How do I beat this crafty old dude?

T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Part II - el domingo

While wandering the grounds around Massu academy, I had also found a younger teaching pro and exchanged contact info.

He texted me Saturday evening saying he had found a court Sunday morning. Given my interesting encounter on Saturday, I thought I’d better look up this pro’s tennis resume in advance so that I’d be more prepared for what level to expect.

This guy was 30 years old, and ranked as high as #15 in Venezuela.

Conditions on Sunday at a different club in the morning morning were cooler, and red clay court was not as dry, making it play a little slower and much easier to move and cover the court.

He didn’t speak any English. He already understood from the day before that I wanted to play a match. He asked me if I wanted to change ends, pointing out that the sun was a bit uncomfortable on one end. I accepted this offer to get a handicap of playing only from the non sun side. After all, he was from a place near the equator, and I’m from an always-cloudy place at 47 deg latitude.

This time, in the cooler conditions with slower court, I decided to grab my longer racquet for more power. I made some gear accessories changes. And not having to deal with the sun, I ditched my widebrim hat, which I always play much worse in. I was crisp and clean and confident in warm-up. He started to get worried, “tengo miedo” he jokes as we are about to start.

But we start the match on my serve, and first point, he rips a topspin DTL 1hb winner when I test his backhand. “Tengo miedo”, I reply.

This guy had super clean strokes of someone who had been training since age 5. His 1hb seemed to be his more confident side. He never seemed to make an error off that wing. His fh was good too, but not quite world class like my opponent the day before. He seems to shade a bit to his right on returns like he wants to hit the bh. He had an amazing bh slice that he could control the depth well, and hit great drops. He also had great anticipation, seeming like he could always reach my drop shots with ease.

I started the match playing with a lot of confidence, but he was just a little bit better. He held serve to open, and he came up with the goods to break me to put me in an 0-2 hole.

But I continued playing well. I was particular strong finishing with crisp volleys at net. I broke back and held to get back to 2-2.

He kept playing at a strong level, and my errors started to creep in. I got broken to go down 2-4, then held to put me in a 2-5 hole.

I played a solid game on serve to get back to 3-5. Then I called for a water break. We hadn’t been changing ends, so I needed to break his momentum. The 90 second water break worked like a charm. He came out cold, I took advantage to break back. With me about to serve at 4-5, he declared the next game was “peligroso.”

He recovered a bit but continued my momentum and was feeling confident. I held, and then broke to go up 6-5.

I made the mistake of taking a water sip instead of going straight to serve it out. I got to set point, but choked a bh slice approach into the net. Got broken to make it a 6-6 tie, and our court hour was up.

It was one of the strongest sets of tennis I’d played against a quality opponent. Felt good. More importantly, I felt better about my chances going into Monday morning’s revancha against crafty old dude…
 
TTMR

TTMR

Hall of Fame
travlerajm said:
In Santiago this weekend. I was able to line up a Saturday afternoon 2pm match with a teaching pro by showing up in the morning at Nicolas Massu’s academy and asking around.

The teaching pro was older dude, mid 50s, wearing long sleeve poly shirt and cap like most do in sunny places like this. He was finishing up a serve lesson with an 8-year-old girl, and chatting with the hot mom afterward.
Doesn’t speak a lick of English, just mumbly fast Chilean Spanish. We warm up with some mini. Than some groundies. Some volleys. He’s curious about my racquet with heavy tape all over it. He asks me what I want to do. I tell him I just want to play a match. “A set? Ok let’s do it.” He seems excited. “You serve.”

They had watered the red clay court before my session. But in the dry desert mountain air, the court was already getting dry and powdery, with poor traction, by the time we start.

We started playing points. I was playing pretty conservatively. Just trying to make balls. Get it to his 1hb. It seemed to be working. I had a mobility advantage and could reach more balls. I didn’t serve well, but was solid off the ground and held serve to open.

After we cross to other side, he says that he really likes to play tennis. He doesn’t like to watch on tv.

