Getting humbled in USTA

[Legend of Borg]

can somebody post a video of a legit pusher?

like how does a pusher look like when he plays?

i don't think I've ever played against one.

Most of my opponents hit fairly hard or just tap over the ball and the point is over.

 

[navigator]

thats not the correct quote

I know. Apparently you missed the "Adapting to tennis" part that preceded the quote...

 

[6shotsdown]

You sound a lot like me (although my serve ebbs and flows). I think the key is what details you have left out:

* You have a good serve-do you mean hard, consistent, or both? IMO, a lot of people equate "hard" with "good" and that's hardly the case. If you can hit the crap out of the ball but DF a lot or lose your serve a lot you are at a significant disadvantage and will lose most if not all matches

* You say you hit hard, but again are you consistent? Can you hit hard and consistently off both sides? A lot of people have big forehands but miss a ton and also have AWFUL backhands that can be exposed be competant players

IMO, you can beat moonballers and pushers consistently with what I envision your style of play to be IF:

* Your serve is reliable
* You demonstrate patience
* You can develop spin on your groundstrokes-in particular your forehand

By good serve I mean decent pace, variety and consistency.
By hitting hard I just mean that I don't just block back and/or slice everything.
Patience is probably my biggest issue in these types of matches.

This thread has been interesting and kind of strange. It's not so much that I am frustrated about losing to these kinds of players (I am a little), it's more that I wonder why people are content to play this way. Seems boring to me. To each their own I guess.

 

[beernutz]

can somebody post a video of a legit pusher?

like how does a pusher look like when he plays?

i don't think I've ever played against one.

Most of my opponents hit fairly hard or just tap over the ball and the point is over.

I don't want to insult the shirtless guy in this video because he seems to be a very consistent player with good defensive skills. That said I think he meets the general criteria of a pusher, albeit one who probably plays at a higher level than most do, by generally hitting paceless shots back to the center of the court. FWIW, I think he looks more like a 4.0 rather than a 4.5 level player but it is hard to say from just watching video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w

 

[navigator]

It's not so much that I am frustrated about losing to these kinds of players (I am a little), it's more that I wonder why people are content to play this way. Seems boring to me. To each their own I guess.

"To each their own." I think that's the key.

There are a lot of folks who play tennis not so much because they enjoy "playing," but rather they enjoy "having played." That is, they like winning and like that they're tired afterward, but the actual act of running down and hitting tennis balls is not that appealing to them (unless there's a victory at the other end).

Other folks simply inherently enjoy the act of running around and hitting the ball. I happen to fall into this camp which I why I enjoy spending two hours with a ball machine, simply chasing balls and returning them. A lot of folks hate that, which is fine. To each their own, as you say.

To be clear, I'm not putting you in one camp or the other - I don't know you. I'm just pointing out that people play tennis - and do all sorts of other things in life - for different reasons and derive pleasure out of different aspects of the game.

Also, to *some* extent size probably has an influence on one's game. I'm small - 5'8", 165 lbs - so while it's not impossible for me to be a successful power player or serve-and-volleyer... the physics of tennis renders it unlikely, or at least considerably more difficult. Counterpunching, as defined above, is going to be a more natural strategy for me, personally.

 

[navigator]

I don't want to insult the shirtless guy in this video because he seems to be a very consistent player with good defensive skills. That said I think he meets the general criteria of a pusher, albeit one who probably plays at a higher level than most do, by generally hitting paceless shots back to the center of the court. FWIW, I think he looks more like a 4.0 rather than a 4.5 level player but it is hard to say from just watching video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w

I agree with you - archetypal 4.0-ish pusher (and not meant in the pejorative sense) - a consistent retriever. Not a counterpuncher (as I now know the definition) in my view.

 

[NTRPolice]

Every loser wants to walk away from the court still thinking he's the better tennis player.

hahahah isnt that right on the money.

I love it when people pretend like they were "dumping" when you know they were trying hard to win.

 

[user92626]

To OP and Evryone like him,

A very good way to see and feel and understand how a pusher enjoys his style is that YOU play a match for money, preferably an amount matter to you.

With money on the line I bet that your "free hitting style" suddenly loses all the appeal and priority, and winning any way you can becomes the highest priority. You WILL open your eyes and see all the appeal of the so called pushing style.

 

[jdubbs]

I was frustrated with pushers coming back to tennis after a long layoff. I played 4.0 thinking it was going to be some decent hitters, and it was a lot of dinkers, dropshotters and lobbers.
I lost at first. A lot. For about a year or so. Tournaments, leagues, friendlies.

