how man serves can YOU hit????

[cgwhitey99]

im having a bit of trouble. im currently trying to develop my serve a little bit. i think i've got the basic mechanics down but im trying to incorporate the odd tweak here and there.

so i grab a basket of balls and get to work. the only problem is i can only do around 3 baskets (a basket is around 50 balls) before my arm is toast. i dont feel as though i get enough work in.
im not hitting every serve at 100% but im certainly not rolling them in. so, should i hold back and serve in "slow motion" to try and incorporate these technical aspects? im trying to add slightly more upper body rotation, slightly greater knee bend and keeping my left arm up slightly longer (im a righty)

any and all help is greatly appreciated

 

[tennis_balla]

150 balls is quite a lot. Imagine hitting 150 golf balls on a driving range. Same thing. I don't know how you serve, or how quickly you serve (meaning time between each serve) but take your time, quality over quantity.

 

[TomT]

im having a bit of trouble. im currently trying to develop my serve a little bit. i think i've got the basic mechanics down but im trying to incorporate the odd tweak here and there.

so i grab a basket of balls and get to work. the only problem is i can only do around 3 baskets (a basket is around 50 balls) before my arm is toast. i dont feel as though i get enough work in.
im not hitting every serve at 100% but im certainly not rolling them in. so, should i hold back and serve in "slow motion" to try and incorporate these technical aspects? im trying to add slightly more upper body rotation, slightly greater knee bend and keeping my left arm up slightly longer (im a righty)

any and all help is greatly appreciated

I don't think you should practice serves until your arm is toast. :shock: To change the things you mentioned you can do mostly shadow serving (no ball) to build the muscle memory and strength for deepening the knee bend and exploding from it, and increasing your trunk rotation, back arch, etc. You can also practice your wrist snap without a ball. Then only a few dozen serves each day (on non-match days) for a couple or a few weeks should be enough to get the toss and contact points right.

Anyway, that's just a suggested approach. You seem to be overdoing single serving practice sessions from what you wrote. As tennis_balla said, go for quality over quantity. Take your time.

 

[cgwhitey99]

thank you very much. very useful information from you both.

in essence, i dont need to actually be striking a ball in order to incorporate these additions into my service action? or at least not as many balls!

if i was to generalize i'd say my serve is technically good, physically lazy. so its a case of adding the more physical elements (knee bend, body rotation) without hitting every ball?
to answer a previous questions, im hitting around 95-105mph without much "body" going into it. i wanted to bring my body into the action more to take the load off my arm. its not that my arm hurts or anything, i just think that if i were to distribute the work-load of a serve across my whole body (i.e legs, core, should etc) rather than predominantly using my arm, it'd up my consistency and accuracy

 

[TomT]

thank you very much. very useful information from you both.

in essence, i dont need to actually be striking a ball in order to incorporate these additions into my service action? or at least not as many balls!

if i was to generalize i'd say my serve is technically good, physically lazy. so its a case of adding the more physical elements (knee bend, body rotation) without hitting every ball?
to answer a previous questions, im hitting around 95-105mph without much "body" going into it. i wanted to bring my body into the action more to take the load off my arm. its not that my arm hurts or anything, i just think that if i were to distribute the work-load of a serve across my whole body (i.e legs, core, should etc) rather than predominantly using my arm, it'd up my consistency and accuracy

My serve is from 5 to 10 mph less than yours, also without much body going into it. I also have worked a little on just the things you're trying to improve. But, not because of arm considerations (I definitely don't overdo it, especially in practice ). I just wanted to see if I could do something to get more easy power. The problem for me is that more pronounced knee bend, explosion, more arch and more pronounced body rotation all require more energy. I'm still too weak from being sick to do all of that consistently to the point where it would make a significant difference in the effectiveness of my serve.

 

[cgwhitey99]

My serve is from 5 to 10 mph less than yours, also without much body going into it. I also have worked a little on just the things you're trying to improve. But, not because of arm considerations (I definitely don't overdo it, especially in practice ). I just wanted to see if I could do something to get more easy power. The problem for me is that more pronounced knee bend, explosion, more arch and more pronounced body rotation all require more energy. I'm still too weak from being sick to do all of that consistently to the point where it would make a significant difference in the effectiveness of my serve.

yes it does seem like quite a lot to add to a service action without knowing the exact benefits/reward. i certainly hope you get back up to speed soon. you'll have to let me know if your serve gets easier once you're 100% again

 

[Lukhas]

To learn how to serve, I did a lot of shadow swinging personally. Hitting too many serves in a row is bad for the shoulder, fatigue accumulates in the muscle, which can lead to injuries.

