Coaching - Hawkeye challenge - Monfils vs Almagro

[viktorkwan]

The match between Monfils and Almagro just ended 10 minutes ago.

In the last game, Monfils hit a winner on the line (confirmed by instant replay on tv) which Almagro thought might be out.

Almagro turned around to his coach who was sitting behind the baseline, asked (wasn't gesturing, but actually verbally asked) him whether he thought it was out, and then turned back to the umpire (Norm Chryst) to ask for a challenge.

Norm Chryst declined his request, on the grounds that Almagro had asked his coach for confirmation first, and was instructed by his coach to challenge.

The commentators of Channel 7 said that it was typical of Norm Chryst to make up rules as he goes along.

It's no secret that many players turn to their coaches, sometimes even gesturing to confirm if the ball was in or out. However, it is seldom seen that a player actually spoke to his/her coach to confirm a call.

I think what Almagro did (speaking to his coach) constituted coaching, and that Norm Chryst was actually right.

Any comments?

 

[malakas]

I totally agree,and he should get a warning for coaching.It was time something is done about that!

I'm only sorry that it disrupted Almagro's concetration and imo affected a lot the set outcome.

 

[fed]

I think it was the right call. It's clearly stated that you can verbally ask your coach for their opinion on a challenge.

That being said, I always found it odd that you can't look to your coachfor coachingduring matches. I feel like in other sports the player/coach relationship during games is way more flexible and actually required for success.

 

[fed]

I think it was the right call. It's clearly stated that you can verbally ask your coach for their opinion on a challenge.

That being said, I always found it odd that you can't look to your coach for coaching during matches. I feel like in other sports the player/coach relationship during games is way more flexible and actually required for success.

and by can ask your coach i mean can't, woops!

 

[eeytennis]

The match between Monfils and Almagro just ended 10 minutes ago.

In the last game, Monfils hit a winner on the line (confirmed by instant replay on tv) which Almagro thought might be out.

Almagro turned around to his coach who was sitting behind the baseline, asked (wasn't gesturing, but actually verbally asked) him whether he thought it was out, and then turned back to the umpire (Norm Chryst) to ask for a challenge.

Norm Chryst declined his request, on the grounds that Almagro had asked his coach for confirmation first, and was instructed by his coach to challenge.

The commentators of Channel 7 said that it was typical of Norm Chryst to make up rules as he goes along.

It's no secret that many players turn to their coaches, sometimes even gesturing to confirm if the ball was in or out. However, it is seldom seen that a player actually spoke to his/her coach to confirm a call.

I think what Almagro did (speaking to his coach) constituted coaching, and that Norm Chryst was actually right.

Any comments?

Almagro should have been given a penalty for delaying play...the rules are rules, you can't ask the people in your box if the ball was in or out and THEN challenge it, Norm was right. And that Monfils...I really like him, good personality and a class act.

 

[diggler]

I think it was unfair because the rule had never been previously enforced. You should have warned the players beforehand that this could happen.

Having said that, I like the precedent of enforcing the rules. It should be applied to verbal and non verbal acts.

 

[miniRafa386]

i dont think this should be considered coaching. coaching in my opinion is directing a player to change something or work on something in his/her game, not if he should challenge or not.

 

[skip1969]

if you make it a habit of running through stop signs and you never get caught, it doesn't mean that when officer kozlowski pulls you over for not stopping at the intersection of wilson ave. and sacramento st. and he gives you a ticket, that HE'S the one to blame.

tennis players are a bunch of babies. they get the benefit of the stupid challenge system on show courts. and all they have to remember is to make the challenge fairly quickly.

but no, that ain't good enough. they wanna look at their box, consult the heavens, flip over a few tarot cards, text message a friend back home watching on tv . . . and THEN challenge?

the only reason norm looked liked the heavy is because no one ever enforces the rule. but it's still there. you really can't use the 'well, i've gotten away with it all the other times' defence when you fianlly get busted.

 

[autumn_leaf]

Chair Ump was totally right. you're not suppose to ask anyone if you should challenge. what is often done is to ask the chair ump on his opinion of the call to give you a bit more time on making the decision or on a rare occasion (haven't ever seen it, the ump might over rule the call).

on a challenge you are suppose to stop play immediately and make the challenge. a lot time as mentioned by the commentators people look to their box for their opinion, wait for their next shot to drop, or wait a while and walk up to spot the ball landed and see if it left a mark on the court.

 

[woodrow1029]

I think it was unfair because the rule had never been previously enforced. You should have warned the players beforehand that this could happen.

Having said that, I like the precedent of enforcing the rules. It should be applied to verbal and non verbal acts.