So I went to my local pro and asked him to give me those exact shots. Over and over and over again. I asked him to give me 50 drop shots in a row, to lob me mercilessly, to hit the ball right down the middle with light pace. I worked on not double faulting anymore, spinning in a serve instead of a huge, but inconsistent, second serve.

It worked. Guys I had lost to previously I beat in straights, easily. One guy who crushed me previously smashed his racket on the ground, breaking it, because he was so mad.

I still play them sometimes, but now I mostly play 4.5 or above when I can. It's a rite of passage, look at it like a challenge.

 

[Legend of Borg]

Ye pushers are prty good.

I think I secretly might be a pusher....

 

[r2473]

can somebody post a video of a legit pusher?

like how does a pusher look like when he plays?

i don't think I've ever played against one.

Most of my opponents hit fairly hard or just tap over the ball and the point is over.

This is a pic of a TW poster playing a pusher.

It's also a pic of a TW poster playing a league match where his opponent is "obviously" cheating him on every call

 

[tennis_ocd]

I don't want to insult the shirtless guy in this video because he seems to be a very consistent player with good defensive skills. That said I think he meets the general criteria of a pusher, albeit one who probably plays at a higher level than most do, by generally hitting paceless shots back to the center of the court. FWIW, I think he looks more like a 4.0 rather than a 4.5 level player but it is hard to say from just watching video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w

That is both beautiful and painful to watch. Stopped at 2:40 but blue shirt guy was much more patient than I'd ever be. This is both the nightmare and yet fun if in the mindset for longggg points. Most "pushers" I play at least tend to move me side to side; this guy didn't even bother with that. Even in the few minutes blue shirt tries all the right things - approach, volly, OH... then gets lobbed moves back and resets. Good stuff.

 

[the green god]

They are better than you. Next time maybe you should ask him nicely not to lob you, aim for the lines, and hit only to your forehand.

 

[athiker]

I've been playing for a number of years now but this is my first season playing in a USTA (4.0) league. I'm 29 and I hit the ball pretty hard and have a good serve but I am getting my face smashed in by moon ballers and pushers.

I guess I just need to calm down and be patient but I am having a hard time accepting that this style of play is actually fun or challenging for people. I guess if they win they don't care. But I had this guy yesterday who just painted the line with lobs on almost every shot then he started hitting drop serves. I wonder why he even picks up a racket?

Thanks for reading my rant.

I've probably seen 50 threads like this on talk tennis about "pushers" and they all go the same way. Youngish hard hitter can't understand why opponent won't play the game the way he likes. Your particular post was fine, at least you left out the "I know I am a better player than him even though I lost." comment.... until the line about why they even pick up a racket. That's starts the path of comments down hill, but I'm sure they would've headed that way anyway. Lot's of good, familiar truthful comments mixed in along the way.

Not much new to add, except they pick up a racquet to compete...and sometimes they compete very well.

I would say try to enjoy the puzzle of trying to figure out how to beat them.

 

[BMcFarlan]

You have to play and win against all types. If someone beat you with drop shots and lobs, they defeated you fair and square.

It is up to you to learn to beat them. Every one of us has lost to a player we consider to have inferior technique and that is part of the game. Some days tennis is a PIA and some days it is fantastic. Most days are somewhere in the middle. All you can do is try to take a realistic look at your game, tighten it up a bit, and get on to the next match.

Exactly. And the main problem below the 5.0 range is that players often only have "their game", rather than a few other options to fall back on. If you're a serve and volley player and you find yourself playing a guy with the best return pass you've ever seen continuing to play "your game" won't do you any favors. I've found myself playing my game and down 4-5 and I decide to change it up. Chip some returns, kick some serves slower and wider, etc. It can bring some of the control back to your side of the court because all of a sudden the person across the court is now having to adjust. And that's a great place to sneak a break in and level things out.

For pushers my first go-to is to chip back, don't give them a lot of power to borrow, and wait for your opportunity. If you're a power player then pull them into net and wait for a chance to pass. It'll come.

 

[Z-Man]

This is just the way I view it - others may not agree:

A pusher has no weapons (other than consistency, if you consider that a weapon). Therefore a pusher cannot hurt you even if you play a weak shot, as he will not be able to take advantage of it. A pusher can only win based on the errors of his opponent, however, since the pusher rarely makes mistakes himself, and is typically also a good retriever, this is often a winning strategy.

