Does Tsitsipas's game actually have ANY upside?

[thomasferrett]

Worst ever return, worst ever backhand slice, subpar topspin backhand, movement, volleys and second serve, mediocre serve, forehand and 1st serve.

How the hell has this guy made it inside the top 10,000 let alone top 10?

 

[Bumbaliceps]

Magical hair.

 

[Nadal_Django]

On pure intelligence.

 

[18x20 ftw]

First serve and forehand, the two most critical shots in men’s tennis.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

First serve and forehand, the two most critical shots in men’s tennis.

His movement is not too shabby for his height either.

 

[thomasferrett]

First serve and forehand, the two most critical shots in men’s tennis.

And both of which are weaknesses for Tsitsipas. He has a weak serve, forehand, backhand, return, movement and volleys. There is literally no strength.

 

[MeatTornado]

If Tsitsipas has subpar volleys then you must think there's only like 2 players with good volleys.

 

[3loudboys]

Tennis IQ, physicality, forehand which he can flatten out very successfully, good volleys and aggressive game. Can't agree that he has no strengths.

His ego maybe his biggest weakness - aside from that pretty one hander.

 

[18x20 ftw]

His ego maybe his biggest weakness

YOU DON’T KNOW!....YOU DON’T KNOW!

 

[weakera]

His only weakness is his return shot

 

[3loudboys]

YOU DON’T KNOW!....YOU DON’T KNOW!

Its tough being a dad...

 

[Third Serve]

Nice shots: FH, 1st serve, volleys are nice enough too

Bleh shots: BH, return, slice

 

[Fabresque]

First serve is solid, forehand is solid and he has an X factor in that he plays an all court game, doesn’t just hug the baseline but likes to come in. And he has a decent net game at that. Backhand and return is crap though, I’ll give you that.

 

[Sysyphus]

From Tennis Profiler, which does analyses based on actual stats on how his shots compare relative to his rivals instead of pure ttw feels

I'd say the stats align nicely with what my eyes see in this case. Stef indeed has a solid serve, one of the better forehands on tour, unremarkable/mediocre return and frankly kind of a weak backhand. His net game is also well above average compared to the tour and is a good addition to his game.

People harp a lot about his serve, sometimes even his forehand (which is very good), but I don't think enough is said about the fact that his backhand is an obvious weak spot for him. And it shows clearly in the stats as well -- the more backhands he has to hit in a point, the more likely he is to lose it.

 

[Red Rick]

From Tennis Profiler, which does analyses based on actual stats on how his shots compare relative to his rivals instead of pure ttw feels

I'd say the stats align nicely with what my eyes see in this case. Stef indeed has a solid serve, one of the better forehands on tour, unremarkable/mediocre return and frankly kind of a weak backhand. His net game is also well above average compared to the tour and is a good addition to his game.

People harp a lot about his serve, sometimes even his forehand (which is very good), but I don't think enough is said about the fact that his backhand is an obvious weak spot for him. And it shows clearly in the stats as well -- the more backhands he has to hit in a point, the more likely he is to lose it.

What's the scale?

In all seriousness, Tsitsipas has the type of game with nothing fundamentally world class but it can click and the sum can be bigger than the components, even if there's still weaknesses.

 

[stefmeister]

his forehand and volleys are op what are you saying.

have you ever seen him play?? watch Nadal v Tsitsipas Dubai exhibition

 

[Azure]

He's got a nice serve, nice forehand, decent game at the net. He just needs to strengthen his backhand. More importantly I think he also has a good mind on the court. Several upsides for sure!

 

[Sysyphus]

What's the scale?

In all seriousness, Tsitsipas has the type of game with nothing fundamentally world class but it can click and the sum can be bigger than the components, even if there's still weaknesses.

i don't really agree, and nor do the stats

he's a typical weapon-reliant player with very clear strengths that win him the most compared to his rivals (forehand and to some extent the serve) and very clear weaknesses as well (backhand and return).

His forehand is one of the very best on tour. All of the below takes into account whether he does statistically better or worse relative to his competition:

 

[Red Rick]

i don't really agree, and nor do the stats

he's a typical weapon-reliant player with very clear strengths that win him the most compared to his rivals (forehand and to some extent the serve) and very clear weaknesses as well (backhand and return).

His forehand is one of the very best on tour. All of the below takes into account whether he does statistically better or worse relative to his competition:

I didn't say it was average. But I'm not sure I'd consider it top 5. I consider him eerily similar to Dimitrov that his floor is really average so he must get really hot to win big matches, including scraping by pretty tight wins.