By saying that the rule has never been enforced is wrong. What Almagro did was blaitant. I myself have denied players challenges several times for this same type of instance. It is actually enforced pretty regular when it is this clear. They are warned. It is the players' responsibility to know the rules and procedures as well. These are both players that have experience on hawkeye courts, and we tell them in the prematch meeting (most of us do anyway) that on a point ending shot they must challenge IMMEDIATELY and during a point, they must stop IMMEDIATELY.

 

[NickC]

The Channel 7 people said it was typical of the guy to do things like that? Has he done something like this before; is he no stranger to controversy?

IMO, why not let Nicky challenge? I mean, they do these kinds of things all the time on both the men's and women's tours. It's not like this is the first time someone has turned to their coach and asked about a challenge....

 

[woodrow1029]

The Channel 7 people said it was typical of the guy to do things like that? Has he done something like this before; is he no stranger to controversy?

IMO, why not let Nicky challenge? I mean, they do these kinds of things all the time on both the men's and women's tours. It's not like this is the first time someone has turned to their coach and asked about a challenge....


And I noticed the umpire had an earring in only one of his ears. What a jackoff...

Why make such a personal rude comment like that, really. Norm is one of the most respected chair umpires by the players, other officials and spectators in the world. I don't understand why an earring would matter in this case. I guess I am only offended because Norm is a friend of mine, but I still think that is uncalled for.

 

[aussie]

Basically, common sense should have prevailed, the ump should have reminded Almagro to challenge immediately in future and then allowed the challenge.

Almagro did put his hand up to indicate he wanted to challenge but I doubt that the umpire saw it and only became aware of the challenge request when Almagro repeated the challenge request verbally. Just a little heavy handed by the ump and hopefully he has been reminded to not "over officiate" in the future. Didn't affect the outcome of the match in all probability, but left a slightly sour taste.

 

[saram]

What I heard verbally from Norm was that he took too much time. If he mentioned the coaching--I never heard it--only that he took too much time to decide.

 

[saram]

The Channel 7 people said it was typical of the guy to do things like that? Has he done something like this before; is he no stranger to controversy?

IMO, why not let Nicky challenge? I mean, they do these kinds of things all the time on both the men's and women's tours. It's not like this is the first time someone has turned to their coach and asked about a challenge....


And I noticed the umpire had an earring in only one of his ears. What a jackoff...

I have two in one ear--so I'll take that as a double insult you jackoff...

 

[woodrow1029]

I have two in one ear--so I'll take that as a double insult you jackoff...

All you need to do is look back at some of NickC's previous posts in other threads. It's not uncommon that he makes such a useless, rude and unnecessary statement.

 

[saram]

All you need to do is look back at some of NickC's previous posts in other threads. It's not uncommon that he makes such a useless, rude and unnecessary statement.

I know--I've seen him/her insult a lot of people in the recent past. And, it was hard for me to put that smiley face in there out of kindness....

 

[Feña14]

The thing is, pretty much all the players do it.

They either need to punish them all the time, or not at all. A bit of consistency is what's needed.

 

[saram]

The thing is, pretty much all players do it.

They either need to punish them all the time, or not at all.

I agree--just like the time between points. Every commentator and fan in the world talks about Novak and Rafa and nothing is done. And, like Rafa and Novak say--(to summarize) "No one says to stop or warn me--so I'll keep doing it".

 

[tacou]

if there's an official rule then it's good of the ump, but if I'd also think it a dumb rule.

it's not like coaches have super human eye sight. many players ask the chair umps what they think about a challenge.

doesn't seem like coaching to me.

 

[Feña14]

I agree--just like the time between points. Every commentator and fan in the world talks about Novak and Rafa and nothing is done. And, like Rafa and Novak say--(to summarize) "No one says to stop or warn me--so I'll keep doing it".

Exactly, you like to see consistency on rules for everyone.

I personally don't think it's that bad if you interact with the crowd and your box to decide if a challenge is needed or not, a big reason the challenge system was brought in was to engage the crowd a bit and create some drama.

The challenge system is still fairly new so you can understand why the rule is a bit clouded, but they need to decide one way or the other and all umpires need to stick to it.

You can't go onto court knowing that one umpire will let you get away with the odd word to your box whilst another one won't.

 

[woodrow1029]

Exactly, you like to see consistency on rules for everyone.

I personally don't think it's that bad if you interact with the crowd and your box to decide if a challenge is needed or not, a big reason the challenge system was brought in was to engage the crowd a bit and create some drama.

The challenge system is still fairly new so you can understand why the rule is a bit clouded, but they need to decide one way or the other and all umpires need to stick to it.

You can't go onto court knowing that one umpire will let you get away with the odd word to your box whilst another one won't.

It's the same as on a clay court. It needs to be questioned to the chair umpire immediately. Like I said before, this is NOT the first time this has been enforced. And we are going to be more strict on it from now on. The players know this too.