A counterpuncher has weapons, but also good consistency, and good patience. A counterpuncher will be passive while waiting for the right opportunity to strike, but then will take advantage of that opportunity when presented. The counterpuncher aims to neutralize the opponent's weapons with his consistency and patience, and then pounce when the time is right - when the opponent is out of position, or the opponent plays a weak ball. The counterpuncher is often also skilled at using the opponent's own pace against him.

So basically a counterpuncher has many of the skills of a pusher, but also has weapons which he is patient in using. A counterpuncher can beat you, whereas a pusher relies on you beating yourself.

That's good, but I'd fine tune it with two points:

1) Pushers are often able to keep the ball deep and move the ball around to prevent their opponent from attacking. Depth and placement are both weapons. Patience is another weapon. A better player can answer depth and placement will depth, placement, pace, and spin. Then you put the ball away when the pusher is out of position or he coughs up a short ball.

2) The term counter-puncher comes from boxing, which is a lot like tennis. Just like a boxer makes himself vulnerable by throwing a punch, an attacking tennis player puts himself at a disadvantage if his attack isn't successful. So it's not just that a counter-puncher takes advantage of the short ball or the unforced error. Rather, they take advantage of the vulnerability one must expose while attacking. There is a subtle difference that all counter punchers instinctively understand.

 

[heninfan99]

...you can request being put down to 3.5 for more competitive matches.

 

[CurrenFan]

I've been running for a number of years but this is my first time entering any organized 5K races. I run pretty fast but after sprinting for the first kilometer I have to stop and throw up and then sometimes I get disoriented and go the wrong way or take a wrong turn, and I'm getting beat by all these slow joggers and even race walkers.

I guess I just need to calm down and be patient but I am having a hard time accepting that this style of running 5k races is actually fun or challenging for people. I guess if they finish with a good time for them they don't care. But I had this lady yesterday beat me to the finish line whle walking and pushing her baby in a stroller the whole race and I wonder why she even puts on her athletic shoes?

This is a really dumb and obnoxious analogy, as playing a pusher is not at all comparable to a sprinter entering a 5k race.

If the pusher that the OP is complaining about is at all similar to the shirtless pusher in the YouTube link someone posted above, I can readily sympathize with the OP. That guy is so lackadaisical in his shots that I question what's the point - he doesn't seem to be getting any satisfaction out of his half-hearted swings at the ball. It would bug me to have to deal with someone who apparently hardly cares that he's even playing the game.

I too don't like playing someone who has what I consider to be an annoying game, such as a moonballer or a slice-drop-and-dinker. Some of those people are doing it in part to be obnoxious - they know it is non-conventional and enjoy the fact that it bothers opponents and gets under their skin. The secret is to avoid letting them control the match - play your strengths and try to take them out their game so they're reacting to you instead of dictating the play. Start repeatedly hitting drop shots back at them and that may get under their skin.

 

[tennis_ocd]

I too don't like playing someone who has what I consider to be an annoying game, such as a moonballer or a slice-drop-and-dinker. Some of those people are doing it in part to be obnoxious -

As a 5K runner pacing himself to the finish line. Boring after the first 100 meters.

 

[dcdoorknob]

This is a really dumb and obnoxious analogy, as playing a pusher is not at all comparable to a sprinter entering a 5k race.

Eh no analogy is perfect, but the sprinter in a 5k is trying to run at a pace that he can not run at consistantly through the entire required distance. Likewise, if the OP is losing to pushers, it is likely because he is going for shots he can't make consistently throughout the match. In both cases, some patience and maybe even intelligence is required a bit beyond just run fast/hit hard.

As for obnoxious, To me the people who whine because their opponents don't play the way they want them to are the most obnoxious people of all.

 

[navigator]

Eh no analogy is perfect, but the sprinter in a 5k is trying to run at a pace that he can not run at consistantly through the entire required distance. Likewise, if the OP is losing to pushers, it is likely because he is going for shots he can't make consistently throughout the match. In both cases, some patience and maybe even intelligence is required a bit beyond just run fast/hit hard.

As for obnoxious, To me the people who whine because their opponents don't play the way they want them to are the most obnoxious people of all.

I think your analogy is spot on... but reasonable people can disagree... hence this forum.

 

[F L O B B E R]

"I too don't like playing someone who has what I consider to be an annoying game, such as a moonballer or a slice-drop-and-dinker. Some of those people are doing it in part to be obnoxious - they know it is non-conventional and enjoy the fact that it bothers opponents and gets under their skin."