I kept playing my conservative counter-punchy style, still working well, and broke to go up 2-0. The next game up 15-love, he hit a crosscourt sharp angle 1hb near the sideline. I inspected mark, couldn’t tell, and gave him the benefit of the doubt on the call. He thought his shot was out and came across net to check the mark. He pointed to the mark. I said yeah I think that’s it. But I can’t see any space so it’s his point. In my experience, teaching pros are usually very generous with calls when winning, but rarely when losing, so this was unusual.

But then I tossed in 2 double faults, and lost the game. I broke again to go up 3-1, but he was starting to improve and dictate better with his forehand. The next game, his fh starting landing in the corners, and he broke my serve again. I was still up 3-2, I realized that this guy might be better than I initially thought, and I might have a tough match on my hands, and I wasn’t just going to roll this old guy.

He was slicing most of his bh, but pretty good at placing his slice and using it to move the ball around. Earlier he had been attempting bh drop shots, but missing some, and I successfully reached other and win the point.

The next game, he started getting more pro-active about running around his bh. He was hitting solid forehands to the corners and making me play D. I started stabbing deep defensive lobs in the air. At first these seemed to work well to extend the point. But then he starts stepping in and taking my defensive high balls out of the air with swinging fh volleys. He made a winner on one. Then another. I realized I had to respect his swinging volley was solid. He held to get to 3-3.

I’m thinking, ok, he’s better than I thought. But he’s older than me. I’m going to have to play well, but if I buckle down I should still be able to pull this one out.

Next game, I start rolling loopy high balls crosscourt to his bh. He runs around one and hits an inside-out loopy deep ball. I decide to back up and reply with a sky ball bh lob 80 feet high. My sky ball was going to land in the service line. I see he’s set up to take the sky ball out of the air. I’m thinking that’s pretty risky, but his overhead ugly and bloops short crosscourt angle where I have no chance to reach it. He also gets a lucky net cord, and he breaks me to go up 4-3. He’s got momentum, but that game seemed lucky.

Next game, his forehand seems to go up another level. He spanks winners to the corner and runs me ragged. Any ball I leave in the middle without enough on it he takes control of the point. I try positioning deep to return. That doesn’t work — just gives him too much time to run around the bh. I try returning from inside baseline. That works a couple points, but then he blows an ace by me. He goes up 5-3. This is a little deflating. I’m starting to think to myself that his forehand is practically pro caliber. Am I imagining it? Part of problem is that my conservative game plan was based on assumption that I was playing someone lower level than me. It was clear I had to ditch it and play a little more aggressively.

I go to my back and add an accessory, something to try and turn the momentum. I play a solid game on my serve. I hold to get back to 4-5.

But his forehand continues to grow in strength and accuracy. And now his slice bh seems crisper and more confident than before. He serves it out to win the set 6-4. I say let’s keep playing. I wasn’t playing that badly, but he outplayed me. I lost those next two games too - had game point on my serve, but then couldn’t execute my first serve and he spanked a couple fh return winners. Part of the problem was the court surface was super slippery and hard to play defense on, so with him having the more offensive game style, it was hard to stay in the rallies.

Afterward, I’m thinking, this guy must have been playing ITF level when he was younger. I ask him. He says, “I played big tournaments, and small tournaments.”

“Big tournaments, I played Roland Garros, Hamburg.”

What was your best ranking? “300”

In singles? “Yes”

I’d been punked.

He seemed very satisfied with his comeback victory. He said that he had played well, and that he just needed a few games to get grooved again.

I have a rematch scheduled for Monday morning. I probably don’t have much chance, but if I can expose his movement and 1hb, and if I can serve better, there is hope.

Any suggestions on how to beat a old dude with pro caliber strokes?
Click to expand...
Pretty simple. From now on you only play this guy on indoor hard. (Or carpet, depending upon availability. Can always lay a temp carpet down in a pinch)

Good luck.
 
Shroud

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
travlerajm said:
In Santiago this weekend. I was able to line up a Saturday afternoon 2pm match with a teaching pro by showing up in the morning at Nicolas Massu’s academy and asking around.

The teaching pro was older dude, mid 50s, wearing long sleeve poly shirt and cap like most do in sunny places like this. He was finishing up a serve lesson with an 8-year-old girl, and chatting with the hot mom afterward.
Doesn’t speak a lick of English, just mumbly fast Chilean Spanish. We warm up with some mini. Than some groundies. Some volleys. He’s curious about my racquet with heavy tape all over it. He asks me what I want to do. I tell him I just want to play a match. “A set? Ok let’s do it.” He seems excited. “You serve.”

