a bit pushy until they master the stroke over a few years. A perfectly struck non-bouncing slice shot from the baseline takes more skill than a straightforward topspin groundstroke. Beginners who can do that are few and far between. Even some of our 60+ year old masters of spin can't reliably do it time and again.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Largely because its easier to master than the slice and a safer way to play. You can hit out and reliably keep the ball in the court. Bad slices are easy to do, good slices are very challenging with low error margin. It's harder to hit even slow topspin but once you get it down, the progression comes much more rapidly in my experience.
But slice/chop shot/junk balling will remain a valid winning form of tennis at rec levels for a number of reasons: 1) everyone hates to play against it so they only see it in league matches and tourneys, 2) most rec players still don't have all the tools to force the master chop shotter out of his comfort zone. I don't see any chop shotters past 4.5. 5.0 players have the tools to deal with it.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It's pointless to use logic: we all know @Startzel's view on pushing ["not real tennis"] so all of his conclusions flow from that initial assumption. If you disagree with his assumption [I certainly do], you will necessarily disagree with his conclusions.
Like the Sherlock Holmes idea of the dog that didn't bark, the time Startzel's opinion would be noteworthy is if he did NOT criticize a pusher. Then I'd sit up and pay attention.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
like most folks that hate pushers... @Startzel looks at folks that push as a character flaw... ie. why wouldn't you want to get better than that?
to a degree, i agree with him... why wouldn't you learn to play better (answer: because they don't want to put the time, effort, resources into improving - or don't want damage their frail egos built on the blood of vanquished 4.0's-with-"proper strokes")
kinda like how fit people look at fat people, as they stuff yet another cookie in their mouth (ie. they don't want to sacrafice short term pain (no cookie for you!) for long term gain (be in shape!))
but similar to how i hate religious/political fanatics imposing their ideas on me (or fit folks, who fat shame), i think's it's silly for folks to impose their idea of what "proper tennis" is.
Sometimes i feel bad for the 3.5-4.0's that complain about pushers... they complain because they're getting beat, and deep down inside, there's a spec of doubt, "maybe i'm the one wasting my time/effort/resources learning to play tennis the right way". To you I say, drive on, you're almost at tennis utopia
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
But he reserves a special kind of scorn for pushers. I haven't seen him criticize other styles [ie tries to hit a winner every time, tries to serve opponent off the court and DFs half of the time, not fit, mentally weak, etc.]. If it really was about answering the question "why wouldn't you learn to play better?", it should apply to any style, not just pushing.
Perhaps the key is that pushing a lot of times leads to winning whereas the other styles I mentioned usually lead to losing.
Now, to be fair, people in general are resistant to change, not just pushers. And if they have found something that works, it makes it all the more difficult to change. So I can't blame someone for adopting a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. I would point out to them if they asked my advice that I thought pushing imposed a lower ceiling to their long-term improvement but maybe they don't care about that.
And the most ardent critics are sometimes those who formerly had the problem [ie a recovered alcoholic admonishing a current alcoholic].
but similar to how i hate religious/political fanatics imposing their ideas on me (or fit folks, who fat shame), i think's it's silly for folks to impose their idea of what "proper tennis" is.
[/QUOTE
I'm with you. There are many ways to get to one's destination and for some, the journey is more important anyway. I'm grateful for the chance to step out on the tennis court so quibbling over the style of my opponent is not high on my priority list.
Sometimes i feel bad for the 3.5-4.0's that complain about pushers... they complain because they're getting beat, and deep down inside, there's a spec of doubt, "maybe i'm the one wasting my time/effort/resources learning to play tennis the right way". To you I say, drive on, you're almost at tennis utopia
I think it's a defense mechanism: rather than confront their weaknesses and try to improve [which would make them a better player but would also take a lot of effort], they blame the opponent.
like most folks that hate pushers... @Startzel looks at folks that push as a character flaw... ie. why wouldn't you want to get better than that?
to a degree, i agree with him... why wouldn't you learn to play better (answer: because they don't want to put the time, effort, resources into improving - or don't want damage their frail egos built on the blood of vanquished 4.0's-with-"proper strokes")
kinda like how fit people look at fat people, as they stuff yet another cookie in their mouth (ie. they don't want to sacrafice short term pain (no cookie for you!) for long term gain (be in shape!))
but similar to how i hate religious/political fanatics imposing their ideas on me (or fit folks, who fat shame), i think's it's silly for folks to impose their idea of what "proper tennis" is.
