Depth & Topspin in ATP Matches

[tlm]

Yes i watched that match user92626.See how simple it is to just watch some of these matches+count how many times they hit balls shorter than what most would think.

But i guess it is more fun to keep arguing because some people just dont believe they hit this short.

How many times have i asked these nay sayers to just watch it, but of course they wont because this absolutely proves them dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

Yes i watched that match user92626.See how simple it is to just watch some of these matches+count how many times they hit balls shorter than what most would think.

But i guess it is more fun to keep arguing because some people just dont believe they hit this short.

How many times have i asked these nay sayers to just watch it, but of course they wont because this absolutely proves them dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!

I watched the entire Monte Carlo tournament. Stop being smug.

Yes, some balls land short--- some intentionally, for cross court angles, as I've said at least 4 times. Some just straight, up the middle, a foot or so from the service line--- these are punished routinely, or at the very least give the opponent control of the point. Do I have to bring up that Monte Carlo was played under very heavy conditions, yet again?

I've seen enough tennis to read between the lines, don't act like I can't/don't want to see where the balls land.

 

[LeeD]

You KNOW I always argue with DJ.
In this case, he's totally correct.
Pros hit deep when they get given short easy balls, when they WANT to hit deep, and when they NEED to hit deep.
If opposition insists on staying back, why hit deep?
If opposition hits hard strong shots, you can't hit deep consistently, so you go for safe and short, in a match.
If the opposition is quick and can cover, you NEED to hit a few short to work on your short angles. Just because a few balls go short up the middle doesn't mean it's not used to groove the short angles. We are what we practice, and during a match, pros have to practice a few short shots in order to hit the short angles successfully.
And heavy, dirty balls don't fly right.

 

[charliefedererer]

I'd like to play like that, too, but not sure how. How do you that -- whip hard like Nadal, clear the net good and still safe inside the baseline?? If I exert any power in the manner of Nadal (but obviously not his strength) my shot will need to have low net clearance and will also land deep/long.

Although this thread has followed a different path, since you were good enough to be the OP, perhaps the following videos will give you a start if you really want to go down this path to bigger topspin:

Tennis Forehand - Windshield Wiper Forehand in High Definition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg
SHOULDER ROTATION - http://www.tennisresources.com/inde...ail&basicsearch=1&media_name=&rv=1&vidid=2354
Teaching the modern forehand and backhand - http://www.tennisresources.com/inde...ail&basicsearch=1&media_name=&rv=1&vidid=3213
SloMo: Modern Two Handed Backhand - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7dn2YNNdDE

But you yourself mentioned the pitfalls in changing your technique:

Anyway, back to the topic I'm thinking of adding more topspin and whipping power which brings me this question. How likely can one change his swingpath? I feel I have found my "natural" swing path and any change too drastically is gonna feel forced, unnatural and error-proneous. So, I'm thinking moving my sw grip to more western is best course. Same swingpath, hit bigger, clear net higher, good?

I also found it interesting that you entitled the thread "Depth & Topspin in ATP Matches". Because on the WTA, the shots are definitly flatter. And yet, most of us would be wiped off the court by the women pros. So the increased net clearence with the big topspin strokes comes at the expense of having the timing, strength and devotion to practice to make it a high percentage shot. Therefore, "caveat emptor".

 

[MNPlayer]

Anyway, back to the topic I'm thinking of adding more topspin and whipping power which brings me this question. How likely can one change his swingpath? I feel I have found my "natural" swing path and any change too drastically is gonna feel forced, unnatural and error-proneous. So, I'm thinking moving my sw grip to more western is best course. Same swingpath, hit bigger, clear net higher, good?

Making changes almost always feels a bit unnatural at first. I've changed my swingpath from flat to very topspinny and lately learning to control the spin depending on circumstance. This was not as difficult as learning the basic proper swing, footwork, etc. I try to hit heavy topspin rally balls and flatter approaches most of the time. Depends on the opponent too, since some like spin, some like pace.

Anyway, if you want to become a better tennis player, you need to learn to vary the spin (and therefore the swingpath) and other characteristics of your shots according to circumstance. No way to avoid this.