 

[mike danny]

his forehand and volleys are op what are you saying.

have you ever seen him play?? watch Nadal v Tsitsipas Dubai exhibition

Username checks out.

 

[Bamoos]

Backhand is pretty dire. Shocking performance against Nadal too.

 

[davced1]

Have you seen him play live in person? He is just one of those players you have to see live to fully appreciate.

 

[Born_to_slice]

His BH is severely underrated here. You can't be a top 10 player with one crap side (unless servebot).

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

i don't really agree, and nor do the stats

he's a typical weapon-reliant player with very clear strengths that win him the most compared to his rivals (forehand and to some extent the serve) and very clear weaknesses as well (backhand and return).

His forehand is one of the very best on tour. All of the below takes into account whether he does statistically better or worse relative to his competition:

Nobody these days has a historically ATG FH

 

[RF-18]

Lol at saying he has a weak FH. His FH is world class. Serve is solid and he can get free points from it, it's a good shot for him but considering his height you'd want it to be even better. He is a great athlete and can take it to anyone from the baseline, but his BH can be exploited but it isn't a weak shot, it's alright. his biggest problem is his return. That's the worst part of his game that he will need to work on. Other than that, with more experience and improving his game, I can easily see Tsitsipas becoming #1 one day.

 

[Sysyphus]

Nobody these days has a historically ATG FH

untestable, therefore unprovable, therefore irrelevant, good sport etc

the interesting question that can actually be meaningfully empirically illuminated, instead of just relying on biased feels, is how his forehand does relative to his actual competition here and now. And it does very well.

 

[mike danny]

Lol at saying he has a weak FH. His FH is world class. Serve is solid and he can get free points from it, it's a good shot for him but considering his height you'd want it to be even better. He is a great athlete and can take it to anyone from the baseline, but his BH can be exploited but it isn't a weak shot, it's alright. his biggest problem is his return. That's the worst part of his game that he will need to work on. Other than that, with more experience and improving his game, I can easily see Tsitsipas becoming #1 one day.

I think that once you have a weak return, it kinda stays with you.

 

[blablavla]

On pure intelligence.

I guess this is why some folks are destined to be trolls...

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

untestable, therefore unprovable, therefore irrelevant, good sport etc

the interesting question that can actually be meaningfully empirically illuminated, instead of just relying on biased feels, is how his forehand does relative to his actual competition here and now. And it does very well.

Whoever wins is peak, yes? Cause does tops.

 

[Red Rick]

untestable, therefore unprovable, therefore irrelevant, good sport etc

the interesting question that can actually be meaningfully empirically illuminated, instead of just relying on biased feels, is how his forehand does relative to his actual competition here and now. And it does very well.

One thing I do really think is with the Big 3 being as complete as they are we've kind of no reference of what the value of a standalone world class shot is. I guess I could put him up there with the forehands that is part of a very dangerous game on his day, but it won't carry a game like Del Potros or Gonzos did.
On the current Tour I'd rate Federer, Nadal and Thiem higher. Del Potro isn't officially retired yet. Rublev I think has a clearly higher floor.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I mean it tells us what is already clear, that Titz has great strengths and great weaknesses within the current tour. Nothing about cross-era comparisons, sadly enough.

 

[King No1e]

He's got a nice serve, nice forehand, decent game at the net. He just needs to strengthen his backhand. More importantly I think he also has a good mind on the court. Several upsides for sure!

Good mind? Must I remind you of the Coric debacle?

 

[metsman]

Wait Stef's FH is one of the best on tour today? Didn't realize things were this dire. I may start lacing up and training soon who knows how deep this ravine is.

 

[metsman]

Lol at saying he has a weak FH. His FH is world class. Serve is solid and he can get free points from it, it's a good shot for him but considering his height you'd want it to be even better. He is a great athlete and can take it to anyone from the baseline, but his BH can be exploited but it isn't a weak shot, it's alright. his biggest problem is his return. That's the worst part of his game that he will need to work on. Other than that, with more experience and improving his game, I can easily see Tsitsipas becoming #1 one day.

Stef probably hits his FH better naked than the rest of the tour since he practices it a lot. In a real match wearing clothes, not so sure.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Wait Stef's FH is one of the best on tour today? Didn't realize things were this dire. I may start lacing up and training soon who knows how deep this ravine is.

Oldjokodal's both obviously superior.

 

[metsman]

I don't follow the tour much, but I think considering the replies to OP that he must have mixed up Tsitsipas with the other guy named Tsitsipas that got soundly beaten by a 37 year old Nadal on an indoor HC in a do or die match. Understandable I guess.