Sometimes i feel bad for the 3.5-4.0's that complain about pushers... they complain because they're getting beat, and deep down inside, there's a spec of doubt, "maybe i'm the one wasting my time/effort/resources learning to play tennis the right way". To you I say, drive on, you're almost at tennis utopia
Please don't misunderstand my position. I'm not trying to force anyone to change their game.
I just want them to be honest with themselves. Too many posters delude themselves into believing pushing is the best style of tennis.
I'm never going to fault someone for being willing to fail to better themselves.
Yeah hitting 60 unforced errors might lose them the math every time but at least they're trying to hit a proper stroke.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
yeah, but fat people don't want to be reminded that they are fat... they know they are fat.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
"So you would rather look bad while sucking?
Interesting logic."
"Thank you for confirming my initial comment that pushers care more about winning than playing tennis."
"Pushing only exists because the focus is on winning and not playing for fun."
You consider these comments to be examples of "I just want them to be honest with themselves."? Yikes. Looks more like you want to bash not only a style of play but the people who advocate [dare I say "push"?] that style. Your "don't shoot the messenger" stance seems disingenuous when you make snide comments like these.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Then they shouldn't go around telling the forum they aren't fat
Where did a pusher in this thread proclaim he is not pushing? As far as I can tell, the posters admitted they were pushing. And then you attacked them for pushing.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
That's not going to make them a very desirable teammate. If winning means nothing, it's a viable approach. But most people care at least a little [some care a lot] about winning so they'd switch to Plan B.
I heard a commentator talk about James Blake, who hit a pretty flat, hard ball. Blake said something like "if I miss 10 BHs in a row, I will hit the 11th just as hard because I have confidence in my shot." This seems to be the approach you are taking. It worked great for Blake but most people don't have that level of skill, practice, athleticism, etc. If I missed 10 BHs in a row, I'd alter my shot. Then later on the practice court I'd try to figure out why I missed the 10, not during the match.
Where in any of those posts did I tell them to change their style of play?
No I criticized them for not being honest about why they push.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
By shaming them, presumably. It certainly didn't sound like you were trying to enlighten them ["I just want them to be honest with themselves."].
You're arguing against the very idea of practice. The point of practice is to continue doing something even if the results aren't there yet.
None of us get paid for a win or loss. So why would you be afraid to lose a match?
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm fine with your comment about the point of practice. However, if something's not working during practice, I'll continue to make adjustments until I find a solution. During a match, I don't have that luxury. I want to stop the bleeding and get the ball in.
I admit that this is a self-imposed lack of luxury: I DO care about winning although I care more about enjoyment and camaraderie and the competitive process. So I do treat matches and practice differently. If you treat them the same then you are an outlier on this forum.
Yes, none of us are pros [getting paid to win tournaments]. But there are benefits besides money when one wins: self-confidence, pride, justification, ego-stroking, bragging rights, a rise in the social pecking order [not to mention NTRP], etc. Therefore, [fear of] losing plays a more prominent role than your question suggests. If the lack of money meant no one was afraid of losing, then why would sandbagging exist? Because these are people we're talking about, not algorithms.
Bottom line: if a shot isn't working for me during a match, I will change first and analyze later. If it happens in practice, I will analyze first.
OrangePower
Legend
like most folks that hate pushers... @Startzel looks at folks that push as a character flaw... ie. why wouldn't you want to get better than that?
to a degree, i agree with him... why wouldn't you learn to play better (answer: because they don't want to put the time, effort, resources into improving - or don't want damage their frail egos built on the blood of vanquished 4.0's-with-"proper strokes")
kinda like how fit people look at fat people, as they stuff yet another cookie in their mouth (ie. they don't want to sacrafice short term pain (no cookie for you!) for long term gain (be in shape!))
but similar to how i hate religious/political fanatics imposing their ideas on me (or fit folks, who fat shame), i think's it's silly for folks to impose their idea of what "proper tennis" is.