 

[Feña14]

It's the same as on a clay court. It needs to be questioned to the chair umpire immediately. Like I said before, this is NOT the first time this has been enforced. And we are going to be more strict on it from now on. The players know this too.

Yeah that's all you can ask for really, the players and the umpires need to know what the rule is and it needs to be stuck by. Only enforcing it from time to time does nobody any favours.

 

[TheMusicLover]

Completely agree with all those who already said that the rules should be enforced more often. Chryst did his job here, well done.

 

[Moz]

What was Almagro's reaction to the refusal?

It seems pathetic that anyone would feel the need to ask their coach beforehand. It must be terrible for these tennis players when it comes to 'wipe their bum time' and there's no one else in the cubicle to help.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

i didn't find any rule about this situation in the ATP rulebook...
(or maybe the issue is simply about coaching ?)

but i tend to think the umpire was right !
i mean, the challenge is already a kinda "bonus"... why not call your mum by phone before deciding to use a challenge or not, then ?

anyway, it allowed monfils to rest a little bit !
from his interview :

Q. What did you think of the challenge call at the end of the third set? Did you know what was happening?

GAEL MONFILS: I mean, I don't care about. If you want to talk, it's okay with me. I sit and relax (smiling).


Q. You had a rest?

GAEL MONFILS: Yeah.

What was Almagro's reaction to the refusal?

surprisingly, he didn't break his racquet as he did earlier in the match !

 

[FiveO]

I don't like "the challenge system" as it is set up.

a) it shouldn't be the player's responsibility IMO and shouldn't be another element that a player has to "strategize" about.

b) I'm not even sure how accurate the system is. Seeing similar shots hit cross-court near the sideline compared the video replay vs. the analytical hawkeye replay too often don't seem to jive.

c) too few courts unfair to inject that in matches of lower ranked who toil mostly on the outside on hawkeye-less field courts when they finally face a top tier guy in a stadium.

In short, get it right or don't. Don't leave to the player and don't make it his/her burden.

That being said, IMO it's about time a chair finally interrupted what I see as just one of the abuses associated with the system surrounding hawkeye now.

Good for him (the chair). The problem will now become, how consistent will that type of ruling be, umpire to umpire even with the same umpire, match to match?

I agree totally with the ruling, if the tech is as accurate as the claims I'm for it, its the application of it, the challenge system I dislike.

5

 

[DJG]

No matter which way you look at it, it was the right call by the umpire. It is not the player and his coach and his father and his girfriends and his trainer and whomever else is in his entourage that should be challenging, it is the player alone. You may still turn a blind eye to the non-verbal stuff that happens and is quite difficult to actually prove, but in this case it was very, very blatant.

 

[random guy]

Exactly, you like to see consistency on rules for everyone.

I personally don't think it's that bad if you interact with the crowd and your box to decide if a challenge is needed or not, a big reason the challenge system was brought in was to engage the crowd a bit and create some drama.

The challenge system is still fairly new so you can understand why the rule is a bit clouded, but they need to decide one way or the other and all umpires need to stick to it.

You can't go onto court knowing that one umpire will let you get away with the odd word to your box whilst another one won't.

Agree with the consistency part. Same thing applies to time between points, foot faults and the like. Because if most of the time players get away with those, the ones that got penalized are always gonna say why me, why now? The inconsistency is what drives the players mad. Either you do it as rigid and clear as a let or you just don't do it at all.

 

[viktorkwan]

Why make such a personal rude comment like that, really. Norm is one of the most respected chair umpires by the players, other officials and spectators in the world. I don't understand why an earring would matter in this case. I guess I am only offended because Norm is a friend of mine, but I still think that is uncalled for.

You're an umpire woodrow? that's cool.

I've met Norm once back in 1998 or 1999 in Singapore when he was an umpire at the tournament but had to fill in for the tournament director/referee when he/she hadn't arrived on the first day or 2 of the ATP tournament there. He was real nice and I've always enjoyed his handling of matches since then.

Let's hope the umpires will start enforcing the 20-second rule at tour events and the 25-second rule at the slams between points from now on...

 

[woodrow1029]

You're an umpire woodrow? that's cool.

I've met Norm once back in 1998 or 1999 in Singapore when he was an umpire at the tournament but had to fill in for the tournament director/referee when he/she hadn't arrived on the first day or 2 of the ATP tournament there. He was real nice and I've always enjoyed his handling of matches since then.

Let's hope the umpires will start enforcing the 20-second rule at tour events and the 25-second rule at the slams between points from now on...

You have it backwards. It's 20 seconds at the slams and WTA tour, and ITF circuit. It's 25 seconds for ATP Tour and men's challengers.