 

[thomasferrett]

37 year old Nadal

Nadal is 51 years old, not 37

 

[metsman]

Nadal is 51 years old, not 37

I think you are mixing up the Nadal I am referring to with the Nadal that got beaten by Thiem and Schwartzman in straights.

 

[SinneGOAT]

He is great at shank lobs, as well as whiffing.

 

[TheRed]

It's not that his strokes are bad, but looking at him, at a guy that tall, with good coordination and movement, people expect him to be better.
I think his tennis mind is pretty good. He's no Nadal but he's not Zverev either, who I think plays like a lot of traditional Russian players (rally from the baseline all day, Doesn't seem to bring a lot of instinct or creativity).
Serve- It's a 7/10. But he's tall and well coordinated. But his motion doesn't seem to get his whole body into the serve. He kinda stands where he is and rotates as opposed to really leaning into the serve.
Forehand - 8/10 but not really any scarier than anyone in the top 5-8. One thing I notice is that his forehand has a hitch to it and he tends to arm it too much. On about a 1/3 of his forehands, he sticks out the right arm and whacks it. He's not using the left arm to bring the racquet around, getting the fluid natural rotation that incorporates the whole body.
Backhand - 6/10. Decent motion but imparts too much spin and it's not the heavy kind. It's just a rally shot.
Volleys - 7/10. He comes up with good volleys and his hands are pretty good. He's still figuring out how, when and at what angles to come in on but I like that he's one of the few young guys that likes to finish the point coming forward. I think he can really end up with as a real good all court player. Sorta like Fed. I know, I know, Fed's not an all court player in the Sampras mould but it's as close to one these days.
Movement- 7-8/10. He moves well, especially for that tall of a player. He's no djokovic but more like a Safin.
Returns - like everyone says, it's not good. His swing is too big but the results aren't scary. If you're gonna take a big swing, the results better be like Gonzo or Safin. There has to be a power/consistency trade-off but he's not getting either right now.
Power - Here's where probably the main gripe about him is. He's not totally a power player. Even his forehand, which is arguably his best shot, requires 2-3 shots to start getting an advantage. He really can access more power.

 

[Standaa]

yeah I don’t care enough to know either

 

[tudwell]

Tsitsipas is at 92% of service games held on hard courts for the year. Granted, that stat is from the ATP site and surely not including the ATP Finals, and also he lost early in most of the big hard court tournaments he played this season, so it’s no doubt bolstered by weak opposition. But last year he was at 87%. Those numbers are better than most years from taller players like Zverev, Medvedev, Cilic, Delpo. None of whom are servebots of course, but I think he’s punching above his weight a bit on serve, and a lot of it probably has to do with a great +1 forehand.

His return is terrible, though. I don’t know how the stats shake out on his backhand, but my eye test tells me it’s solid. Not a huge weapon but not an overwhelming weakness either. Other than the shanks that send the ball out of the stadium.

 

[Deleted member 771911]

It was fun to watch at first. It's been overly tinkered with. They should work to his strengths and not overcomplicate things. This happens to a lot of players. Ruined Gasquet and Dimitrov.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

I just find him underwhelming in pretty much all respects.

 

[game..set..match]

his biggest asset is the mental aspects (eg. intelligence, toughness, discipline).....all underrated attributes to being a great tennis player.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

How do you dislike a thread?

 

[AesBinz]

I think he's solid overall, though nothing really outstanding, but he moves well for his height and gritty enough to keep the point alive, also he can hide his directional forehands with his form. He's also taller than most people on tour so he can receive top spin shots on his more natural form. I think he's much better than Zverev as I can't see upside Zverev game and has glaring 2nd serve downside.

 

[Zoid]

Worst ever return, worst ever backhand slice, subpar topspin backhand, movement, volleys and second serve, mediocre serve, forehand and 1st serve.

How the hell has this guy made it inside the top 10,000 let alone top 10?

Upsides:
- Simple forehand and backhand strokes that allow him to play inside the court.
- Neutral forehand grip/short swing that should work well across conditions.
- Athletic enough to play aggressive forecourt game and also develop backhand
- Doesn't seem intimidated to play the top guys
- Decent volleys.
- Decent service motion*

Downsides:
- Poor backhand chip return and in play slice - particularly his defensive slice is woeful for a one-hander. He should look to Dan Evans for inspiration.
- Poor balance after serve.
- A lack of penetration on the backhand down the line.

 

[Azure]

Good mind? Must I remind you of the Coric debacle?

I don't follow every match but he really analyses the game well. If you listen to his post match interviews he talks well about percentage games, switching tactics etc - not the usual stuff. I really like him. Now bother someone else. Shoo

 

[zipplock]

His weakness IS his strength...