I ran into a guy like the one in the video a few years back. I resigned myself to a very long match from the beginning but I very quickly lost my patience playing someone who it appeared was not there to take pleasure from playing the game of tennis, but rather from ******* off his opponent.

If I'm playing someone where it's obvious that style is all they are capable of, then more power to them. But when the opponent obviously has the ability to play a more conventional style (when I would hit an approach and come to the net he suddenly had the ability to hit solid groundies and passed me frequently, only to revert to the bloopy moonbally stuff as soon as I was back on the baseline) - well this just ticked me off and I decided this was NOT how I wanted to spend my afternoon. The energy and time needed to win a match like that is NOT worth the effort - if the W means that much to the guy, then he can have it. My tennis time is precious and I'm not gonna waste it playing someone like that.

If that makes me a tennis snob, then guilty as charged.

 

[mikeler]

"I too don't like playing someone who has what I consider to be an annoying game, such as a moonballer or a slice-drop-and-dinker. Some of those people are doing it in part to be obnoxious - they know it is non-conventional and enjoy the fact that it bothers opponents and gets under their skin."

I ran into a guy like the one in the video a few years back. I resigned myself to a very long match from the beginning but I very quickly lost my patience playing someone who it appeared was not there to take pleasure from playing the game of tennis, but rather from ******* off his opponent.

If I'm playing someone where it's obvious that style is all they are capable of, then more power to them. But when the opponent obviously has the ability to play a more conventional style (when I would hit an approach and come to the net he suddenly had the ability to hit solid groundies and passed me frequently, only to revert to the bloopy moonbally stuff as soon as I was back on the baseline) - well this just ticked me off and I decided this was NOT how I wanted to spend my afternoon. The energy and time needed to win a match like that is NOT worth the effort - if the W means that much to the guy, then he can have it. My tennis time is precious and I'm not gonna waste it playing someone like that.

If that makes me a tennis snob, then guilty as charged.

Have we played? :twisted:

 

[awjack]

f

 

[schmke]

There are different reasons people play tennis.

Some play to compete, and for them it is all about winning. For these people, it doesn't matter about style of play or winners or how well your strokes look.

Others play to just have fun and get some exercise. For these, winning isn't the object but they want to have an enjoyable time. They also may not care about how well one's strokes look, but they don't want to be annoyed or have to play an unfamiliar style of game to just win points.

Both are perfectly fine positions to take. But if you are playing in tournaments or some competitive league, you are likely to run into the former and some of those will be pushers or dinkers or whatever the case may be. And if that is successful for them, more power to them.

 

[anubis]

Playing aggressively is the key to winning. If your shot tolerance is too small (meaning, your shot requirements for how the incoming ball behaves in order to hit the ball aggressively), then it's very easy to lose to a pusher/junkballer. If you're waiting for that perfect shot before you'll hit an aggressive ball, then you'll lose more often than not.

In order to beat pushers/junkballers, you have to loosen your requirements of what kind of shot you're looking for in order to attack. you have to be able to be aggressive with less.

Pushers absolutely love it when you play defensively. Sure, they're not giving you much to work with, but if most of your shots are in fact defensive in nature, then you're playing the same game they are - and they're simply better at it.

In short, learn how to be aggressive with virtually any ball that's hit to you. The nice thing about this tactic is that it works against everyone - not just pushers.

 

[TennisCJC]

Eh no analogy is perfect, but the sprinter in a 5k is trying to run at a pace that he can not run at consistantly through the entire required distance. Likewise, if the OP is losing to pushers, it is likely because he is going for shots he can't make consistently throughout the match. In both cases, some patience and maybe even intelligence is required a bit beyond just run fast/hit hard.

As for obnoxious, To me the people who whine because their opponents don't play the way they want them to are the most obnoxious people of all.

I thought your analogy was excellent too.

It says face the truth and accept responsibility for your performance rather than blaming the result on your opponents style.

 

[CurrenFan]

Eh no analogy is perfect, but the sprinter in a 5k is trying to run at a pace that he can not run at consistantly through the entire required distance. Likewise, if the OP is losing to pushers, it is likely because he is going for shots he can't make consistently throughout the match. In both cases, some patience and maybe even intelligence is required a bit beyond just run fast/hit hard.

As for obnoxious, To me the people who whine because their opponents don't play the way they want them to are the most obnoxious people of all.

