Discussion of Forehand Slice for Strategic Applications

[TimeToPlaySets]

Caw,
It is awesome to slice a few ...
until you get the sitter .
and then you crush the forehand topspin.
Killer 1/2 combination.
Both have a place in a proper variety game.

I also one hundred percent agree that people who never learned slices as kids simply don't have the feel for a slice and never really get it down... It's like either you know it or you don't ...I don't think you can be taught..all those hacker years as a kid with no lessons did have one payoff .... that is the slice

 

[ShaunS]

The BEST There are some good 4.0 and under players are slicers, period. Slicing totally throws topspin champs chumps off their rhythm.

Fixed it

All kidding aside, I absolutely agree with your latest post:

It is awesome to slice a few ...
until you get the sitter .
and then you crush the forehand topspin.
Killer 1/2 combination.
Both have a place in a proper variety game.

You use the slice as a setup for something else. Whether that's giving you a chance to close the net, or forcing them to play an awkward shot, then you go for your weapon. You will find yourself at a disadvantage against good players though if you try to only slice because you can't capitalize on the advantage your getting. It's like @Cindysphinx mentioned, I've got a heavy topspin forehand, but if you feed me slices that I just can't get under I will slice it back until I get the right look.

I don't recall seeing any 4.0 men at the Mid west sectional who used the slice as their predominant shot. I'm curious to know what @BeyondTheTape saw at nationals.

 

[Cawlin]

Fixed it

All kidding aside, I absolutely agree with your latest post:

You use the slice as a setup for something else. Whether that's giving you a chance to close the net, or forcing them to play an awkward shot, then you go for your weapon. You will find yourself at a disadvantage against good players though if you try to only slice because you can't capitalize on the advantage your getting. It's like @Cindysphinx mentioned, I've got a heavy topspin forehand, but if you feed me slices that I just can't get under I will slice it back until I get the right look.

I don't recall seeing any 4.0 men at the Mid west sectional who used the slice as their predominant shot. I'm curious to know what @BeyondTheTape saw at nationals.

I agree with you both too - slice isn't necessarily a "winner" shot, though it can be when it's a drop shot or something like that. Setting that aside... it's definitely a great defensive shot, and a great setup shot. Any/all "free" points you get off of slice are bonuses and their number is greater at lower levels than at higher levels, of course. As you both note, slice can open the court and even by the standards of current "conventional wisdom" a deep slice is often a great shot to approach the net behind - with the intention of finishing the point at the net in the next stroke or so... Forehand slice is probably the least favorable of slice options because it seems to have an inherently smaller margin for error than backhand slice, or maybe it's because a solid TS forehand is just THAT much more powerful for most players than a TS BH... but either way, I can't see a down side to judicious use of slice, and frankly, I think the modern game, even at the highest levels, could use more of it.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

U will get free points against 3.5 maniacs who try to attack your low slice with the same old topspin.

There is downside. A 4.5 can attack your slice. Then again even pros slice back slices.

Bur the best way is to see for yourself. Let us know the field test. Keep track in your head if possible.

 

[BeyondTheTape]

Fixed it

All kidding aside, I absolutely agree with your latest post:

You use the slice as a setup for something else. Whether that's giving you a chance to close the net, or forcing them to play an awkward shot, then you go for your weapon. You will find yourself at a disadvantage against good players though if you try to only slice because you can't capitalize on the advantage your getting. It's like @Cindysphinx mentioned, I've got a heavy topspin forehand, but if you feed me slices that I just can't get under I will slice it back until I get the right look.

I don't recall seeing any 4.0 men at the Mid west sectional who used the slice as their predominant shot. I'm curious to know what @BeyondTheTape saw at nationals.

whats good Shaun.

From my opponents on the West Coast to the East Coast, down to the beaches of the island they call Puerto Rico - Your Mid-West experience holds true - never saw a FH slice as an opponent's predominant shot on that wing at 4.0 nationals (18s). Flat and Topspin FHs were the weapons on display. Although, this might not be the case for the Xx chromosome group or 40+ folks If youre wanting to go down the age/sex rabbit hole. I'll see myself out.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Slice is good for ball tolerance and longer points.
I don't think I've ever met anyone at 4.0 who did not slice.
Slice is what brings you to 4.0 b/c 3.5 maniacs try to topspin every ball.
This is why they lose against a slicer. Always

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Look at Keys' FH slice at 1:16
A 3.5 would have crushed that ball into the net, or into the fence
It keeps Keys in the point, and sets up her monster topspin on a later higher ball.
Perfect tennis in this point.