Also, remember, as I said before, it's not a rule, its a guideline. If it were a rule, guys would get a time violation every time they changed a racket due to a broken string, most of the time when retying a shoelace, after a ridiculously long point or when the crowd is going nuts.

Yes, Norm is a great guy.

 

[woodrow1029]

Agree with the consistency part. Same thing applies to time between points, foot faults and the like. Because if most of the time players get away with those, the ones that got penalized are always gonna say why me, why now? The inconsistency is what drives the players mad. Either you do it as rigid and clear as a let or you just don't do it at all.

Foot faults are consistently called when they happen.

The time between points is never going to be completely consistent as there is a lot of gray area involved and it's very situational. The only way to make it consistent, is if it becomes a rule of tennis. That is not going to happen.

 

[NickC]

All you need to do is look back at some of NickC's previous posts in other threads. It's not uncommon that he makes such a useless, rude and unnecessary statement.

I take back the last part of my first comment, on the grounds that you retract this statement about me. You making this statement calling me rude is nothing more than pot-calling-the-kettle-black. You making a rude comment about me, calling me rude. I made the comment because what I saw of him, he was slightly rude to a player, who simply wanted to challenge a call. As for the earring thing, every guy I've EVER met with only one earring has been a rude, stuck-up, jackass. Simply taking observations from what I saw in the match, I made a judgment. Weather it was an incorrect or correct judgment, is determined by my peers. Since you have deemed it incorrect, I take it back.

I know--I've seen him/her insult a lot of people in the recent past. And, it was hard for me to put that smiley face in there out of kindness....

How many girls do you know by the name of Nicholas?

You have it backwards. It's 20 seconds at the slams and WTA tour, and ITF circuit. It's 25 seconds for ATP Tour and men's challengers.

Also, remember, as I said before, it's not a rule, its a guideline. If it were a rule, guys would get a time violation every time they changed a racket due to a broken string, most of the time when retying a shoelace, after a ridiculously long point or when the crowd is going nuts.

Yes, Norm is a great guy.

Alright, I take back what I said. It's just that he, from what I saw, acted a bit rude towards Nicolas. The player just wanted to challenge, and held up his hand as soon as he saw the ball land out. The ump, IMO, acted like he was on a "high horse" and was a bit rude to Nicolas, because he didn't see Nicolas put his hand up immediately after the ball landed. He only saw Nicolas talk with his coach, which, is totally understandable, and made the call from there. However, he made the call without knowing the whole story, and acted, in my eyes, like he did, and that Nicolas was flat out wrong. That's where I make my judgment.

 

[woodrow1029]

I take back the last part of my first comment, on the grounds that you retract this statement about me. You making this statement calling me rude is nothing more than pot-calling-the-kettle-black. You making a rude comment about me, calling me rude. I made the comment because what I saw of him, he was slightly rude to a player, who simply wanted to challenge a call. As for the earring thing, every guy I've EVER met with only one earring has been a rude, stuck-up, jackass. Simply taking observations from what I saw in the match, I made a judgment. Weather it was an incorrect or correct judgment, is determined by my peers. Since you have deemed it incorrect, I take it back.



How many girls do you know by the name of Nicholas?



Alright, I take back what I said. It's just that he, from what I saw, acted a bit rude towards Nicolas. The player just wanted to challenge, and held up his hand as soon as he saw the ball land out. The ump, IMO, acted like he was on a "high horse" and was a bit rude to Nicolas, because he didn't see Nicolas put his hand up immediately after the ball landed. He only saw Nicolas talk with his coach, which, is totally understandable, and made the call from there. However, he made the call without knowing the whole story, and acted, in my eyes, like he did, and that Nicolas was flat out wrong. That's where I make my judgment.

Fair enough. Consider it retracted. What I hadn't realized at first was the recent "rude" comments were directed at Fedace. So, fair game. lol.

Also, Norm did exactly what most people on this discussion board have been wanting us to do since the challenge came into existence. Which is, enforcing the coaching rules. Norm explained it very throroughly to him. I have seen umpires be rude to players. I have probably done it myself. I thought Norm explained it very well, got down as close to eye level with Almagro as he could. There was crowd noise, so maybe he had to speak a little louder than normal, but I didn't see him acting "on his high horse" at all.

 

[poochie]

I agreed with woodrow. I watched the match and applaud what he did as a lot of chair umpires should have done. As matter of fact, the very next match between A. Bonderanko and Kuznetsova, chair umpire warned Boneranko not to ask her box if she should challenge or not. Norm did absolutely right thing and he wasnt appearing to be rude. I believe Almagro understood perfectly why. As i remembered, the commentators from ESPN agreed with Norm's decision. I can only wish this will set the example across the board for all the chair umpires to follow.