Ok, sprinting and distance running are two totally different sports with nothing in common in terms of required attributes of the participants beyond certain minimum levels of fitness and the fact that they go from Point A to Point B. Unless the sprinter was also the sort of athlete who draws inapposite analogies on internet forums, he is very well going to know and understand perfectly well that a 5k is not a 100m race, that they require vastly different strategies, preparation and raw abilities, and he would never enter a distance race thinking he could run it like a sprint, nor would he be astonished if other runners treated a distance event in a different fashion than a sprint.

A distance runner running a distance race to some extent conservatively, at least compared to shorter events, is not something uncommon, unusual or annoying - it is exactly what almost every runner in the race will be doing. All runners, unless they are Olympian-class runners whose average speed will seem like a sprint to amateurs, will need to pace themselves if they want to finish without having to stop.

Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of adults have heard the Tortoise and the Hare fable and are not going to be astonished by its lesson as your dull-witted imaginary sprinter is.

In contrast, in tennis, if one is smart, patient and skilled enough, one can defeat the tactics of pusher without having to make radical changes to one's game. A pusher is still a tennis player, same as a serve-and-volleyer and they're both playing the same sport. A distance runner is not a sprinter and a sprinter is not a distance runner.

Otherwise your analogy is spot-on brilliant.

 

[KHSOLO]

Maybe he is better at playing his style than you playing yours

 

[JRstriker12]

As a new player (playing about 2-3 months), I am taking special interest in the etiquette. To date, I have enjoyed the players at the club - most of them anyway.

Where is the unwritten guide to follow so I don't end up being the subject of threads like this?

The amount of conflicting advice I have received in person in astounding. Hit at the net player in doubles anytime, only in matches etc., when in doubt call it out, and so on, you have to hit hard grounders - no lobs, if you aren't going for winners, you are a pusher...

What is one to conclude?

If I had a dollar for every pusher thread on TW, I'd be a very rich man.

I wouldn't worry about being a subject of some stupid thread.

As a new player I'd say:

1. Learn the code and the rules and you won't have to worry about ruffling feathers over etiquette in general.

2. Call your lines honestly, and if there's even a slight shadow of a doubt, call it in and give your opponent the benefit of a doubt. Hopefully your opponent will give you the same consideration.

3. Play to the best of your ability and don't worry of someone else doesn't like your style or the way you play.

4. Some people are jerks, you will run into a few of them on court and no matter what you do they will act a fool. Do your best to follow 1, 2, and 3 and try to ignore the fact that they are jerks.

 

[austintennis2005]

i think its more about the LEVEL of play than the STYLE of play...eg... 99.9% of the time a 5.0 'pusher' will beat a 4.0 'big hitter' and by the same token a 5.0 'big hitter' will 99.9% of the time beat a 4.0 'pusher'

 

[Aurellian]

That is both beautiful and painful to watch. Stopped at 2:40 but blue shirt guy was much more patient than I'd ever be. This is both the nightmare and yet fun if in the mindset for longggg points. Most "pushers" I play at least tend to move me side to side; this guy didn't even bother with that. Even in the few minutes blue shirt tries all the right things - approach, volly, OH... then gets lobbed moves back and resets. Good stuff.

I know both of these fellas. To the little guy's credit--he is about 5'6 140 pounds-he said he was not aware he was being filmed and did not give full effort.

The little guy gives me lessons sometimes as I drop by Baksin at 0600 before work three days a week. I like him but I fear he is trying to turn me into a pusher too when my mentality is that of a big hitting counterpuncher.

The little guy is very very fast I should add...a little Thai guy who tires very difficultly.

 

[coloskier]

There is one thing that I do find always happens to pushers. If they win, and get bumped up to the next level, they are the first ones to complain because they know their game can only carry them so far. Most pushers get destroyed once they get bumped up to the 4.5 level, and will do everything in their power to stay at 4.0, instead of improving their game so they can move up. With pushers it is all about the win, and not about how they win. A lot of people are ok with that. For me I call it cowardice.

 

[ForLoveOfTheGame]

Maybe try taking the ball on the rise? Cut them off with more aggressive angles. In high school I played against some ridiculously consistent girls who lobbed so high it bounced close to the baseline. Nothing was more frustrating than trying to hit overheads again and again.

 

[Sakkijarvi]

Ah, internet geeks being geeks. Nothing new.

Look, OP, my advice is remember to enjoy being 29. It is a wonderful time in life, young enough to play all your favorite recreational sports, young kids that don't get traffic tickets -- and you prolly don't wake up with multiple parts barking at you with pain and stiffness.

And ignore any dweeb with 1000+ posts. They are not tennis players likely -- they are internet trolls that pose as tennis players LOL.