 

[mmk]

I generally hit 144 serves, but if I'm hitting at first serve speed (over 100mph) and it doesn't go in, my next serve is second serve speed (well under 100mph). I have hit over 200 in one session, my shoulder usually doesn't get sore.

 

[The Meat]

My legs and core get tired before my arms do, I think thats good? Anyways, you should be serving that much in one session, you should divide it throughout the week.

 

[cgwhitey99]

To learn how to serve, I did a lot of shadow swinging personally. Hitting too many serves in a row is bad for the shoulder, fatigue accumulates in the muscle, which can lead to injuries.

I generally hit 144 serves, but if I'm hitting at first serve speed (over 100mph) and it doesn't go in, my next serve is second serve speed (well under 100mph). I have hit over 200 in one session, my shoulder usually doesn't get sore.

by the looks of responses so far i think it might be best to incorporate a lot of "shadow" serving rather than actually striking the ball 100% of the time. maybe i'll be able to do 150 a bit easier once more strength has been built up.

do you find hitting 144+ balls reasonably helpful/productive in developing your serve?

 

[cgwhitey99]

My legs and core get tired before my arms do, I think thats good? Anyways, you should be serving that much in one session, you should divide it throughout the week.

do you have a certain number of serves that you'd hit in 1 session to;

A. get the most out of the session and
B. how many of those session would you do in a week to maximize your own improvement?

all of these things are quite specific to the person but its nice to see the capacity of others to know what sort of range to work in yourself.

 

[syke]

I have no problems hitting serves for hours. I could hit easily 500 a session. But these days, I prep each serve like I would in an actual match play. Just spending an hour or so each week, hitting around 150 balls.

Maybe with my background in golf, I never had issues hitting baskets after baskets. But I reckon, it is all down to getting the swing mechanics right.

When I first started off with tennis, I used to have a nagging pain in my shoulder after a long serve practice session. I have since adjusted my swinging arm to be more perpendicular to the axis of my body, voilà no more shoulder pain.

 

[syke]

150 balls is quite a lot. Imagine hitting 150 golf balls on a driving range. Same thing. I don't know how you serve, or how quickly you serve (meaning time between each serve) but take your time, quality over quantity.

No.... 150 balls on the driving range is nothing... That's just a warm up.

 

[cgwhitey99]

I have no problems hitting serves for hours. I could hit easily 500 a session. But these days, I prep each serve like I would in an actual match play. Just spending an hour or so each week, hitting around 150 balls.

Maybe with my background in golf, I never had issues hitting baskets after baskets. But I reckon, it is all down to getting the swing mechanics right.

When I first started off with tennis, I used to have a nagging pain in my shoulder after a long serve practice session. I have since adjusted my swinging arm to be more perpendicular to the axis of my body, voilà no more shoulder pain.

ok well in that case maybe i need to have a little look at adjusting the angle of my arm too, to make the action a bit more shoulder friendly.

 

[The Meat]

do you have a certain number of serves that you'd hit in 1 session to;

A. get the most out of the session and
B. how many of those session would you do in a week to maximize your own improvement?

all of these things are quite specific to the person but its nice to see the capacity of others to know what sort of range to work in yourself.

In a serving session I will probably only serve 50 balls, the rest of the time I will either play points with a partner or do active rallies. The only times I can actually come out to the courts is on a weekend or club meeting days, so roughly 2-3 days a week. I might occasionally go over 50-100 if I don't really have anyone else to hit with, then it's just a serving day.