They had watered the red clay court before my session. But in the dry desert mountain air, the court was already getting dry and powdery, with poor traction, by the time we start.

We started playing points. I was playing pretty conservatively. Just trying to make balls. Get it to his 1hb. It seemed to be working. I had a mobility advantage and could reach more balls. I didn’t serve well, but was solid off the ground and held serve to open.

After we cross to other side, he says that he really likes to play tennis. He doesn’t like to watch on tv.

I kept playing my conservative counter-punchy style, still working well, and broke to go up 2-0. The next game up 15-love, he hit a crosscourt sharp angle 1hb near the sideline. I inspected mark, couldn’t tell, and gave him the benefit of the doubt on the call. He thought his shot was out and came across net to check the mark. He pointed to the mark. I said yeah I think that’s it. But I can’t see any space so it’s his point. In my experience, teaching pros are usually very generous with calls when winning, but rarely when losing, so this was unusual.

But then I tossed in 2 double faults, and lost the game. I broke again to go up 3-1, but he was starting to improve and dictate better with his forehand. The next game, his fh starting landing in the corners, and he broke my serve again. I was still up 3-2, I realized that this guy might be better than I initially thought, and I might have a tough match on my hands, and I wasn’t just going to roll this old guy.

He was slicing most of his bh, but pretty good at placing his slice and using it to move the ball around. Earlier he had been attempting bh drop shots, but missing some, and I successfully reached other and win the point.

The next game, he started getting more pro-active about running around his bh. He was hitting solid forehands to the corners and making me play D. I started stabbing deep defensive lobs in the air. At first these seemed to work well to extend the point. But then he starts stepping in and taking my defensive high balls out of the air with swinging fh volleys. He made a winner on one. Then another. I realized I had to respect his swinging volley was solid. He held to get to 3-3.

I’m thinking, ok, he’s better than I thought. But he’s older than me. I’m going to have to play well, but if I buckle down I should still be able to pull this one out.

Next game, I start rolling loopy high balls crosscourt to his bh. He runs around one and hits an inside-out loopy deep ball. I decide to back up and reply with a sky ball bh lob 80 feet high. My sky ball was going to land in the service line. I see he’s set up to take the sky ball out of the air. I’m thinking that’s pretty risky, but his overhead ugly and bloops short crosscourt angle where I have no chance to reach it. He also gets a lucky net cord, and he breaks me to go up 4-3. He’s got momentum, but that game seemed lucky.

Next game, his forehand seems to go up another level. He spanks winners to the corner and runs me ragged. Any ball I leave in the middle without enough on it he takes control of the point. I try positioning deep to return. That doesn’t work — just gives him too much time to run around the bh. I try returning from inside baseline. That works a couple points, but then he blows an ace by me. He goes up 5-3. This is a little deflating. I’m starting to think to myself that his forehand is practically pro caliber. Am I imagining it? Part of problem is that my conservative game plan was based on assumption that I was playing someone lower level than me. It was clear I had to ditch it and play a little more aggressively.

I go to my back and add an accessory, something to try and turn the momentum. I play a solid game on my serve. I hold to get back to 4-5.

But his forehand continues to grow in strength and accuracy. And now his slice bh seems crisper and more confident than before. He serves it out to win the set 6-4. I say let’s keep playing. I wasn’t playing that badly, but he outplayed me. I lost those next two games too - had game point on my serve, but then couldn’t execute my first serve and he spanked a couple fh return winners. Part of the problem was the court surface was super slippery and hard to play defense on, so with him having the more offensive game style, it was hard to stay in the rallies.

Afterward, I’m thinking, this guy must have been playing ITF level when he was younger. I ask him. He says, “I played big tournaments, and small tournaments.”

“Big tournaments, I played Roland Garros, Hamburg.”

What was your best ranking? “300”

In singles? “Yes”

I’d been punked.

He seemed very satisfied with his comeback victory. He said that he had played well, and that he just needed a few games to get grooved again.

