Eastern grip to Semi Western for Junior...how hard is the switch?

[giantschwinn]

I have a grip dilemma. My son is 5.5 years old. I taught him eastern forehand. Federer is my God and I want my son to hit forehands like him. I have no illusions of my son turning pro and all I want for him is to play an attacking brand of tennis. The problem is he is not getting it...at least not yet. The main reason is he is hitting the ball at head level most of the time and opening up the racquet face at contact. He is pretty short now, balls are bouncing too high for him. Sure I tell him to move back but there is only so much he can do and he would have to be back at the fence if he wants to hit at waist high. I am thinking to introducing him to semi western grip but only use it for high balls when he doesn't have time to get in position to hit at waist high. I can dumb it down for him and go back to orange balls but I would rather him learn to deal with high balls.

Now here is my question for you:
Is it easier to go from Easter to Semi-western than say going from Western to Semi-western? From my personal experience, my default forehand grip is Eastern but I can hit semi-western if I wanted to. But if you tell me to hit continental I can't do it. I am particularly interested in inputs from people who have junior that switched from Eastern to Semi-western. How difficult was the switch for your junior?

 

[FiReFTW]

As hard as switching from semi western forehand to eastern forehand.

 

[Daniel Waters]

I personally think it's easier to move from a more conservative grip such as eastern to semi-western versus the other way around.

You could certainly show your son a semiwestern grip, but I'm not sure that's the best long term solution. Even with a semiwestern grip, if the ball bounces really high, then even the semiwestern grip can still be hard to get the racquet face squared up. As a short player, my forehand grip over time shifted more and more western due to balls bouncing so high on me. I didn't take lessons or ever even have someone show me various grips. I just played instinctively, and the extreme grip just felt right and I kept shifting my grip in that direction. Long term, this was a mistake, as my swing became all spin and not as developed or versatile as it could have been. Having to relearn to hit eith a more conservative grip after hitting a certain way for 20 years was a year of h*** for me.

An eastern grip can cover high balls. In fact, balls around his shoulder he should be able to really drive and crush them. You just need to have him hit a lot of balls where he learns how to get his racquet face closed just enough and the swing path he needs to drive those balls and they stay in. Practice enough of those and get his confidence built up on them. For balls that are higher than shoulder height or above his head that are too high to really drive down into the court, you might teach him a loopier 3/4 pace topspin shot where he is just trying to get the ball back. You just may need a certain verbal cue or small tweak that clicks for him on balls like that (for me, when the ball is really above my head, I really focus on keeping my hitting arm elbow really high, make sure I'm keeping racquet face square or slightly closed, and i take what I call a lasso swing...not sure I can describe it properly here and I'm probably not the swing to model after...I'm just saying if I can learn to hit balls over my head with a more conservative grip after using an extreme western grip for 30 years, he can learn to hit these balls also with enough practice). At his age, I can't imagine kids blasting the ball with pace. Making him move up or back to hit the ball in the ideal contact zone for his grip is not a bad habit for him to learn! When you change a grip, it can impact so many things that I'm not sure I'd go down that rabbit hole yet if I didn't have to, especially with someone who is so young.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

If Federer is who you love ... and Federer is who you'd love him to play/look like ... then stick with the eastern. Truth is ... MANY people have problems with high balls ... and the solution is not (in falling back ... in moving up ... or) in a grip change ... but in changing how far forward contact is ... and in making sure the attitude of the elbow is mindfully controlled. In short ... contact is farther back ... and the elbow (which controls "elevation") is still forward and pointed down ~ MG

 

[giantschwinn]

Daniel and Mountain Ghost, thank you for your thoughtful comments. You guys are absolutely right with enough strength and practice he should be able to handle high balls with eastern. I might just have to be patient. I also agree that it’s easier to go from eastern to semi western than going the other way...based on my own experience. This is why I worry that once he goes semi western he might have difficulty switching back. This is why I would like him to switch to semi western only for shots above his shoulder. Not sure how this plan is going to work out though.

 

[movdqa]

I went from a Continental to an Eastern around 17 and an Eastern to a Semi-Western in my 40s. Both transitions took six months. I hit the ball into the net a lot and lost lots of matches. But I considered it a long-term investment and I'm glad that I did it both times. A bonus is that I can still hit forehands with the Continental and Eastern grips if I want to and it is useful in some cases, particularly when forward of the baseline.

But that's a lot of stress on a 5-year-old kid. I understood the technical benefits of the grip changes and it was something that I made a long-term commitment to do realizing the cost. I don't know that a 5-year-old understands that. It's something that the person wants badly enough to overcome the frustration along the way. If he can do that because he wants to, then I think that it can work - but he has to understand the long-term cost. And, at 5-years-old, you don't have a lot of life experiences in long-term costs.

 

[Bagel Boy]

It's not about difficulty, it's about the long term.

@Daniel Waters and @Mountain Ghost are spot on.

Using a W will feel more comfortable in balls above the chest....shots kids encounter frequently.
The downside is that it develops poor stroke mechanics...they lean back, bend the elbow too much and cut the swing short. SW and E will feel more awkward at first...but long term they develop fuller swings. I would only encourage going W if they go towards it on their own as they get older.

You could move over his E very slightly and see if it helps, before committing to two separate ones. But if the E is good enough for the Maestro...

 

[Dragy]

@giantschwinn what’s the setting he receives high balls in? Is he playing other kids most of the time? Is this any kind of competitive tennis where he’s supposed to win, at the age of 5.5?

 

[Wise one]

He's simply too young. Leave him alone.