Once you've found a serve that you can work with, you just want to improve the rhythm and consistency. 50 balls a practice session plus a few serves during a practice match should be enough once you've found your serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

One issue for stronger servers according to the Ellenbecker video is that for the serve the small external rotators and rotator cuff muscles have to work especially hard to slow down the arm and racket in the follow through. The RC muscles function to keep the arm bone's ball stably held in the shoulder socket. If that bone is not stably held it might cause injury during the violent service motion. These smaller muscles tend to get over worked in strong serving and are a likely muscle that might fatigue. The Ellenbecker video and other tennis references strongly recommend conditioning exercises, including external shoulder rotations, that use light weights and higher reps. The exercises are intended to build endurance, so that these important muscles do not fatigue and add to injury risk for the shoulder.

I usually do 3, 75 ball baskets, 225 balls, in a service practice secession. Stretch the practice secession out - I don't serve rapidly but deliberately stretch out the secession by reviewing HS video every 3-10 serves or stopping often and going through my mental check list to see what I'm leaving out of my serve.

The serves usually don't feel very good for the first bucket. Most likely, if I'm going to hit some smoother and stronger serves they will be in the later part of the second bucket. I'm probably getting tired in the third bucket. I mostly have technique problems - abbreviating or leaving out entirely motions that I believe are important for the service motion.

Last spring I was having some wrist pain and decided that I was not going to practice serves or forehands. Later I saw on a HS video what I thought was an improper wrist position on my serve that could have been causing the pain.

 

[tennis_ocd]

If improving, I'd think that one's legs should be screaming well before the arm gives out.

 

[charliefedererer]

thank you very much. very useful information from you both.

in essence, i dont need to actually be striking a ball in order to incorporate these additions into my service action? or at least not as many balls!

if i was to generalize i'd say my serve is technically good, physically lazy. so its a case of adding the more physical elements (knee bend, body rotation) without hitting every ball?
to answer a previous questions, im hitting around 95-105mph without much "body" going into it. i wanted to bring my body into the action more to take the load off my arm. its not that my arm hurts or anything, i just think that if i were to distribute the work-load of a serve across my whole body (i.e legs, core, should etc) rather than predominantly using my arm, it'd up my consistency and accuracy

Before your start your serve practice hitting balls, shadow the swing with the perfect body movements (knee bend, coil/uncoil, bow shape/reverse bow shape/cartwheel) you want at least a few times.

Then when you first start hitting the ball, precede each hit by one perfect practice swing.


If you find you can hit hits serves with great body movment, stop doing the practice swings.


But if you revert to hitting them without great body movement, go back to taking a practice swing before each serve.


[It is far too easy to revert back to your "lazy" serve, and if you keep hitting them that way during practice, you will be building "muscle memory" to do it the "lazy" way.]



Don't be surprised if this method is more physically exhausting than the way you are currently doing it.
With all the practice swings, you may find that at first you only can hit 50 serves, but you will be making more progress than hitting 150 the "lazy" way.


[Anyone hitting this many serves should be doing rotator cuff exercises like the Thrower's Ten: http://www.muhlenberg.edu/pdf/main/athletics/athletic_training/throwers10.pdf


Don't blow out your shoulder with bad form!!!

Your serve technique doing more harm than good? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s ]

 

[The Isomotion31]

My friend and I warm up our shoulders by throwing a football cross court for a few minutes. Slowly at first then we start firing the pig skin. Then we switch to the racquet and tennis balls to start practicing serving after getting warm.

 

[LeeD]

"MANY" is a waste of time.
You need to practice GOOD serves, not lots of serves.
Typical singles sets, you serve maybe 25 serves total.... in 45 minutes.

 

[Dimcorner]

Before practice I usually do about 2 baskets of serves only because I get there about 30 minutes early. It really doesn't tire me out and I don't feel pains but I'm just doing easy serves on 1st basket and a few 1st serves on the 2nd basket.

 

[mmk]

by the looks of responses so far i think it might be best to incorporate a lot of "shadow" serving rather than actually striking the ball 100% of the time. maybe i'll be able to do 150 a bit easier once more strength has been built up.

do you find hitting 144+ balls reasonably helpful/productive in developing your serve?

My biggest problem was my toss, and I didn't feel like just practicing tosses. I've always been able to serve with power (one opponent said he couldn't call what he didn't see), but one thing I learned from bad tosses is how to hit some really wicked slices. I can now put up what looks like a really bad toss, and get my opponent to where he has to run half way to the next court to try to return. Of course, I can only pull that off a few times a match before a good opponent catches on.