I have a rematch scheduled for Monday morning. I probably don’t have much chance, but if I can expose his movement and 1hb, and if I can serve better, there is hope.

Any suggestions on how to beat a old dude with pro caliber strokes?
Click to expand...
Don’t do 2 doubles in the same game.
 
M

mental midget

Hall of Fame
well, my personal opinion...i'm a solid 5.0 player in my 40's, probably go for too much too often but can certainly hang with good players...but if i step on the court with someone who's in decent shape, under 60, and played at ROLAND GARROS, i would absolutely expect to lose. it's just very hard to show guys like that something they haven't seen, better, a million times over. pro caliber repeatable groundies, game awareness...you did good hanging in there. very tall order unless you're very young, fast and consistent.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Part III - La revancha

I showed up early for the 9am Monday morning rematch. Crafty old dude was in the pro shop lounge sipping his pre-match cafecito.

As we arrive on court, he instructs the grounds care person to groom the court extra well because we’re playing a partido. He seems more serious today. he strips off his warmups, and I see that he’s wearing different stuff today. No long sleeve poly teaching shirt today. He looks more like a tournament player, with wrist band and bracelet.

In warm-up, he’s serving stronger than the first day. Nailing first serves. I wore similar gear and same racquet as my Sunday practice match where I played well, except with the sun angle a bit challenging to serve on one side, I went with my widebrim.

We start the match, and he’s already playing at a pretty solid level. This time I respected his forehand more and I was playing well, hitting my spots. I came from 40-15 down to break his opening serve game, then held to go up 2-0. The next game, his backhand heated up and he held. Then I tossed in a bad service game on the worse sun side to get broken at love, now it was 2-2. He punished me with a clean crosscourt fh pass when I dared challenge him with an approach shot to the open court he was leaving on that side.

The level this match from both of us was much higher than the in the first battle.

The next game, on his serve, was a death struggle, going to 7 deuces. I finally was able to wrestle away the momentum and capitalize and break to go up 3-2. Could that be the turning point?
 
Last edited:
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I thought the momentum was turning my way. But I thought wrong. my volleys started to get worse, so I could no longer finish well at net. And staying back wasn’t working because crafty old dude’s game was still heating up.

We exchanged a long moonball rally, which ended with him trying a drop shot. I reached it easily, but muffed the DTL slice bh approach. Then winners started flowing from his racquet. Even his bh. I lost 12 points in row. Went down 3-5.

I ditched the widebrim, and then ditched the longer racquet. Now I felt gud again. I could volley and finish overheads again.

I was able to control the ball again. I moved him around and made him run. Then I started drop shotting relentlessly. He was excellent at anticipating my drops, and he could hit fh winners from ankle height if he reached it. But I finished the game with 2 drop shot winners to break back.

On serve at 4-5. Feeling confident again…
 
Aestheticsaboveallelse

Aestheticsaboveallelse

Legend
mcs1970 said:
This might not necessarily be true. Pros have a lot more wear and tear as well. You can see even most nba players the difference from early 30s to mid 30s is dramatic and most say the mind is willing but their knees don’t cooperate. The physical drop offs in many cases are not just them regressing to that of a normal rec adult but much worse.

Trav keeping it even this close indicates the pro is not able to move the way he wants to. Travs strength on the other hand is his movement

A serve bot is the rare exception. Isner will probably still beat a lot of solid high level younger rec players even when he is pushing 60 just due to his serve.
Click to expand...
At how high of a utr are you no longer a rec player? Double digits? 10 utr?
 
M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
At how high of a utr are you no longer a rec player? Double digits? 10 utr?
Click to expand...

It’s not about just about UTR.

A lot of high UTR college players will probably find that their dreams of tennis being their main occupation ends after college and they are forced to find other jobs. They will be considered rec players. As someone wrote even Fed is a rec player now.

Meanwhile there might be folks who are lower in UTR in the US and other countries who decide to take a chance and see if they can cut it as a pro, even if their dreams are unrealistic.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Revancha continued…

… serving to level the set, I had my chances, but he was a bit better. I got broken to lose the set 6-4.