Sometimes i feel bad for the 3.5-4.0's that complain about pushers... they complain because they're getting beat, and deep down inside, there's a spec of doubt, "maybe i'm the one wasting my time/effort/resources learning to play tennis the right way". To you I say, drive on, you're almost at tennis utopia
Agree with everything you're saying..... ideally, every one would want to improve, whether it's in tennis by learning better technique, or in terms of their personal health by getting slimmer/fitter. But of course it's easier said than done, and for some people it's much harder than for others, whether it be for physical or psychological reasons.
When I was much younger I used to smoke, until one day I decided to quit.... and that was the last day I ever smoked. I was very lucky that I could just quit - I know that I'm the exception in terms of being able to do that so easily. So while I would strongly advise anyone who smokes to quit, I would not chastise them for being unable or unwilling to do so.
You're so close to getting the point but still so far away. I'm not arguing that people aren't afraid to lose.
But it seems like you understand the same reason people push is the same reason people sandbag.
The sport would be so much better if the emphasis was on playing the sport, not winning.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
Just because pushing and junk balling are my preferred style of play doesn't mean I think other people should all play the same way. My goal is to communicate the trade-offs and let each player decide for themselves.
The unforced errors I'd rack up trying to hit "proper strokes" would end points too quickly to reach my fun and fitness goals, and would also shorten points to the point of frustration for opponents hoping to play for a while and sharpen their own game rather than just put a double bagel in the books. Most of my opponents are not just about winning, but about fun, fitness, and practice.
My doubles partners have never complained about my lack of "proper strokes." They are mature enough to realize that a 50ish year old man is unlikely to productively master "proper strokes" over the course of a league or tourney, so they limit their advice for the current campaign to things that can be effectively implemented within the available time frame. It has been reasonable on occasion for them to suggest I focus on one area of stroke improvement in a suitable gap of time between leagues or tourneys. But rather than speak to my pushing, lobbing, or junk balling from the baseline, the more obvious areas for improvement are my net play (volleying and overheads). But the emphasis has never been on the huge strides needed for "proper strokes" but on small variations on existing skills that will win more points.
Our local doubles community (at least the folks I play with) are non-judgmental, non-elistist, and very mature and supportive. No one is trying to reinvent anyone else's tennis game, just offering gentle encouragement to keep playing and perhaps (when asked) how to make small changes that can be effective in a short time. Be nice, show up on time, make an effort, and don't botch too many line calls are the keys to acceptance regardless of one's style of play.
Losing 25 lbs over the past 3 months has probably done more for my tennis game in the next year than any attempts I could make toward "proper strokes." If I can drop 15 more by new year, I will be much, much better in 2017 than 2015-2016.
The unforced errors I'd rack up trying to hit "proper strokes" would end points too quickly to reach my fun and fitness goals, and would also shorten points to the point of frustration for opponents hoping to play for a while and sharpen their own game rather than just put a double bagel in the books. Most of my opponents are not just about winning, but about fun, fitness, and practice.
My doubles partners have never complained about my lack of "proper strokes." They are mature enough to realize that a 50ish year old man is unlikely to productively master "proper strokes" over the course of a league or tourney, so they limit their advice for the current campaign to things that can be effectively implemented within the available time frame. It has been reasonable on occasion for them to suggest I focus on one area of stroke improvement in a suitable gap of time between leagues or tourneys. But rather than speak to my pushing, lobbing, or junk balling from the baseline, the more obvious areas for improvement are my net play (volleying and overheads). But the emphasis has never been on the huge strides needed for "proper strokes" but on small variations on existing skills that will win more points.