Incidentally, you can generate plenty of spin with a SW grip. No need to change to full western if it doesn't feel natural. I often see juniors try to use western grips and make a total mess of it. It looks like so much work, and half the time they shank the ball.

 

[LeeD]

I suspect, if you're young, a junior, you're prolly short in height.
Western allows you to hit full out and keep the ball in IN, especially al those high bouncers over your head.
As you grow, which can take a few years, you get used to the western grip even when you get as tall as Soderling or Monfils. Now they can modify back towards SW for more pace and less spin, but they don't face high balls constantly! :shock::shock:

 

[tlm]

Nobody is being smug, just stating facts.You did say that you saw some right up the middle a foot or so from the serve line.That is what i and some others that watched these matches are pointing out.

I think there was a pretty high % of these type of shots.Which each player would hit repeatedly a lot of times+the opponent did not necessarily punish the ball or take control of the point.

You are saying that the conditions were so heavy that it was making it to difficult to hit deep? you are kidding right?

LeeD this was not a few short balls up the middle, this was done on a pretty consistent basis.Did you watch any of these matches?

They could have hit deep plenty more if they wanted to. I think that is the point they are playing higher % tennis by not hitting to deep.

 

[LeeD]

I think the point is they hit short because they are not being punished by hitting short.
YOU try it, at your level. You will get punished.
OTOH, I did say I lost badly to a top 67 year old singles player who dinked and misdirected balls close DTL and sharp angled crosscourt. I wasn't in the mood to run over to cover, and didn't seem to want to move basically. So short shots CAN work, up to 4.0 levels.
Opponent SAID he was 4.0.

 

[SuperDuy]

I suspect, if you're young, a junior, you're prolly short in height.
Western allows you to hit full out and keep the ball in IN, especially al those high bouncers over your head.
As you grow, which can take a few years, you get used to the western grip even when you get as tall as Soderling or Monfils. Now they can modify back towards SW for more pace and less spin, but they don't face high balls constantly! :shock::shock:

Yeah Im having trouble with getting the ball in sometimes so I go more of a semi western, but the ones that bounces to my shoulders are hard to hit, I have to switch to eatern grip for those and hit down flat.

 

[tlm]

That is a very good point leeD they are getting away with hitting short some times so they are not pressured to make sure to keep it deep.

As far as my game i use western grip+windshield wiper forehand.With very fast racket head speed+this technique i can get some pretty nasty topspin.

I can land balls just past the serve line that will easily carry way past the baseline.If i am hitting the ball with enough power+ spin i can still get away with it.I am not saying i am trying to hit quite that short, but i am also not trying to hit to close to the baseline.

There are times when i am playing a very good player that can take that heavy topspin ball off the rise well.I will hit it shorter on purpose so the opponent has to play the ball up high + cant play it off the rise.

To get away with this you have to have a heavy topspin ball that really kicks up high, otherwise you are asking for trouble.So on average i try to hit barely 3/4 court, which leaves me room for error.

By the way i have played legitimate 4.5 players that have trouble attacking this high kicking topspin even when it is not hit that deep.Most of them would quit trying to fight off the annoying spin+attack my weaker backhand side+come to the net.

There is no doubt that when i start landing a heavy spin ball just inside the baseline it can give a lot of players trouble.But you are also risking hitting long.

I have found it more effective to not hit to deep right away+loop heavy spin back+forth+especially to the backhand until i get the error or weak reply.This is when i will step in+drive the ball flatter+deeper to end the point.

 

[user92626]

Hey Charlie and MN,

Good stuffs you posted there. A few days ago I had gone out and tried something of things I said. Keeping my swingpath more or less the same but hit with more power and a closer face definitely was tough -- I didn't feel I could "connect" with the racket to the shot I imagined, the racket face seemed like much smaller. Then, I tried a more open stance and WW, which seemed to be a little better, but I felt I was doing something off biomechanically cuz I felt alot of pressure from pronating my arm. Past experience tells me if i continue, I'll get TE.

Since then, I'm back to ...hitting my usual style -- sw grip, within 3ft net clearance, classic swingpath and 45 degree stance. It feels good and really groove. Yesterday, I got more comments from fellow hitters that my shots had good topspin which occasionally proved effective against net poaching as it dipped down so much. Cheers.