We continued playing. I won the next game on his serve. But he broke me back, then also won the last game, with the winners starting to flow off his racquet again. So final was 4-6, 1-2.

Afterward he was feeling happy with his performance. “Jugué bien! Jugaste bien también.”

He said I have to return to Chile so that we can have another rematch. “Voy a entrenar!” he declared, “voy a entrenar también” I replied.

I mentioned that I had looked up his record and was impressed that he had beaten Gilbert Schaller, who beat Sampras at RG. He laughed and replied by saying he beat Gustavo Kuerten, 2 years before his first RG title. At Barranquilla challenger.

I asked him if he wore the wrist band in his playing days on tour. “No always bare wrist. Except when I play in Paraguay.”

He was using a stock Extreme today. But he said in his playing days, he always used lead tape at 3, 9, and 12. “Inteligente” I told him, as he pointed to his temple.
 
O

optic yellow

Legend
travlerajm said:
Revancha continued…

… serving to level the set, I had my chances, but he was a bit better. I got broken to lose the set 6-4.

We continued playing. I won the next game on his serve. But he broke me back, then also won the last game, with the winners starting to flow off his racquet again. So final was 4-6, 1-2.

Afterward he was feeling happy with his performance. “Jugué bien! Jugaste bien también.”

He said I have to return to Chile so that we can have another rematch. “Voy a entrenar!” he declared, “voy a entrenar también” I replied.

I mentioned that I had looked up his record and was impressed that he had beaten Gilbert Schaller, who beat Sampras at RG. He laughed and replied by saying he beat Gustavo Kuerten, 2 years before his first RG title. At Barranquilla challenger.

I asked him if he wore the wrist band in his playing days on tour. “No always bare wrist. Except when I play in Paraguay.”

He was using a stock Extreme today. But he said in his playing days, he always used lead tape at 3, 9, and 12. “Inteligente” I told him, as he pointed to his temple.
Click to expand...
Can you explain, for those not well-acquainted with South America, what it is about Paraguay that would cause him to make an exception to his wrist band rule?
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
optic yellow said:
Is Paraguay abnormally hot even by SA standards?
Click to expand...
Yes. In the summer it reaches the 2nd highest heat index in the world, second only to the Persian gulf.

I’ve been here when the heat index reaches 160F, and it’s not fun to try to play tennis in it. I also watched Belgian tennis player zizou Bergs almost die on court trying to finish a match in Davis cup vs bolivia.

And the joke about winter here is that it only lasts 3 weeks.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
CAREDDINGTON said:
I'd like to hear a Travlerajm story about him v. Fed. Both rec players... lol
Click to expand...
Haven’t played Fed yet. But I did play another series of matches over the weekend in Ecuador, and came within 2 points of taking the 3rd set, against a player who has beaten Delpo in a pro tennis match. But of course that was after losing the first 2 sets 0-6, 2-6. :)
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
CAREDDINGTON said:
What was the temp?
Click to expand...
81F and super humid Friday evening, covered clay court with really wet slow-playing clay and heavy wet fluffed up balls.

We played rematch at noon Sunday 90F with equatorial sun directly overhead, on fast hardcourt. I played well and got to within 3-4, but then wilted and had to retire after losing set 3-6. Wearing a widebrim my head temperature was heating up like a steak on the broiler. Not sure how my Guayaquil native opponent does it. Not even wearing a hat.
 
CAREDDINGTON

CAREDDINGTON

Semi-Pro
travlerajm said:
81F and super humid Friday evening, covered clay court with really wet slow-playing clay and heavy wet fluffed up balls.