 

[Searah]

most children here get taught the forehand grip of "place the racket on the ground then pick it up" "pick it up off ground.. that is your forehand grip"

also balls bouncing to high? here.. at least by age.. he should be on red ball i think.. the big red balls.. they don't bounce much. red > orange > green > normal yellow.

so they gradually learn and adapt to the bouncier balls and work on technique along the way. also the children just aren't strong enough ect the wrist so on for hard balls.

 

[giantschwinn]

---

 

[Daniel Waters]

Here is a slow motion of his forehand when the ball height is still manageable. If the ball is any higher, his racquet face opens up. Yellow ball, coming from a ball machine from the baseline. I also think his contact point is a little too early/ too much to the front. It's a work in progress.
Slow motion forehand

Pretty good stroke if you ask me! His racquet face does open up a bit, but I don't think it's a grip issue (at least in that one shot). I think you are correct about his contact point.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

At this early of a stage I would really resist the desire for his stroke to "look" like a modern forehand. He currently does not have mindful awareness (or control) of his racquet face angle. His racquet face should be VERTICAL throughout the entire process ... from ready position ... through the backswing ... to racquet-back position ... forward stroke ... contact ... and follow through. The racquet facing down at the very start of his take back ... and the whippyness at the end of his follow through ... may seem "correct" (and "cool") to whoever taught it to him ... but he is nowhere near ready for that. At the very back of his backswing his racquet face is open ... indicating he has not been taught to be aware of it. Changes to the racquet face angle should come later in his evolution ... once he has more mastery of a simpler and more controlled stroke ~ MG

 

[CJ Tennis]

Dad, been teaching kids for many years, including my own starting at 2 years old. To be honest, you need to take a few steps backwards in his development first. Use hand feeds and orange balls for now. At his age the grips will change over time...the best thing is he is not in an extreme western grip that most kids his age gravitate to. So if you like Eastern fine, I prefer most go with semi western but its a personal choice.

But the MUCH bigger issue is to use balls and feeds more appropriate to his stage of tennis. I know its 'cool' to have your kid hitting yellow balls from the baseline but in the long term its far more important to do things right. Look up 'Hand Feeds' and 'Spanish X pattern' on You Tube. Get him bouncing on his toes, all the time, while waiting for the balls, no exceptions. Use the hand feeds to get the orange balls in his contact zone first, once he is an ace at stroke mechanics, move him with the hand feeds, up and back, side to side. Hand feeds are amazing and can and should be used to teach kids how move to get balls in their contact zones and then move. Then move to green dots once he is amazing with orange balls.

Racquet feeds and longer distance feeds, and regulation bounce balls, like in your video should be used only when kids can move fast enough to hit balls in their contact zone most of the time. Him hitting balls over his head like that just means you need to go back a few steps in the process.

 

[shadow01]

Dad, been teaching kids for many years, including my own starting at 2 years old. To be honest, you need to take a few steps backwards in his development first. Use hand feeds and orange balls for now. At his age the grips will change over time...the best thing is he is not in an extreme western grip that most kids his age gravitate to. So if you like Eastern fine, I prefer most go with semi western but its a personal choice.

But the MUCH bigger issue is to use balls and feeds more appropriate to his stage of tennis. I know its 'cool' to have your kid hitting yellow balls from the baseline but in the long term its far more important to do things right. Look up 'Hand Feeds' and 'Spanish X pattern' on You Tube. Get him bouncing on his toes, all the time, while waiting for the balls, no exceptions. Use the hand feeds to get the orange balls in his contact zone first, once he is an ace at stroke mechanics, move him with the hand feeds, up and back, side to side. Hand feeds are amazing and can and should be used to teach kids how move to get balls in their contact zones and then move. Then move to green dots once he is amazing with orange balls.

Racquet feeds and longer distance feeds, and regulation bounce balls, like in your video should be used only when kids can move fast enough to hit balls in their contact zone most of the time. Him hitting balls over his head like that just means you need to go back a few steps in the process.

agree In the use of orange balls (maybe green). He looks to be past the red ball phase. Orange balls will allow him to concentrate on technique more as it slows down the game also will be gentler on his arms at this stage. Something else to consider- if he would like to play matches associated with usta, he can’t play in yellow ball tournaments until he is 11 - unless he goes through the orange and green ball progression (rules are changing in 2021 - but I doubt they will eliminate that requirement).

 

[Bender]

Pretty sure Federer for most of his best years used an extreme eastern grip, and didn't switch to a full eastern grip until later on in his career.

 

[giantschwinn]

He mostly plays green dot. He is hitting yellow in the video only because the ball machine at my club shoots out yellow. Green dot and really old yellow is practically the same. His group lesson coach suggested I switch to green dot. I would have kept him in orange if there were kids in my area that can rally in orange. It seems like kids that are any good are moved to green dot to start rally and play points from the baseline. I also think having him deal with faster ball, higher bouncing ball builds character and forces him to be faster on his feet. It's not such a bad thing that he is put out of his comfort zone a little bit. He is happily playing tennis and that's the most important thing at this stage. I am aware of the deficiency in his forehand...particularly the racquet face at beginning of forward swing. This thread is however about the racquet face at contact...which is both a grip issue and a ball bounce recognition issue. I think you guys have convinced me not to go western. And be more patient with the eastern grip and incorporate semi-western for higher bouncing balls.

 

[hurworld]

Or, teach him to take the ball early / on the rise. After all, that's what Fed would do.

 

[TwistAndShout]

All my posts are about my now 15-year-old boy but 10 years ago he was hitting Quickstart balls:

 

[pencilcheck]

I don't really think forcing a form will help at this age, I would imagine the first thing is to train the ball bounce and feel

 

[giantschwinn]

All my posts are about my now 15-year-old boy but 10 years ago he was hitting Quickstart balls:

Ambidextrous! Does he still hit with two forehands?

 

[TwistAndShout]

Ambidextrous! Does he still hit with two forehands?

He can: