FH update, introducing the FH-Lag (video)

[tdk]

Hi, have been more or less away for 3y due to a shoulder injury. More so, Ive been stuck on what seens a terminally intermediate level. However, last week I stumbled onto a video on youtube explaining the secrets behind the so called FH-Lag. It showed me a move that I had not been aware of before. When I went out on court and gave it a try I was immediatly rewarded with excellent ground strokes. Suddenly I was able to put spinn on the ball and controll it like never before. Solid, hard and consistant FH's, what more can you aske for.

Here is the video: http://youtu.be/YH_0_ua1-VA

For anyone not aware of the move let me try to explain it. Note Im not a pro, just an entusiastic 50y old tennis player so maybe Im explaining and/or doing it all wrong. Its best spotted in my starting shot from clip 2.

Insted of pointing the racket 180deg away from the oncomming ball and swing it from there Im pointing it 90deg to the side, at the camera. Its too simple to be true. For me there was nothing more to it. Just angling the racket to the side insted of to the back. As I start to swing my arm at the ball the racket head remains pritty much in the same place. So my arm is swinging at the ball but my racket head "lags" behind. As I contact the ball my racket head has caught up with the rest of the hand and after I hit the ball the racket will swing through and past my arm. We are talking about racket head accelleration and speed. This requires a loose wrist.

I have been using the same technique on my BH and my serve without understanding what I was doing or that it could be used for my FH as well. Well, better late than never.

Thats all for this time. Hope to hear some comments from players out there that have some input on this topic. And give me pointers on how to go from here.

Thanks, Tom

 

[mightyrick]

It's called the stretch-shortening cycle forehand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE4IIl4HPe0

 

[WildVolley]

You are hitting more of the ATP-style forehand. While this discussion ticks off supporters of WTA-style takebacks for amateurs, I think that most men don't need to take the racket behind the shoulder to get pace.

Good job and some nice hitting.

 

[Cheetah]

Watch this video. Specifically where he talks about 'turning the hand': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ccud4yjHbM

 

[sureshs]

Insted of pointing the racket 180deg away from the oncomming ball and swing it from there Im pointing it 90deg to the side, at the camera. Its too simple to be true. For me there was nothing more to it. Just angling the racket to the side insted of to the back. As I start to swing my arm at the ball the racket head remains pritty much in the same place. So my arm is swinging at the ball but my racket head "lags" behind. As I contact the ball my racket head has caught up with the rest of the hand and after I hit the ball the racket will swing through and past my arm. We are talking about racket head accelleration and speed. This requires a loose wrist.

That is how I and most players I know, male or female, hit the ball. It is just the pat the dog kind of motion. Pointing it 90 degrees to the side works because you are also turning your body sideways, which adds another 90 degrees, which makes the total 180 degrees. At the extreme end of your backswing, it is 180 degrees to the ball.

 

[tdk]

You are hitting more of the ATP-style forehand. While this discussion ticks off supporters of WTA-style takebacks for amateurs, I think that most men don't need to take the racket behind the shoulder to get pace.

Good job and some nice hitting.

Thanks. However, Im not sure I understand the difference between ATP and WTA style forehands! Are you saying that my takeback ala ATP is short but ok for me while most amateurs are better off using a WTA style longer back take forehands?

 

[tdk]

Watch this video. Specifically where he talks about 'turning the hand': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ccud4yjHbM

Are you saying that I dont turn the hand enough?

 

[tdk]

That is how I and most players I know, male or female, hit the ball. It is just the pat the dog kind of motion. Pointing it 90 degrees to the side works because you are also turning your body sideways, which adds another 90 degrees, which makes the total 180 degrees. At the extreme end of your backswing, it is 180 degrees to the ball.

Yes, you are right. My racket points towards the back but isnt that part of the LAG of the racket head? I mean that my takeback takes the racket to aprox 90deg and yes my body turns and that adds a bit of backswing but the the racket does not point 180deg back before I am swinging my arm forward. Lagging the racket head behind. Pointing it back? Or?

 

[WildVolley]

Thanks. However, Im not sure I understand the difference between ATP and WTA style forehands! Are you saying that my takeback ala ATP is short but ok for me while most amateurs are better off using a WTA style longer back take forehands?

The short takeback which keeps the racket head from going back behind the line of the shoulders in the takeback has become the standard on the ATP Tour (there are, of course, rare exceptions). Usually, this is also combined with a "pat the dog movement" which has a relatively closed racket face at the end of the backswing leading into the forward swing.

Let me make it clear that I think this is the technique that should be taught to most men because it still allows plenty of power while shortening the stroke length and therefore making timing slightly easier.

Most WTA players allow the racket head to remain above the hand and behind the line of the shoulders at the end of the backswing. It is longer swing which allows people to potentially develop more power, but I believe it makes timing more difficult.

 

[WildVolley]

That is how I and most players I know, male or female, hit the ball. It is just the pat the dog kind of motion. Pointing it 90 degrees to the side works because you are also turning your body sideways, which adds another 90 degrees, which makes the total 180 degrees. At the extreme end of your backswing, it is 180 degrees to the ball.

Whooaaah! When did you change your opinion? Or am I misremembering things?

I thought you were a defender of the WTA technique for amateur players?

I apologize in advance if I'm confusing you with someone else.

 

[mightyrick]

I thought you were a defender of the WTA technique for amateur players?

By "WTA technique", you basically mean arming the ball, right? ;-)

 

[Cheetah]

Are you saying that I dont turn the hand enough?

yes. you finish w/ your racquet exactly how jeff says ppl do in that video. you're making good contact but you are basically putting on the brakes or using some kind of force to stop the racquet. so not only is it not good for you it also not pretty.

 

[sureshs]

Whooaaah! When did you change your opinion? Or am I misremembering things?

I thought you were a defender of the WTA technique for amateur players?

I apologize in advance if I'm confusing you with someone else.

That is because I don't find such big differences in the WTA forehands as others seem to see which make a difference from the club player point of view. I cannot imagine claiming that my FH is closer to Nadal's than Serena's, because it is well below both of them.

 

[mightyrick]

yes. you finish w/ your racquet exactly how jeff says ppl do in that video. you're making good contact but you are basically putting on the brakes or using some kind of force to stop the racquet. so not only is it not good for you it also not pretty.

It looks to me like he's just tightening up the grip and the wrist just before contact which results in that overly tight finish. Said differently, things look loose until just before contact... and that's when he "arms" the swing.

OP, if you'd just keep that wrist loose and allow it to release naturally without forcibly tightening your grip/arm/elbow... I think you'd see a better result.

 

[WildVolley]

That is because I don't find such big differences in the WTA forehands as others seem to see which make a difference from the club player point of view. I cannot imagine claiming that my FH is closer to Nadal's than Serena's, because it is well below both of them.

I don't get it?

Of course it is possible to be much worse than Nadal or Serena yet still have form that is more like Serena than Nadal, for example.

The OP has a fh that is more like Federer's in takeback and transition than Serena's. These are just objective facts based on what his arm and racket are doing during the transition.

 

[sureshs]

By "WTA technique", you basically mean arming the ball, right? ;-)

Yeah that is the kind of opinion I see here in this context. They are not "arming" the ball. I remember all the claims that ATP was pull and WTA was push, and what not.

DP is a little different from Fed, for example. There was someone who actually claimed it was a WTA style FH.

 

[sureshs]

I don't get it?

Of course it is possible to be much worse than Nadal or Serena yet still have form that is more like Serena than Nadal, for example.

The OP has a fh that is more like Federer's in takeback and transition than Serena's. These are just objective facts based on what his arm and racket are doing during the transition.

Fed is not the only ATP player

 

[tdk]

yes. you finish w/ your racquet exactly how jeff says ppl do in that video. you're making good contact but you are basically putting on the brakes or using some kind of force to stop the racquet. so not only is it not good for you it also not pretty.