We played rematch at noon Sunday 90F with equatorial sun directly overhead, on fast hardcourt. I played well and got to within 3-4, but then wilted and had to retire after losing set 3-6. Wearing a widebrim my head temperature was heating up like a steak on the broiler. Not sure how my Guayaquil native opponent does it. Not even wearing a hat.
Click to expand...
Sounds like Florida in November. I do always enojoy the clay, and it absorbs a ton of the radiant heat.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
CAREDDINGTON said:
Sounds like Florida in November. I do always enojoy the clay, and it absorbs a ton of the radiant heat.
Click to expand...
With all due respect to Floridians, I have never experienced anything quite as brutal as Ecuador noon time sun. My embarrassing appearance vs MEP in ATL in July was the closest, but this was even worse conditions (although I played much better because I came better prepared gear wise for the humidity).
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm said:
With all due respect to Floridians, I have never experienced anything quite as brutal as Ecuador noon time sun. My embarrassing appearance vs MEP in ATL in July was the closest, but this was even worse conditions (although I played much better because I came better prepared gear wise for the humidity).
Click to expand...
Actually that’s not true. Paraguay in summer when the heat index was 160F was worse. I had to retire after 15 minutes.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
CAREDDINGTON said:
Us up here in the States the hottest and most humid it will get is in Louisiana or Florida. Highest it will hear is about 115 F. 100% Humidity.
Click to expand...
I punched in your numbers to the online heat index calculator and I get 327F.

The highest heat index ever recorded on earth was 178F in Saudi Arabia. So maybe a slight exaggeration but no doubt brutal as well . :)
 
O

optic yellow

Legend
travlerajm said:
81F and super humid Friday evening, covered clay court with really wet slow-playing clay and heavy wet fluffed up balls.

We played rematch at noon Sunday 90F with equatorial sun directly overhead, on fast hardcourt. I played well and got to within 3-4, but then wilted and had to retire after losing set 3-6. Wearing a widebrim my head temperature was heating up like a steak on the broiler. Not sure how my Guayaquil native opponent does it. Not even wearing a hat.
Click to expand...
Well think about what would happen if you challenged your Guayaquil native opponent to a match on outdoor Seattle hardcourts in late October.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
optic yellow said:
Well think about what would happen if you challenged your Guayaquil native opponent to a match on outdoor Seattle hardcourts in late October.
Click to expand...
He would still kick my ass in the shade at Lower Woodland, because he’s way better than me, even when he’s not practicing much tennis and just doing CrossFit 7 days a week, but I’d be able to finish the match.
 
O

optic yellow

Legend
travlerajm said:
He would still kick my ass in the shade at Lower Woodland, because he’s way better than me, even when he’s not practicing much tennis and just doing CrossFit 7 days a week, but I’d be able to finish the match.
Click to expand...
My experience with people from that part of the world is that they are equally non-resilient to the worst of colder northern climates as we are the worst of their climates. I guess if he's in good shape it might not bother him once the blood gets flowing.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
optic yellow said:
My experience with people from that part of the world is that they are equally non-resilient to the worst of colder northern climates as we are the worst of their climates. I guess if he's in good shape it might not bother him once the blood gets flowing.
Click to expand...
Actually, that’s a good point.

There’s this teaching pro here in Paraguay. A few years ago, he beat me about 60% of our matches over the course of 20 meetings.

But I never won when it was hot. Only when it was (relatively) cold out.

This year, I haven’t beaten him yet, and he’s been gloating that he’s “invicto” on the year.

But all of our matches this year have been in the heat. Now that the weather has cooled down a bit, he’s been avoiding me and hasn’t let me play him since the summer (it’s fall here now).
 
onehandbh

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
optic yellow said:
My experience with people from that part of the world is that they are equally non-resilient to the worst of colder northern climates as we are the worst of their climates. I guess if he's in good shape it might not bother him once the blood gets flowing.
Click to expand...
Once it gets to about -12 (celcius), some of the hot climate people don't do as well.
 
onehandbh

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
CAREDDINGTON said:
That's why you live in a dually moderate climate.
Click to expand...
IMO, the coastal parts of Los Angeles have almost perfect weather for tennis.

Seattle is also pretty nice. Never gets too hot, too cold, or too humid.

Florida is a kind of humid and a little to windy during hurricane season.

Arid-zona is too dry for me.
 
CAREDDINGTON

CAREDDINGTON

Semi-Pro
onehandbh said:
IMO, the coastal parts of Los Angeles have almost perfect weather for tennis.

Seattle is also pretty nice. Never gets too hot, too cold, or too humid.

Florida is a kind of humid and a little to windy during hurricane season.

Arid-zona is too dry for me.
Click to expand...
I was thinking more about the Gulf Coast Belt, but those are good places also.
 
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