Etiquette when asked about another's coach?

[BMC9670]

There is a "tennis teacher" that gives privates at our local courts through our community HOA. I put this in quotes because I feel she cannot teach or coach at all in terms of basic fundamentals and progressions. She has some young kids, mostly beginners, and I see her a lot as my son and I often practice on an adjacent court. It kills me to see what she is teaching, or rather, teaching wrong to the kids, but I never thought it was my place to say anything.

Well, yesterday, the father of a 9YO girl asked what I thought of her progress as we see them most every week. I pointed out her good attitude, effort, and some other attributes, but also pointed out some technical flaws as PC as I could. He seemed surprised and said the "coach" has been saying she is doing great and shows real progress. He asked me if I teach kids besides my son. I don't.

While I hate to see beginners being taught wrong (and I mean REALLY wrong - pancake grip serves, chop/slice forehands, baseline rallies when not ready, etc), I don't want to badmouth this woman. Anyone have a similar experience?

 

[sureshs]

Ask the father to find out if she is certified by USPTA/USPTR.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Unfortunately, all the time.

 

[BMC9670]

Ask the father to find out if she is certified by USPTA/USPTR.

I can't imagine she is, but then again, neither are a lot of good teachers/coaches.

 

[BMC9670]

Unfortunately, all the time.

Do you say anything? I haven't until I was asked.

 

[LeeD]

Also, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
And there are different schools of thought as to teaching beginner kids.
Just like there are different schools of thought for teaching beginner adults.
Just like there are different schools of thought for teaching ADVANCED adults.

 

[sureshs]

I can't imagine she is, but then again, neither are a lot of good teachers/coaches.

If she is not, that might be an opening for you to tell the father to look through some of the USPTA progressions and decide if the teaching makes sense. That way, he can decide for himself objectively and you don't need to feel guilty one way or the other.

 

[LeeD]

I see a possible problem with this senario.
Seems the parent of the other student doesn't know HIMSELF, whether the instruction is good or not!
Seems it's up to the paying parent to decide, not an adjoining court player teaching his own kid.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Do you say anything? I haven't until I was asked.

Never. It's not my place.

 

[sureshs]

I see a possible problem with this senario.
Seems the parent of the other student doesn't know HIMSELF, whether the instruction is good or not!
Seems it's up to the paying parent to decide, not an adjoining court player teaching his own kid.

That is pretty obvious.

The issue here is that the parent has asked OP for an opinion. So such comments do not really help here. Of course it is the parent's money and so on. We know that.

OP is looking for helpful answers.

 

[BMC9670]

I see a possible problem with this senario.
Seems the parent of the other student doesn't know HIMSELF, whether the instruction is good or not!
Seems it's up to the paying parent to decide, not an adjoining court player teaching his own kid.

He doesn't know and of course it's up to him. He see's me training my son and my son is good. That's why he asked me what I thought and if I train kids. Normally I would just keep to my own business but he asked. I didn't want to lie, but I don't want to dis the teacher as well.

 

[BMC9670]

Also, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
And there are different schools of thought as to teaching beginner kids.
Just like there are different schools of thought for teaching beginner adults.
Just like there are different schools of thought for teaching ADVANCED adults.

No, this guy has an interest in teaching his kid how to play tennis, and she has no clue, period.

 

[sureshs]

He doesn't know and of course it's up to him. He see's me training my son and my son is good. That's why he asked me what I thought and if I train kids. Normally I would just keep to my own business but he asked. I didn't want to lie, but I don't want to dis the teacher as well.

If you are a reasonably good club player and have been for many years, there is nothing wrong in voicing your opinion when asked for it.

 

[BMC9670]

Never. It's not my place.

In my scenario, what would you have said to the guy?

 

[LeeD]

I'd say..."She has her own way of teaching the kids" "Is your kid learning at the pace you'd expect, and is your kid learning new things every day". And of course, you already mentioned FUN was a positive to her lessons.

 

[sureshs]

Is she using the 10 and under balls and rackets and smaller courts?