Hi, thanks for the clarification. I see what you mean. That should not be a big modification to my follow through. Gotto start working on that as soon as I can. Is that what was called the wind shield wiper move?

I think the thing that slows my racket down is that Im quite stiff in my upper body and my shoulders. Not allowing for a relaxed follow through. Also my shoulder injury prevents me from too much rotation while I swing.

 

[tdk]

It looks to me like he's just tightening up the grip and the wrist just before contact which results in that overly tight finish. Said differently, things look loose until just before contact... and that's when he "arms" the swing.

OP, if you'd just keep that wrist loose and allow it to release naturally without forcibly tightening your grip/arm/elbow... I think you'd see a better result.

Hi, thanks for your posting. I think you are onto something here. I can feel how my wrist is not relaxed enough especially at contact and beyond. I need to work on this. I think this is the key to solving the follow through problem. Thanks.

 

[WildVolley]

Fed is not the only ATP player

Huh?

So you deny that there is a difference in forehand technique between the top ten ATP players and the top ten WTA players? I would be willing to bet you a large sum of money that the majority of the men don't take the racket tip back past the line of the shoulders on most rally fhs and that the majority of the WTA players do.

I'm not the only person to have noticed this. Here's a very good video on the differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

Enjoy, and hopefully we haven't derailed the OP's thread.

 

[sureshs]

Huh?

So you deny that there is a difference in forehand technique between the top ten ATP players and the top ten WTA players? I would be willing to bet you a large sum of money that the majority of the men don't take the racket tip back past the line of the shoulders on most rally fhs and that the majority of the WTA players do.

I'm not the only person to have noticed this. Here's a very good video on the differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

Enjoy, and hopefully we haven't derailed the OP's thread.

I agree that the racket tip does not go back behind the shoulder for many ATP players, but that is not as big as you think it is. There are many similarities which overwhelm these differences.

 

[Power Player]

Hi, thanks for your posting. I think you are onto something here. I can feel how my wrist is not relaxed enough especially at contact and beyond. I need to work on this. I think this is the key to solving the follow through problem. Thanks.

To solve a follow through problem, don't think about the follow through.

It is a result of everything before it. People try to force the windshield wiper and rob themselves of free power.

 

[Lukhas]

By "WTA technique", you basically mean arming the ball, right? ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

 

[mightyrick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0uCQBiH2Ko

Yep, that's what I thought. Arming the ball.

 

[WildVolley]

Yep, that's what I thought. Arming the ball.

Actually, the guy in that video claims that men use more arm than the women. He says that women tend to have the huge windup because they feel they lack power and want to have more torso turn.

But I can understand how it could be a matter of interpretation.

 

[sureshs]

Actually, the guy in that video claims that men use more arm than the women.

Wow............

 

[Lukhas]

Wow............

Wow in what way? He's entitled to his opinions, but at least he justifies them and I can understand his logic behind his statements.

 

[sureshs]

Wow in what way? he's entitled to his opinions, but at least he justifies them and I can understand his logic behind his statements.

But someone here was claiming it was the women who muscle the ball.

What I get out of this is not to take any of them seriously.

 

[WildVolley]

Wow............

Again, this is a matter of interpretation. He describes it as the arm being more "independent" from the body on the ATP stroke than the WTA stroke.

Don't take my brief comment as a reason to dismiss the video. It really is worth watching. I think it is the best video this guy has ever done and the video evidence is nicely broken down and described. He superimposes WTA players on top of ATP players so that the differences can be easily determined.

You think that these differences are too subtle for the average rec player, but I'm still convinced that a rec player can gain benefit from studying these type of videos and making changes.

 

[WildVolley]

But someone here was claiming it was the women who muscle the ball.

What I get out of this is not to take any of them seriously.

The way the term is used may be taken out of context. This guy says that women muscle the ball more in terms of using the big shoulder turn to bring the arm around and in terms of not releasing the wrist as early.

Again, it is worth your time to watch it. He defends everything he says with video evidence. I think you'll find it fascinating.