Our local doubles community (at least the folks I play with) are non-judgmental, non-elistist, and very mature and supportive. No one is trying to reinvent anyone else's tennis game, just offering gentle encouragement to keep playing and perhaps (when asked) how to make small changes that can be effective in a short time. Be nice, show up on time, make an effort, and don't botch too many line calls are the keys to acceptance regardless of one's style of play.
Losing 25 lbs over the past 3 months has probably done more for my tennis game in the next year than any attempts I could make toward "proper strokes." If I can drop 15 more by new year, I will be much, much better in 2017 than 2015-2016.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
True that. And since we don't live in an ideal world, there will always be the need for tennis coaches and aids to quit smoking.
Fortunately enough people were willing to criticize smokers. If they hadn't you would still have tobacco companies advertising to children and doctors claiming smoking is healthy.
I understand your desire to be a nice guy and understanding but you're ignoring an important part of reality.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I agree about emphasis on playing vs winning. I also believe the world would be better with X instead of Y but I don't control the world except for my own actions and reactions [and sometimes I wonder whether I fully control those].
But I disagree about motivation for pushing vs sandbagging. To me, it's clear why people sandbag: "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." But while *some* pushers may have this attitude, I believe the vast majority do not [just like I believe the vast majority of players aren't sandbaggers]. There are many reasons why someone might push, independent of the desire to win. Many have already been listed. You choose to disregard those reasons as not being valid. Difference of opinion.
I think you're arguing people should not be afraid to lose. In a sterile, perfect world, I agree. But that's not the world we inhabit. So trying to view the world through the prism of that assumption is misleading.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I think Orange is recognizing the reality that quitting smoking is difficult, hence his reticence to criticize others [ie "Don't criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes."]. I don't know if it has anything to do with being nice.
IMO, your expectation for how the world *should* behave is not realistic: quitting smoking is difficult and learning how to hit TS drive GSs is also difficult. Telling pushers to just learn how to hit proper strokes is like telling a smoker to just quit smoking. Neither is going to result in much success. There are the outliers like Orange who can just decide to quit smoking as there are outliers in tennis who can pick up new things quickly.
Do you not realize you're providing a false dichotomy?
Why do you keep presenting it as if you hit with tradition tennis strokes you won't be able to keep the ball in play?
You're a 3.5 not a 5.5 level pusher. It won't be that difficult to learn to play at 3.5 with real strokes. In fact you would probably get more exercise as it will be easier to keep the ball in play.
Why are you refusing to acknowledge there is a difference between not being able to learn to hit a TS shot and telling yourself you're better off not learning a TS shot?
The same way there is a difference between being unable to quit smoking and telling yourself you're better off smoking than quitting. You should be ashamed of yourself if you would encourage someone to smoke.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
it's not a false dichotomy: he's explaining what would happen if he took your advice. You could argue that he just has to work through the short-term increase in UEs but not everyone is willing to invest that.
And what you're suggesting involves change and change is difficult. You may see it as a trivial effort because you've already mastered that aspect; for someone who hasn't, that molehill may look more like a mountain. For many, that's reason enough to discard the possibility.
In my case, when I played 4.0 doubles, I could get away with blocking the serve back and crashing the net. But I realized that this would likely fail at 4.5 so, long before I got bumped, I forced myself to start driving the return more, even though it was uncomfortable, out of my "safe zone", and produced more UEs at first. It paid off and I'm now much more comfortable driving the return at 4.5.
This is "ideal", IMO [short-term sacrifice ---> long-term gain]. However, I recognize that not everyone is built the same psychologically as I so I "get it" if someone does not follow the same path.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I acknowledge there is a difference. I think there are only a few who could not learn it *if they were willing to put in the time/effort/money/work*. But, for whatever reason, there are many who aren't willing. Some of these people think they're better off. Some people recognize they are not better off but that's not reason enough to change their behavior. Just like seeing people die of lung cancer isn't enough to make people quit smoking.
I don't know anyone who tells themselves they are better off smoking. Do you? OTOH, I know people who smoke who would like to quit but they haven't managed it. The reasons are probably a lot more complicated than your solution ["just quit smoking"; "just hit 'proper' strokes"] could address.