 

[BMC9670]

I'd say..."She has her own way of teaching the kids" "Is your kid learning at the pace you'd expect, and is your kid learning new things every day". And of course, you already mentioned FUN was a positive to her lessons.

And I'd be lying. How is teaching the most basic fundamentals of a game wrong her own way of teaching, or leading to progress? You can certainly teach the game correctly and have fun, that's not the issue.

 

[BMC9670]

Is she using the 10 and under balls and rackets and smaller courts?

No. Small rackets but yellow balls on a full court. It's brutal.

 

[newpball]

There is a "tennis teacher" that gives privates at our local courts through our community HOA. I put this in quotes because I feel she cannot teach or coach at all in terms of basic fundamentals and progressions. She has some young kids, mostly beginners, and I see her a lot as my son and I often practice on an adjacent court. It kills me to see what she is teaching, or rather, teaching wrong to the kids, but I never thought it was my place to say anything.

Well, yesterday, the father of a 9YO girl asked what I thought of her progress as we see them most every week. I pointed out her good attitude, effort, and some other attributes, but also pointed out some technical flaws as PC as I could. He seemed surprised and said the "coach" has been saying she is doing great and shows real progress. He asked me if I teach kids besides my son. I don't.

While I hate to see beginners being taught wrong (and I mean REALLY wrong - pancake grip serves, chop/slice forehands, baseline rallies when not ready, etc), I don't want to badmouth this woman. Anyone have a similar experience?

The backseat driver always know better........

 

[LeeD]

Not once have you given an example of your idea of "WRONG"

 

[Ash_Smith]

I have often been asked this in the past, both in my roles as a coach and as a coach educator.

I do not like to speak down about fellow professionals, as it is all too easy to watch a lesson and have no idea what is actually being done and for what reason when watching, but to jump to an assumption.

If i do disagree with what the coach in question is doing, my usual response is something along the lines "it isn't necessarily the way I would teach it" or similar.

 

[BMC9670]

The backseat driver always know better........

?!? What does that mean?

 

[BMC9670]

Not once have you given an example of your idea of "WRONG"

First post, just to name a few... there are many more.

 

[Vcore89]

Is she using the 10 and under balls and rackets and smaller courts?

Smaller courts and lower height of net. As a kid I remember the net barely above eye-level (smaller kids see though the net) but as an adult I tower over the net.

 

[LeeD]

Hindsight can be 100%.
Under the gun, your options are limited.
Sunday evening football analysts always are more correct than losing coach's.

 

[BMC9670]

I have often been asked this in the past, both in my roles as a coach and as a coach educator.

I do not like to speak down about fellow professionals, as it is all too easy to watch a lesson and have no idea what is actually being done and for what reason when watching, but to jump to an assumption.

If i do disagree with what the coach in question is doing, my usual response is something along the lines "it isn't necessarily the way I would teach it" or similar.

I thought this when I first came across her. But after months of seeing her with the same kids, it's very obvious that she doesn't know what she's doing. I suspect she is a mom in the community who got hooked up with the HOA somehow because she "used to play".

Anyway, I have not talked down about her, just answered the guys question. Then I realized I don't want it to come across wrong.

 

[LeeD]

Is it WRONG to show a kid instant gratification using a pancake serve to start rally, in a COMMUNITY group tennis for kids program?

 

[BMC9670]

Is it WRONG to show a kid instant gratification using a pancake serve to start rally, in a COMMUNITY group tennis for kids program?

You're just picking one example. But yes, IMO it's wrong. When you pay someone to teach something, the expectation is that it's being taught at least somewhat correctly. As I said, the father asked me what I thought of her progress and technique. And IMO, teaching correct technique leads to progress.

 

[caugas]

Ask the father to find out if she is certified by USPTA/USPTR.