 

[sureshs]

The way the term is used may be taken out of context. This guy says that women muscle the ball more in terms of using the big shoulder turn to bring the arm around and in terms of not releasing the wrist as early.

Again, it is worth your time to watch it. He defends everything he says with video evidence. I think you'll find it fascinating.

Yes I watched the video now. I remember having seen it before.

 

[WildVolley]

Yes I watched the video now. I remember having seen it before.

Do you still think that a rec player can't attempt to adopt the ATP-style moves described in the video?

 

[sureshs]

Do you still think that a rec player can't attempt to adopt the ATP-style moves described in the video?

Opposite - that is what I have done for a long time. I never take/can never take the racket behind my back. That is why I said I was not surprised by OP's video.

 

[WildVolley]

Opposite - that is what I have done for a long time. I never take/can never take the racket behind my back. That is why I said I was not surprised by OP's video.

You're an enigma!:twisted:

You rip on people for advocating the ATP-style play and saying they don't want to hit a WTA-style fh, yet you try to hit an ATP-style forehand?

 

[sureshs]

You're an enigma!:twisted:

You rip on people for advocating the ATP-style play and saying they don't want to hit a WTA-style fh, yet you try to hit an ATP-style forehand?

No no I was saying I did not understand bringing in this WTA issue

 

[Cheetah]

Hi, thanks for the clarification. I see what you mean. That should not be a big modification to my follow through. Gotto start working on that as soon as I can. Is that what was called the wind shield wiper move?

I think the thing that slows my racket down is that Im quite stiff in my upper body and my shoulders. Not allowing for a relaxed follow through. Also my shoulder injury prevents me from too much rotation while I swing.

it's a little different that a ww but depending on the player's style/grip/shot it can accomplish the same thing. I wouldn't worry about ww. Just get your wrist turning in a relaxed way and once that is ingrained in muscle memory it should open up a few avenues you can experiment with like ww etc. But your swing is pretty good already. The ball makes a nice sound. The relaxed wrist is going to give you more rhs so you'll probably have to spend time dealing with that for a while.

 

[WildVolley]

No no I was saying I did not understand bringing in this WTA issue

OK. It was only pertinent to the OP because he noted he's now pointing the racket tip to the side instead of toward the back on his backswing. I think I just noted that's more like the ATP-style hit and might suggest the changes he's noting in his swing.

You're correct at one level that calling it ATP or WTA isn't really relevant. It is just that those are the terms that have been kicked around in the past year or so. The terminology at least is little more understandable than the old "push-pull" taxonomy which never made any sense at all to me.

 

[rkelley]

^^^

Great video.

 

[KenC]

Looks to me like you are almost there, you just need to correct the over-rotation of the shoulders and maybe give more space between you and the ball. It seems like you are over-rotating when you could be stepping in and moving forward instead. Ideally you want to be on the ball of your front foot when you make contact. This will be where you transfer a lot more power.

 

[Nellie]

I think you are decelerating at contact and need to hit through the ball more for better power

 

[tdk]

I think you are decelerating at contact and need to hit through the ball more for better power

Can be. Considering I watched an instructional video of this consept on youtube in the moring and whent out and did this video in the afternoon I did pritty well. For a first timer so to speak. But you are right. I was lacking power. Need to think about how to add some. On the other hand, Im not really worried about power. Being able to add pase to the ball is good for now.

 

[tdk]

^^^

Great video.

Thanks. I was a bit shocked by the result of video. I think for the first time ever my FH looks great. Im not a very good player.

 

[tdk]

To solve a follow through problem, don't think about the follow through.

It is a result of everything before it. People try to force the windshield wiper and rob themselves of free power.

Thanks for your comments. I was actually not thinking about the follow through at all. Just pointing that racket to the side and giving the ball some spinn. A FH stroke is very complex.