No I don't know anyone who tells themselves they're healthier to smoke than not smoke?
Do you know why? Because there were enough people like myself who called BS when people made that argument. We didn't let them carry on a fallacy.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
Do you realize how stupid it looks when someone disputes facts from hundreds of miles away with zero firsthand experience with the players in question?
I've tried using traditional strokes. It does not work for me. I do not think I can master these techniques with the time and money I am willing to spend trying. We've spent thousands of dollars and my son has spent two years learning the "proper strokes" and he still has not taken a single set from me in spite of being younger, fitter, more athletic, and quicker to pick up new skills.
What makes you so sure I could learn the "proper strokes" more quickly than my son has? Two years spending 4-6 hours per week and lots of cash is more time and effort than I want to take. I don't think my playing partners would relish the thought of all the UEs over the 2+ years it would likely take to come back up to my current level of play.
Why not be happy with your game and let us pushers and junk ballers be happy with ours?
In the interest of fun, fitness, and consideration of partners who prefer we avoid UEs, I am taking the approach of incremental changes that bring slow, steady improvement. There is no need to tank my whole game for some number of years while I come back up to speed with "proper strokes" just because some keyboard commando suggests it is the one true path to tennis enlightenment.
OrangePower
Legend
I doubt there are any smokers out there today who are under the misconception that smoking is ok for their health. So why are they still smokers? Well, some might prefer to quit but just are not able to, and some might see the negative health consequences as an acceptable trade-off for the enjoyment they get from smoking.
Not a perfect analogy to pushing, but I'd bet that most pushers recognize that it limits their game and ability to improve... but some might not be realistically able to learn 'proper' technique, and some are willing to accept an upper ceiling on their game as a trade off for playing a style that they are comfortable with.
I think it's perfectly fine to point out to pushers the limitations of that style, but then the choice they ultimately make is theirs.
And by the way, the same goes for players who are maybe overly aggressive - like me. I'd probably be better off being more patient during points, and teammates and opponents have said as much to me, but hey, I enjoy going on the attack even when it's maybe not appropriate. Would you criticize me for that as much as you criticize pushers?
Not really sure where we disagree then? I'm not telling them to change. I'm just telling them not to tell me they're better off pushing.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
when someone says "I'm better off pushing"... it really means, "given the time, effort, and resources i'm willing to put into this hobby, i'm better off not learning 'how to do it like the pros', and stick with my bunt strokes"
bottom line, is that they are lazy about learning to play tennis like the pros (eg. topspin)... which is ok, because there are alot of other priorities higher than tennis (well maybe not on this forum
) #firstworldproblems
BlueB
Legend
OK, let's analyse this a bit...
First, difference between a "sport" and "recreation":
The later one is a physical activity that you do for fitness, entertainment and pastime, and sometimes socialising.
A sport can be all of the above, PLUS a structured and competitive component.
Thus, for recreation one can rally or do drills with friends, or hit against a wall. It's a good opportunity to work on good technique too. The moment you start playing points, you added the structure to the game, as well as the competitive part. It turns into a sport.
Now, the objective of the sport of tennis...
Besides the obvious - win the points to win the games, sets, is to place the ball into opponents court. Logically, anything you do to put the ball there and to prevent opponent of playing it back to you, improves the event.
So no, pushers and junk ballers do not ruin the sport. They do their best to play one extra ball AND to win the point.
Me personally, I like the pushers. It's like playing a wall or a ball machine. Perfect to work on various aspects of my game.
Junk ballers can be irritating, because they throw the rhythm out and challenge opponent's prep and execution. However, I never get mad at them, but at myself, for not playing better or rushing too much...
As personal style, I prefer the big game, but I'm not ashamed to mix in some junk, or fall back onto controlled deep shots.
In fact, I get mad at myself when I loose by carrying on playing big against a player who does it better or one who just gets everything back until I implode...
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
OrangePower
Legend
Exactly, when someone says "I'm better off pushing", they don't literally mean that given the choice between pushing or magically waking up tomorrow with effective 'proper' technique they would still prefer the pushing.when someone says "I'm better off pushing"... it really means, "given the time, effort, and resources i'm willing to put into this hobby, i'm better off not learning 'how to do it like the pros', and stick with my bunt strokes"
bottom line, is that they are lazy about learning to play tennis like the pros (eg. topspin)... which is ok, because there are alot of other priorities higher than tennis (well maybe not on this forum
What they mean is that (1) they don't feel they are capable of learning effective 'proper' technique within a reasonable amount of time and effort (because of lack of ability, lack of time, lack of desire to put in the work, or unwillingness/inability to spend the money for coaching), or (2) they don't want to go through the change process which typically requires getting worse before you *potentially* get better (and worse is not just a matter of winning/losing, it's a matter of enjoyment of the game).
So really they mean "I'm better off pushing than trying to learn something else which will take a lot of time/effort/money and will probably cause my game to deteriorate in the short term in exchange for the chance, but no definite guarantee, of having my game be better in the long term."
Which is quite the mouthful to say
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
It took me 2 months to hit an acceptable topspin shot and 1 year to make it reasonably reliable. With watching a few videos and taking a couple lessons and just hitting 3 days a week with my wife.
Topspin shots are not that hard to learn given today's racket and string technology is designed specifically for that purpose. It's a large amount of laziness and unwillingness to take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward. I've had the same issues with improving my golf swing. Had to deconstruct to construct it to a better more reliable swing. It's not even close to the hardest thing I've done.
But then again there are people that can't get up before 11 am to play a match of tennis.
Topspin shots are not that hard to learn given today's racket and string technology is designed specifically for that purpose. It's a large amount of laziness and unwillingness to take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward. I've had the same issues with improving my golf swing. Had to deconstruct to construct it to a better more reliable swing. It's not even close to the hardest thing I've done.
But then again there are people that can't get up before 11 am to play a match of tennis.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I seriously doubt they listened to you: nothing against you personally; I mean, if the Surgeon General recommends not smoking and people keep smoking, why would they listen to you?. In Europe, they don't mess around with wishy washy warnings like "smoking MAY be harmful to your health": they come out say "if you smoke you will die" and they put pictures of lung and throat cancer patients on the cig packs. Does that cut down the # of smokers? I have my doubts.
So I don't believe your calling BS, as valid as I think it was, made any difference. I believe people's decision-making process is way more complicated and illogical than that.
Getting back to tennis, I believe people choosing to not change to "proper" form is likewise way more complicated and illogical. How many people have you managed to convince to stop pushing when you call BS on their fallacy?
lol this is just embarrassing.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I get the impression Startzel doesn't recognize the validity of other people's choices. He's always posting how amazed he is when someone's choice is different from his.
No, he wouldn't. He posted in response to me that even if you missed 60 shots and lost the match, it's OK as long as you were trying to hit the proper stroke. He reserves this special criticism for pushers. One difference is that pushing has a tendency to win whereas the other traits [overhitting, not fit, mentally weak, etc.] have a tendency to lose. Maybe that's why he singles pushers out.
It did not come easy and i realized how effective it was when i started playing doubles a few years ago. at that time i was a mediocre player who struggled with consistency and when playing against this master chopper/slicer (someone nobody who played against would ever call a pusher) i realized how effective this shot was against people who take big long strokes. i bought a ball machine and practiced the living crap out of this shot using my forehand from all different positions on the court (service line and behind). It sounds like at some point i will hit a limit against how high i can climb before i need to alter my tactics. I am not there yet, I love tennis and i love winning. I would much rather win the way (which i in no way shape or form apologize for playing) that get creamed playing as i did before. I can be wrong but i have always thought of a pusher who just focuses on hitting the ball back slowly not offensively waiting to frustrate the opponent into making a mistake. I use my shots to take ownership of the point, apply pressure by moving in. I guess my point is I have played against people that I view as pushers and their game does not resemble mine. that doesn't mean that you wouldn't view me as a pusher. If i am a pusher i would simply say that not all are created the same
So how did you do in usta league play?