 

[Matthew ATX]

I use a forehand slice to return a really high bouncing topspin shot that is at eye level or above. It crosses the net low and skids with a low bounce and usually forces a neutral or weak response. I also use a short forehand slice in the serve box to bring in baseline bashers that are uncomfortable at net.

This is pretty effective against me. I'm mainly a doubles player, so I'm not uncomfortable at the net but I'm not very good at posititioning myself up there in singles, so when i do play singles, I baseline bash. A short sliced ball keeps me from hititing a great approach shot, so I end up standing up at the net (probably in the wrong place) getting passed like a goober.

 

[travlerajm]

Absolutely brilliant point at 2:38
Moonball was a genius set up shot.
It is worth watching a few times until you understand what happens.

The very last point is also classic 3.5 maniac

Finally a pro to validate my playing style.

 

[travlerajm]

I just returned from 3 weeks in South America. My hardcourt topspin forehand is useless on red clay, because I can’t adjust the swingpath midswing to take deep balls on the rise, and backing up and ripping topspin from 12 feet behind the baseline like Rafa is not a winning strategy for me.

So I find myself relying exclusively on slice on my forehand wing. I have my best results when I hold my ground near the baseline and take heavy incoming balls on the rise with slice, meeting the ball at head or shoulder height in my natural strike zone for the slice.

The slice forehand is a natural extension of the forehand volley. The clay court surface really grabs the ball and adds topspin and heaviness to the incoming shot, so poor form on the slice without a forward linear swingpath and strong deliberate stroke won’t work. My slice form is improving due to this self-correcting feedback. Since my clay opponents tend to play further behind the baseline, my use of slice actually gives me a positioning advantage and allows me to move my opponent side to side. I don’t try to approach with the slice very often - a deep topspin moonball works much better for that!

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

What is red clay about? The ball bounces higher? I thought the ball bounces higher on hard court.

 

[travlerajm]

What is red clay about? The ball bounces higher? I thought the ball bounces higher on hard court.

Ball bounces at higher angle due to added friction that slows forward momentum and converts it to topspin, and also with less predictable bounce angle due to imperfections in rough court surface. Also, even flatter shots like first serves pick up topspin after the bounce from the interaction with with ground, adding heaviness.

Defensive slice lobs bounce almost vertically. The other day my opponent hit one over my head, and when I ran back to play it after the bounce, I grossly overran it because I was expecting hardcourt style bounce to go near back fence. I could have had time to set up and hit a normal groundstroke from baseline.

 

[OnTheLine]

I had a match set up today with a friend ... he is a little less skilled than I but obviously there is the gender difference in play. We are both C rated 3.5. We played singles and I was surprised that I won first set easily. I think it was simply a consistency issue ... when he hit a "winner" I just said too good and went back to my game plan of attacking his BH and waiting for a short ball to get to net.

2nd set I decided that it was time to practice the two things I am working on. The chip and the forehand slice. Every single FH was either a chip or a slice .... turns out he liked those shots not at all.

The FH slice has become an incredibly safe shot for me but elicits more UEs from my opponents than a going-for-it TS forehand. At the same time, you can drive it deep.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Say, here's a question I've always wondered about: What's the difference between a chip and a slice?

 

[travlerajm]

Say, here's a question I've always wondered about: What's the difference between a chip and a slice?

Chips are always crisp, unless you’re in the UK.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Say, here's a question I've always wondered about: What's the difference between a chip and a slice?

I've always thought of a slice as a full-swing rally ball [ie what does to change the pace of a rally or a defensive shot when you're taken out wide] while a chip was a shortened swing when you don't have the luxury of time [ie a service or OH return].

Also, I've always thought of a chip as having slice/backspin; if the same stroke did not, I'd call it a block rather than a chip.

 

[OnTheLine]

I've always thought of a slice as a full-swing rally ball [ie what does to change the pace of a rally or a defensive shot when you're taken out wide] while a chip was a shortened swing when you don't have the luxury of time [ie a service or OH return].

Also, I've always thought of a chip as having slice/backspin; if the same stroke did not, I'd call it a block rather than a chip.