 

[tdk]

it's a little different that a ww but depending on the player's style/grip/shot it can accomplish the same thing. I wouldn't worry about ww. Just get your wrist turning in a relaxed way and once that is ingrained in muscle memory it should open up a few avenues you can experiment with like ww etc. But your swing is pretty good already. The ball makes a nice sound. The relaxed wrist is going to give you more rhs so you'll probably have to spend time dealing with that for a while.

Thanks, yes, relaxing my wrist is something Ill work on next time. What is "rhs"?

 

[WildVolley]

Thanks, yes, relaxing my wrist is something Ill work on next time. What is "rhs"?

Mostly likely an abbreviation for racket head speed.

 

[tdk]

Looks to me like you are almost there, you just need to correct the over-rotation of the shoulders and maybe give more space between you and the ball. It seems like you are over-rotating when you could be stepping in and moving forward instead. Ideally you want to be on the ball of your front foot when you make contact. This will be where you transfer a lot more power.

I have a very bad right shoulder. Over rotating my shoulders is something Ive started to do to prevent too much 3D rotational movement in my shoulder. As a matter of fact I think I might have wrecked something inside my shoulder agan....

I used to have a very typical old school type FH. I allways stepped through on my left foot. Now I have started to use also an open stance and step onto my left foot as a strike the ball.

 

[tdk]

Mostly likely an abbreviation for racket head speed.

Thanks, that makes sence. But that really did not make such a big impact on my timing. Probably the lag delayed the swing just the right ammount for perfect ball contact.

 

[5263]

This lag you discuss seems to be what some call stalking and some call a unit
turn now (even though it is very different than classic unit turn).

Actually sounds like you changed from a Classic Unit turn to the modern version.
Imo you would benefit even more if you looked to keep the left hand on the
racket a bit longer. It tends to set the racket even better and more consistently
for many players.
Very nice overall though!

 

[rkelley]

Hi, have been more or less away for 3y due to a shoulder injury. More so, Ive been stuck on what seens a terminally intermediate level. However, last week I stumbled onto a video on youtube explaining the secrets behind the so called FH-Lag. It showed me a move that I had not been aware of before. When I went out on court and gave it a try I was immediatly rewarded with excellent ground strokes. Suddenly I was able to put spinn on the ball and controll it like never before. Solid, hard and consistant FH's, what more can you aske for.

Here is the video: http://youtu.be/YH_0_ua1-VA

For anyone not aware of the move let me try to explain it. Note Im not a pro, just an entusiastic 50y old tennis player so maybe Im explaining and/or doing it all wrong. Its best spotted in my starting shot from clip 2.

Insted of pointing the racket 180deg away from the oncomming ball and swing it from there Im pointing it 90deg to the side, at the camera. Its too simple to be true. For me there was nothing more to it. Just angling the racket to the side insted of to the back. As I start to swing my arm at the ball the racket head remains pritty much in the same place. So my arm is swinging at the ball but my racket head "lags" behind. As I contact the ball my racket head has caught up with the rest of the hand and after I hit the ball the racket will swing through and past my arm. We are talking about racket head accelleration and speed. This requires a loose wrist.

I have been using the same technique on my BH and my serve without understanding what I was doing or that it could be used for my FH as well. Well, better late than never.

Thats all for this time. Hope to hear some comments from players out there that have some input on this topic. And give me pointers on how to go from here.

Thanks, Tom

It looks nice. I think you have the idea. Your off balance a little but I'm guessing you'll fix that as you get used to the stroke. The biggest area for improvement I see is to loosen up your arm and wrist a bit during the swing. Your prep looks good, but it looks like you tense up your arm and especially your wrist and so you don't get the most whip out of the racquet.

One thing I like to do is practice a bit with less pace. Practice getting set-up nicely (like you're doing) while keeping your wrist and arm relaxed and letting the power come from legs and core. Even at the slower pace you should feel the racquet whip into and over the ball. With minimal effort you should be able to get great spin and pace.

As you hit harder it's really kind of amazing how much pace and spin you can generate if you maintain that form. The video about ATP and WTA fhs has some great stuff in it too.