I've seen alot of USPTA certified teachers that were not great at (1) teaching or (2) communication

 

[LeeD]

"young kids, mostly beginners, community kid's program"
I think it's fine to show a kid how to serve with a forehand grip at this stage of the game.
The kids are NOT being trained for future professional tennis.
The kids probably don't WANT to take the time to learn correct service grip.
Instant rally, the kids are having fun, the adults are happy.
When dissatisfaction comes in, the parent should seek private instruction with the goal of guiding the kid to a professional career....as the main goal.

 

[newpball]

Yes!

"young kids, mostly beginners, community kid's program"
I think it's fine to show a kid how to serve with a forehand grip at this stage of the game.
The kids are NOT being trained for future professional tennis.
The kids probably don't WANT to take the time to learn correct service grip.
Instant rally, the kids are having fun, the adults are happy.
When dissatisfaction comes in, the parent should seek private instruction with the goal of guiding the kid to a professional career....as the main goal.

Common sense rules!

 

[caugas]

"young kids, mostly beginners, community kid's program"
I think it's fine to show a kid how to serve with a forehand grip at this stage of the game.
The kids are NOT being trained for future professional tennis.
The kids probably don't WANT to take the time to learn correct service grip.
Instant rally, the kids are having fun, the adults are happy.
When dissatisfaction comes in, the parent should seek private instruction with the goal of guiding the kid to a professional career....as the main goal.

I kind of agree here. These are group lessons, with kids at and HOA tennis court. I'm assuming expectations are low and it's about fun, play and interaction with other kids, right? If the kid wants to turn pro, I suggest other coaching options...

 

[BMC9670]

"young kids, mostly beginners, community kid's program"
I think it's fine to show a kid how to serve with a forehand grip at this stage of the game.
The kids are NOT being trained for future professional tennis.
The kids probably don't WANT to take the time to learn correct service grip.
Instant rally, the kids are having fun, the adults are happy.
When dissatisfaction comes in, the parent should seek private instruction with the goal of guiding the kid to a professional career....as the main goal.

Common sense rules!

Really? Just because it's not a professional endeavor, you should not teach/learn the basic fundamentals correctly? Wow.

 

[BMC9670]

I kind of agree here. These are group lessons, with kids at and HOA tennis court. I'm assuming expectations are low and it's about fun, play and interaction with other kids, right? If the kid wants to turn pro, I suggest other coaching options...

Not group lessons. Privates. One-on-one. $45 a pop for 45 minutes.

 

[SpinToWin]

Not group lessons. Privates. One-on-one. $45 a pop for 45 minutes.

ehhhh… Well, I'd tell the parent to come and see for himself and bring someone along who he believes knows what he's talking about in case he feels that he himself is not qualified. That way you're out of the firing range and the issue can be resolved by the parties directly involved.

 

[LeeD]

OK, private paid lesson.
Does the 9 year old student already KNOW how to hit the ball over the net, serve with pancake, and return some shots?
If not, it's fine.
If the 9 year old has surpassed all the previous group lessons, then it IS time to learn real strokes. BUT, for most female 9 year olds, the serve is learned AFTER the forehand and 2hbh.

 

[sureshs]

I've seen alot of USPTA certified teachers that were not great at (1) teaching or (2) communication

That is true for any kind of certification in any area.

 

[BMC9670]

OK, private paid lesson.
Does the 9 year old student already KNOW how to hit the ball over the net, serve with pancake, and return some shots?
If not, it's fine.
If the 9 year old has surpassed all the previous group lessons, then it IS time to learn real strokes. BUT, for most female 9 year olds, the serve is learned AFTER the forehand and 2hbh.

OK, I agree the serve can come later, but that's part of my point. There is no progression. In fact, the lessons are all start with the serve, from the baseline, pancake. No warm up, no instruction, no progression from net, to service line, to mid court, to baseline.

Same with ground strokes. Start at the baseline, whatever grip she wants, crazy swing paths, balls flying everywhere. No mini tennis, no toss feeds. I've never heard the teacher even talk about how to hit the ball, mostly just "Good!" or "Excellent!" if it goes in.

If this was a group for really young kids, I would agree that those are more like activity-based babysitting. But the father seemed genuinely interested enough to pay for lessons and the girl has a great attitude. He asked, so I told him what I thought.

 

[newpball]

OK, I agree the serve can come later, but that's part of my point. There is no progression. In fact, the lessons are all start with the serve, from the baseline, pancake. No warm up, no instruction, no progression from net, to service line, to mid court, to baseline.

Same with ground strokes. Start at the baseline, whatever grip they want, crazy swing paths, balls flying everywhere. No mini tennis, no toss feeds. I've never heard the teacher even talk about how to hit the ball, mostly just "Good!" or "Excellent!" if it goes in.

Perhaps you should pay more attention to your son when you play with him?

I take it your son has developed a flawless technique like his dad?

 

[LeeD]

Your description of the private seems to involve a beginner 9 year old, not one who already went thru some basic lessons. As such, having fun is paramount, instruction secondary.
However, we don't KNOW for sure, without seeing the kid hit or asking the parent about goals and expectations.
Possibly, parent is paying to keep the child occupied and having fun, not really looking for real instruction.

 

[BMC9670]

Perhaps you should pay more attention to your son when you play with him?

I take it your son has developed a flawless technique like his dad?

Wow, why the chip? I was asked by this guy, I didn't seek it out and stick my nose in there touting my or my son's ability. I didn't talk badly about the teacher to the guy, just gave my opinion and the fact that I even posted this was because I DON'T want to come off as a know-it-all or a-hole. Obviously you don't worry about that last one.

 

[LeeD]

It appears, we of NorthernCalifornia, have somewhat of a chip on our shoulders today.
My excuse. I"m frustrated with my pulled lower back, can't put on shoes, can't get into a VWGolf, can't swing a racket, and it took almost an hour to install 11 electrical outlet plates in the living room.

 

[BMC9670]

^^^ Sorry to hear that. No fun.

 

[LeeD]

It's cool, should be out a week. I'll miss windsurfing the most, my van is loaded with 5 boards, 14 sails, 4 booms, and 11 masts. Not to mention the 4 wetsuits ready for action.
I used to teach beginners at GoldenGatePark, SF, and of course, we were taught ONE method.
After a few years past this one summer of torture, I found there are many different ways to teach tennis, and most seem to work to some degree for some students.
Currently, at our local 6 public courts, there are at least 5 instructors getting paid to teach their privates.
Seems all use a different system.
1. Stress groundies and mechanical strokes.
2. Stress pinpoint strike point and wood rackets.
3. Stress mainly hitting on the run, horrid no foot movement on shots into the body, but he's a solid Open level player.
4. Stresses talking about movement, how to exactly, and much less on strokes and ideas
5. Guess I remember only 4, the lefty moving on to greener pastures.

 

[heninfan99]

It's hard to say. If you saw Richard Williams or Mike Agassi in action when their kids were 9 would their teaching style have looked proper? I don't know.

I think you handled it well. You were asked directly and were nice about it.

 

[Topspin Shot]

In my scenario, what would you have said to the guy?

Having been asked, I would have told him his daughter probably should learn more advanced form if she wants to become a better player, and he should consider looking for a coach currently in the process of coaching ranked players. If he were to push back, I would let it go.

 

[caugas]

Not group lessons. Privates. One-on-one. $45 a pop for 45 minutes.

OK I see, interesting...

 

[newpball]

I didn't talk badly about the teacher to the guy, .....

No, instead you are badmouthing the teacher here on this forum.

 

[TeamOB]

If he is asking you, he probably has some doubts about the "coach". Just give him your honest opinion. It is better in the long run.

 

[Cobaine]

Why is it considered bad mouthing if it's the truth? The only real issue is how it's said. If he were to say "she's a joke," then that could be considered disrespectful. But saying "I don't think she's been properly trained as a coach," or "what she teaches is very unorthodox and probably not good for your daughters game is she plans to take tennis seriously" - I see nothing wrong with that.