Yup what he said ....

The chip is much more like a volley strike ...

On my fh slice I take the ball a little later than my TS FH but it is a full swing.

I will say that if I am taken out wide to the FH side, I have found the chip to be a wonderful new addition to my shots as I have so much control with it ... but I had best have quick feet as it doesn't give you extra time to get re-positioned like the slice does.

 

[FiReFTW]

Slice is a great tool to have and use in certain situations, specialy if the opponent struggles against it.
Its also useful to neutralize big hitters, a very deep slice is hard to attack even if its floaty, since the ball has nothing on it.
Sure the opponent can be good at hitting dead balls, but the ball he can hit will still be slower than if you provided him with good pace to hit at.
Its also useful to bring someone in by using short angled slices and its quite a difficult shot to attack if hit well as the ball stays very low and moves away from the court and he will most likely be on the stretch to get to it.

 

[Koby1]

Slicing is very intriguing in tennis. A lot of people tend to find it gimmicky and not use it too much but it definitely does has its place. I think one of the main reasons people tend to stay away from slicing is that it doesn't "win" you the point. Slices are in general slower traveling and it thus can make it a lot harder to place, take away time, and move your opponent as effectively. Slices also tend to have a lot less margin because their trajectory doesn't curve down. That being said it has its benefits. Although you might not hit winners off of your slices a good slice makes a tough shot for the opponent. Because the ball doesn't sit up as much your opponents need to loop it more for good net clearance. This leads to a lot of extended rallies which can even the playing field. Also because the ball stays so low your opponent really has to use their leg muscles to get lower in the court to hit a good shot. If they look unfit keeping a ton of low angled balls can really do a number on them. A lot of people also don't have mentally what it takes to deal with the slice and will skimp out on continuously getting low. This will then lead to many unforced errors and a ton of coughed up short balls. Also because the ball stays so low it can be hard to get your body weight behind the ball thus its really easy to get thrown off balance from a slice. Lastly its just a change of pace. So many people now a days are focusing on topspin because its a high percentage shot, a shot that can hit winners, and the shot where you can develop power. Because of this people haven't hit against as many slices. This lack of practice can have a huge effect of how they hit against slices. People aren't used to it so they'll mess up. All of these factors make a good slicer really tough to stop. If they can run to the ball keep their slices positioned well and be able to hit a ton of balls you are in for a tough match. They might not be hitting winners all over the place but you better be fit and very focused or you're in for a ton of cramping and errors. Overall though even if slicing isn't your go to its definitely a really good piece to add to your game for all of these benefits.

 

[travlerajm]

Even on hard court, the forehand slice is my go-to shot on any ball up shoulder height or higher. I prefer to take the slice up high from on top of the baseline rather than retreat way behind the baseline to hit a topspin shot from waist high. For balls waist high or lower, I find the forehand slice more tricky, and I prefer to drive these with topspin. Basically, having the slice in my toolbox patches up what used to be a glaring hole in my game (high balls to the forehand). The better my slice gets, the more comfortable I feel defending any type of shot.

 

[travlerajm]

I also like the forehand slice as an offensive weapon when I get a weak sitter ball around the service line. The forehand slice allows me to hold the putaway shot until the last minute, since it doesn't require much backswing. This keeps my opponent from anticipating where I am going to go with it, and some times I can even wait until my opponent guesses at the last moment, then punch the putaway slice in the opposite direction.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I also like the forehand slice as an offensive weapon when I get a weak sitter ball around the service line. The forehand slice allows me to hold the putaway shot until the last minute, since it doesn't require much backswing. This keeps my opponent from anticipating where I am going to go with it, and some times I can even wait until my opponent guesses at the last moment, then punch the putaway slice in the opposite direction.

Also, many pros will tell you to slice your approach shots.
Balls stays low, so they hit up, and you have an easy high volley.

 

[MathGeek]

Say, here's a question I've always wondered about: What's the difference between a chip and a slice?

The chip is a shorter stroke that tends to result in less spin, sometimes almost no spin. For me, chips tend to be more defensive - unless followed by a charge when intended as an approach shot. Good approach chips tend to be flatter for me. I most commonly use the chip to return serves with lots of pace, and occasionally when a ball arrives deeper and more quickly than I had anticipated. The chip (for me) has biomechanics between a half-volley and a slice.

 

[IowaGuy]

So I find myself relying exclusively on slice on my forehand wing.

Santoro would be proud!

 

[IowaGuy]

What is red clay about? The ball bounces higher? I thought the ball bounces higher on hard court.

You might enjoy the book "Technical Tennis."

 

[IowaGuy]

Slices also tend to have a lot less margin because their trajectory doesn't curve down.

Slices have margin in other ways:

1.) Racket face points at the target longer, so less likely to shank.

2.) Slice can be hit deeper in your stance, so you have more time to hit a slice than a topspin (less prep needed).

3.) Slices travel slower, so more time for gravity to work on the ball to come down into opponent's court, compared to fast topspin shot.

4.) Slice takes less energy for you to hit, so safer shot if you're tired late in a match or in a long point.

 

[IowaGuy]

Slices are in general slower traveling and it thus can make it a lot harder to place, take away time, and move your opponent as effectively.

Slices might not take time away from your opponent, but they do make it harder for your opponent to take time away from you.

1.) The ball travels slower, so you can recover your court position easily.

2.) Since the slice travels slower, the opponent's ball coming back will have less pace on it. Thus, you'll be facing a shot with less pace than if you gave the opponent a fast topspin. This is a good tool against a hard-hitting opponent whose pace you're having trouble dealing with...

Watch Safin vs. Federer compard to Safin vs. Santoro to get a feel for how much slower shots are coming back from slices compared to fast topspins...

 

[BenC]

Random musings and theories:

Why question the FH slice? Nobody questions if the BH slice is effective.

My guess is that most people have a much more effective topspin FH vs slice FH in terms of strike zone, timing, pace, placement, etc so the FH slice is relegated mostly to defensive situations. For most people the topspin BH is more limited so the slice helps them reach balls they wouldn't be able to otherwise. From here, chicken and egg - people see the pros and imitate them, people (except junkballers) don't practice it as much, and they don't develop the feel and placement that would make it as effective as a BH slice.

One of my hitting partners recently found a string combo that clicked with his topspin FH. Incoming shots used to bounce to around shoulder height but now they're coming in at around head height (I'm short, dammit). I've found the FH slice an effective counter when I can't take it on the rise and I'm too tired/lazy to back up.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You might enjoy the book "Technical Tennis."

I actually own that book.
I love the chapter on strings, and how racket speed is the true factor on spin, not gimmick strings

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

The slice is a defense shot, most of the time.
Problem is that 3.0 and 3.5 want to play offense 100% of the time.

 

[ShaunS]

3.) Slices travel slower, so more time for gravity to work on the ball to come down into opponent's court, compared to fast topspin shot.

True, it's still not even remotely making up the difference in a heavy topspin shot though.

2.) Slice can be hit deeper in your stance, so you have more time to hit a slice than a topspin (less prep needed).

1.) The ball travels slower, so you can recover your court position easily.

These are two reasons it's such an effective defensive shot.

2.) Since the slice travels slower, the opponent's ball coming back will have less pace on it. Thus, you'll be facing a shot with less pace than if you gave the opponent a fast topspin.

The offset is that a better player will have had more time to setup for their next shot.

My guess is that most people have a much more effective topspin FH vs slice FH in terms of strike zone, timing, pace, placement, etc

I agree with your assessment entirely.

 

[IowaGuy]

The offset is that a better player will have had more time to setup for their next shot.

Yes, you make a good point here.

I think the key to using the slice offensively is to have a plan of what to do with your opponent's shot if they give you a weak reply to work with.

Graf was a master at this - she would slice a couple in a row, and then when the opponent gave her something she could work with (short ball, or a ball with heavy top but not a lot of pace) she would move in for the kill.

Fed often does the same - BH slice, and look for run-around FH on a weak reply from the opponent.

Even Santoro would attack a weak reply from his opponent, often hitting a topspin BH and coming to net behind it.

 

[IowaGuy]

True, it's still not even remotely making up the difference in a heavy topspin shot though.

Figure 4.16 in "Technical Tennis" has a good illustration of topspin (1200 RPM) vs. flat trajectories for the same speed of shot (67 MPH). The topspin can be hit 11.9 degrees from horizontal and still stay in the court, compared to flat which can only be hit at 8.1 degrees.

Would be interesting to reproduce this figure to include a slower slice shot (let's say 40 or 50 MPH).

 

[ShaunS]

I think the key to using the slice offensively is to have a plan of what to do with your opponent's shot if they give you a weak reply to work with.

Definitely. Use the situation to your benefit, and when you see your opening attack. Sometimes just mixing in a slice can throw off a baseliner who wants to grind big, heavy topspin, and let you get that better look.

Would be interesting to reproduce this figure to include a slower slice shot (let's say 40 or 50 MPH).

Somebody needs to take care of this for us!

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I kind of do a FH slice when I want to do a drop shot.
The heavier my strokes are getting, the most I am practicing drop shots.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I kind of do a FH slice when I want to do a drop shot.
The heavier my strokes are getting, the most I am practicing drop shots.

Makes sense: if your opponents are backing up anticipating a heavier TS ball and if you can step inside the BL, that's a great time to hit a DS.

 

[IowaGuy]

I kind of do a FH slice when I want to do a drop shot.
The heavier my strokes are getting, the most I am practicing drop shots.

Makes sense: if your opponents are backing up anticipating a heavier TS ball and if you can step inside the BL, that's a great time to hit a DS.

Also, the better your wide slice serve (deuce court for righty) and wide kick serve (ad court for righty), the more the court opens up for a drop shot since your opponent is pulled so far off the court.

 

[Cawlin]

Say, here's a question I've always wondered about: What's the difference between a chip and a slice?

As has been mentioned - the "chip" is still a "slice" shot in that it has backspin, but it's much more like a volley strike - and mostly you hear about "chip and charge" which is a great application of it - say you receive a short ball but maybe aren't in the best position to really attack it, or you're a little concerned about sending a TS FH long (as you would be if you were me!) but you still want to drive it deep and approach the net - switch to a continental grip, move the racquet with a short backswing from above the ball to below it (high to low) but the face isn't really open to the sky - maybe the top edge of your racquet is tilted back about 15 to 20 degrees... say the racquet head is angled at 1 or 2 o'clock if you were looking at it from the handle as a right hander (11 or 10 o'clock as a lefty)... that is what I'd call a "chip". One of the pieces of wisdom about slicing the ball is to take it on the rise - you can get away with a "chip" when it's coming back down again, so hitting that shot on the rise isn't as critical, though still preferred as this lets you drive it more crisply. I also will "chip" a FH slice shot if someone hits me a really wide serve to my FH that I can't get in position for a good TS FH... it's not exactly a "blocked back" return, but more of a "save me" shot that I am hitting with the hope of it staying low and going deep into the server's court.

Here's a pretty good quick video of Chrissy demonstrating a FH Slice Chip shot...

The full "slice" FH has similar racquet head motion to a BH slice, but IMO is much trickier - maybe because full FH slice is so unfamiliar and has the usual power of a FH (as opposed to a BH). The trickiest part of that shot is that racquet angle is critical and VERY touchy - just a few degrees too open and that FH full "slice" will sail (not float, but SAIL) long... too closed and it's into the net - and it's a narrow margin/range of face angle that will work... incoming pace makes a full FH slice harder to hit... so when I use a "full" FH slice, it's usually on a high TS ball to my forehand that I may be out of position for, or if it's just floating as from a lob from a "2-back" type of doubles team. I find it almost impossible to hit a full FH slice well unless I catch it on the rise. Backswing and followthrough for a full FH slice are as important as they are for BH slice as well... and the result of a well hit full FH slice can be just as "nasty" as a well hit hard driving BH slice.

These guys are kind of goofing around and slicing every ball back and forth, but you will see lots of examples of FH slice in this vid:

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

That slice off challenge was awesome.
I wish I could find someone to do that drill with.
Slice off both wings like that is tops on my 2019 drill list.

 

[Cawlin]

That slice off challenge was awesome.
I wish I could find someone to do that drill with.
Slice off both wings like that is tops on my 2019 drill list.

If you ever find yourself in the greater Atlanta metro area, let me know. I'll be happy to hit with you and work that drill.

 

[travlerajm]

Heading back to SA tomorrow. Red clay tennis is turning me into a slicing mad man.

 

[r2473]

Heading back to SA tomorrow. Red clay tennis is turning me into a slicing mad man.

I now understand this post.