 

[cgwhitey99]

Before your start your serve practice hitting balls, shadow the swing with the perfect body movements (knee bend, coil/uncoil, bow shape/reverse bow shape/cartwheel) you want at least a few times.

Then when you first start hitting the ball, precede each hit by one perfect practice swing.


If you find you can hit hits serves with great body movment, stop doing the practice swings.


But if you revert to hitting them without great body movement, go back to taking a practice swing before each serve.


[It is far too easy to revert back to your "lazy" serve, and if you keep hitting them that way during practice, you will be building "muscle memory" to do it the "lazy" way.]



Don't be surprised if this method is more physically exhausting than the way you are currently doing it.
With all the practice swings, you may find that at first you only can hit 50 serves, but you will be making more progress than hitting 150 the "lazy" way.


[Anyone hitting this many serves should be doing rotator cuff exercises like the Thrower's Ten: http://www.muhlenberg.edu/pdf/main/athletics/athletic_training/throwers10.pdf


Don't blow out your shoulder with bad form!!!

Your serve technique doing more harm than good? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s ]

i've just got home from playing for a few hours and before i left i had a read and a run down of all the information you've provided here. i tried to incorporate as much as i could and see how it went. i could clearly feel when i had hit a technically good serve as i could feel pace being generated but my arm was very relaxed. it almost felt effortless to hit a decent serve with pace and direction. i'll certainly be persisting with the information and advice in all the videos and the method you outlined for practice at the start of the post.


that being said i can honestly say that ALL information, advice and guidance that everyone has provided has been unbelievably helpful. having read through it all i really cant wait to try and develop my serve. the only trouble is my backhand is useless too so i might be needed further help in the future!

i would just like to ask one more question to everybody. when looking closely at sampras' and federers serves, am i just imagining it or do they kind of bend their knees slightly up towards their stomach? its very subtle but it looks as if the torso is not completely stretched.

 

[LeeD]

Are you talking about the stomach crunch they do just as they hit the ball?
Roddick does it a lot.

 

[cgwhitey99]

Are you talking about the stomach crunch they do just as they hit the ball?
Roddick does it a lot.

yes! thats a great description of it! so im not just imagining it then?

 

[LeeD]

I think most of us can hit 300 serves pretty easily, at 70% effort.
At 95% effort, and maintaining form, maybe closer to 20 in a row.
The stomach crunch is needed to offset the post trophy pose where the body is bent backwards like a spring, the crunch initiating the closing of the spring, so the end can be with the body leaning forwards after being arched back facing the sky at loop swing.

 

[charliefedererer]

There is a fairly graphic description of this motion starting at 4:54 in the Sonic Serve video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajoZ0f7hw-A


This occurs as a consequence of rapidly "reversing" the bow shape formed when going into the trophy position, and which is really emphasized in the video above.

 

[TomT]

yes it does seem like quite a lot to add to a service action without knowing the exact benefits/reward.

I think that improving all the things I mentioned, which are also the things that you mentioned, would result in a much more effective and consistent serve. The problem for me is that I can't actually do all of that stuff (deeper knee bend, more back arch, more body torque, more explosion to contact) to the extent that it makes much of a difference in my serve. That is, in my case the point of diminishing returns is reached pretty early in the tweaking of those things. But for you it might be quite different, depending on your strength and ability to alter those things more or less easily.

i certainly hope you get back up to speed soon. you'll have to let me know if your serve gets easier once you're 100% again

Thanks. As for my serve getting easier, I don't think it can get any easier. But as my strength increases it might get a bit more powerful as well as a bit more consistent.

 

[TomT]

I think most of us can hit 300 serves pretty easily, at 70% effort.
At 95% effort, and maintaining form, maybe closer to 20 in a row.
The stomach crunch is needed to offset the post trophy pose where the body is bent backwards like a spring, the crunch initiating the closing of the spring, so the end can be with the body leaning forwards after being arched back facing the sky at loop swing.

Yeah, I've noticed that I can actually see my stomach muscles (when I strain and hold my gut in at the same time) when I'm playing a lot of tennis. Playing tennis is just wonderful for all around conditioning I think.

Back on topic. I never hit more than a couple dozen (24) serves in a row when practicing serves, and it's been my experience that as long as I do this pretty much every day then my serve improves.

 

[TennisCJC]

My basket holds a little more 50 to 60 balls. 2 baskets is typical practice and plenty. Occasionally, I will hit 3 baskets but that is my limit.

I suggest you hit 2 baskets for a couple of months and have a mix of first and 2nd serves. Then maybe try 3 baskets.

Work on technique first. Then placement and different spins. Make up games to put some stress on you like a match. Sample game: serve points with 1st and 2nd serve if you miss first serve. Can you make 10 1st serves before you double fault once? Hitting 20 consecutive 1st serves, can you make more than 12 or more in (60%+)? Hitting 20 consecutive 2nd serves, can you make 18 or more in (90%+)? Also, target practice is good where you target L, mid, and R part of box with 1st and 2nd serves.

 

[cgwhitey99]

There is a fairly graphic description of this motion starting at 4:54 in the Sonic Serve video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajoZ0f7hw-A


This occurs as a consequence of rapidly "reversing" the bow shape formed when going into the trophy position, and which is really emphasized in the video above.

Charlie, again, thank you. these videos have been hugely helpful. they've made me see aspects of serving that i never even noticed before. it really has made me break my serve down completely and build form the bottom up. i certainly owe you a drink (or 5!)

My basket holds a little more 50 to 60 balls. 2 baskets is typical practice and plenty. Occasionally, I will hit 3 baskets but that is my limit.

I suggest you hit 2 baskets for a couple of months and have a mix of first and 2nd serves. Then maybe try 3 baskets.

Work on technique first. Then placement and different spins. Make up games to put some stress on you like a match. Sample game: serve points with 1st and 2nd serve if you miss first serve. Can you make 10 1st serves before you double fault once? Hitting 20 consecutive 1st serves, can you make more than 12 or more in (60%+)? Hitting 20 consecutive 2nd serves, can you make 18 or more in (90%+)? Also, target practice is good where you target L, mid, and R part of box with 1st and 2nd serves.

i think for the first basket i'll be slow and methodical in trying to introduce and implement good habits in my service action. once i feel comfortable with lets say, 2 aspects i think i'll use the second basket for the exact things you've outlined there. placement, consistency etc.

 

[Fuji]

I do about 50 serves every time I practice them. Coming off a shoulder injury makes it a bit touchy, but I honestly do not gain any benefit past 50 (One basket) a session, simply because I do not maintain good form after them. In a match its totally different because of the time between with points and rest.

-Fuji

 

[tyu1314]

I dont know how many balls can i serve, because i always got bored before i get tire.:neutral:

 

[Lukhas]

How many can I hit? I don't know. I try to warm the motion up. In training my serve is awful, full motion or not. I tend to serve 2 balls on a side, then take two other balls and serve on the other side. When I'm in a match or whenever I have a plan to focus at, I become more accurate. Ironically enough, I tend to pass more second flat serves than first due to that lack of concentration... :lol:

 

[LeeD]

Serve practice should be practicing the the serves you hit in a match.
Meaning, no mindless repetition of mindless serves.
Practice what you are going to do. Do you hit mindless serves? If yes, then practice that.
If you hit placement serves, firsts and seconds, and variations of them, you should practice THAT, and not mindless serves.
Hitting 2 buckets of serves often leads to many mindless serves to fill the time.

 

[charliefedererer]

Charlie, again, thank you. these videos have been hugely helpful. they've made me see aspects of serving that i never even noticed before. it really has made me break my serve down completely and build form the bottom up. i certainly owe you a drink (or 5!)

Next time I'm in Oxford, I'll settle for a pint at The Bear.

 

[cgwhitey99]

charlie, your taste in pubs almost exceeds that of your excellent service advice. The Bear is a lovely establishment!

 

[gameboy]

As a person who has a partially torn rotator cuff, I would like to state that hitting 100 or more serve is a GREAT way to tear your rotator cuff.

Even if you don't feel the pain now, you are gradually chipping away the tendons in your shoulder and they will breakdown eventually.

There is a reason why baseball pitchers have a strict pitch count (and they are professionals). It is foolish to try to hit so many serves in one session.