I'm kind of glad Federer lost W19 and Novak lost the CYGS

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I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

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Searchlight said:
I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
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Nadal is epic af :cool:
 
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WildRevolver said:
Forget weeks at number one, Master 1000’s, and grand slams. Sentiments regarding Zverev is now the metric for ranking the big 3.
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Pretty much how I feel at this point...the GOAT race seems to need more than just the Grand Slam count...since no one can come to a conclusion...it needs an element of who is the most decent person...and as my Dad always said, "Those who you associate with can really say something about you." Federer was "friends" with Tiger and then dropped him like a hot potato...but Zverev is another level since its not really a crime to have a high sex drive.
 
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tsp_207

Semi-Pro
Just to let you know, every player who hasn't won the CYGS has technically lost it LOL. Djoker was the closest to it since Laver. That's something to celebrate. He was 96% of the way there. No one else has gone beyond 50-60% in the open era.
 
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Cortana said:
How so if he has all the other relevant records too? Weeks #1, YE#1, winning all 4 slams in a row, DCGS, being 1 match away from the Grand Slam after winning 27 GS matches in a row.
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Because I can see you guys debating who is the GOAT if Novak wins 21, or 22, or 23, or 24...some will say that he blew the biggest match of his life or that he's too boring to be the GOAT or that he had an abysmal record at Flushing Meadow...I feel that until he breaks Courts record and everyone else, including Serena, remains where they are, he'll never be universally recognized at the GOAT.
 
TearTheRoofOff

TearTheRoofOff

G.O.A.T.
Searchlight said:
I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
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Respecting Nadal is the ultimate fail. We can therefore conclude that all of the Big 3 are complete tossers (Nadal clearly respects himself by limiting any high demands for fast twitch returning by standing on the moon to receive) and the next generation need to lay down a proper gauntlet.
 
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Bender said:
beat me to it
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Which is why I feel Navratilova is the overall GOAT right now (with Laver second). It's easy to evaluate her because she won't play anymore and most likely won't become some social pariah anytime soon...she's not hampered by: the doubt produced by the Seles stabbing or Serena's tirades or Roger's 40-15 or Novak's CYGS fail or Nadal's one dimensional clay record or Court's whacky views or Laver's low slam count. Navratilova played both singles and doubles at the slams during her prime, is the overall champ at the Cathedral and probably wouldn't call Zverev a great guy.
 
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Standaa said:
I’m kinda not glad
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I was rooting for both Roger at W19 and Novak for the CYGS, but after taking a closer look at the people they are ok associating with, it's a big let down for me...as Mary Carillo said, they have children...are these the role models they want for their kids?
 
zagor

zagor

Bionic Poster
Searchlight said:
I was rooting for both Roger at W19 and Novak for the CYGS, but after taking a closer look at the people they are ok associating with, it's a big let down for me...as Mary Carillo said, they have children...are these the role models they want for their kids?
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And what are those nefarious characters Fed and Novak are associating with? Keep in mind that we barely know anything about their personal lives, we just have glimpses at best.

As for Mary Carillo, maybe she forgot what due process is and prefers we return to the days of mob lynching.
 
mike danny

mike danny

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Searchlight said:
I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
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Rafa has at least AO 2012 as his big fail.
 
T

thrust

Legend
Searchlight said:
Because I can see you guys debating who is the GOAT if Novak wins 21, or 22, or 23, or 24...some will say that he blew the biggest match of his life or that he's too boring to be the GOAT or that he had an abysmal record at Flushing Meadow...I feel that until he breaks Courts record and everyone else, including Serena, remains where they are, he'll never be universally recognized at the GOAT.
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Women's tennis accomplishments, have nothing to do with the men's GOAT discussion.
 
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zagor said:
And what are those nefarious characters Fed and Novak are associating with? Keep in mind that we barely know anything about their personal lives, we just have glimpses at best.

As for Mary Carillo, maybe she forgot what due process is and prefers we return to the days of mob lynching.
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I'm not associating them with anybody...they do it themselves.
 
clayqueen

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Searchlight said:
I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
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Maybe Rafa believes in innocent until proved guilty.
 
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tennis24x7

Professional
Searchlight said:
I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
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Yeah right and when Novak does reach 25 you will say he needs atleast 30. Fed or Nadal never held all 4 like Novak did, so give credit to the man. He has done it twice now. He is the GOAT now and will be when he gets atleast 2 more GSs.
 
NonP

NonP

Legend
Searchlight said:
Which is why I feel Navratilova is the overall GOAT right now (with Laver second). It's easy to evaluate her because she won't play anymore and most likely won't become some social pariah anytime soon...she's not hampered by: the doubt produced by the Seles stabbing or Serena's tirades or Roger's 40-15 or Novak's CYGS fail or Nadal's one dimensional clay record or Court's whacky views or Laver's low slam count. Navratilova played both singles and doubles at the slams during her prime, is the overall champ at the Cathedral and probably wouldn't call Zverev a great guy.
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You might have just become my favorite new poster for your Eugene O'Neill avatar (fat chance most of the jokers here would recognize it/him) and now for your Navratilova fandom. Yes Martina is the real GOAT, man or woman, and I should add that a player's stance/influence on social issues can absolutely factor in one's GOAT consideration. In the grand scheme of things BJK is the most important tennis player ever, but she'll always be 2nd to my gal who's been a decidedly less corporate-friendly gadfly.

P.S. Do you have a favorite O'Neill play, or is there a backstory behind your avatar that you care to share?

zagor said:
As for Mary Carillo, maybe she forgot what due process is and prefers we return to the days of mob lynching.
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AFAIK Mary never called Zverev guilty or called for his removal from anything. Rather she decided not to participate in this year's LC cuz she was told she could not speak about Alex at all, which is a perfectly valid and even principled stance to take.

Also the court of public opinion is not the same as the legal one(s). To paraphrase Romney (of all people), "innocent until proven guilty" is for criminal convictions, not speculations (within limits, of course).
 
clayqueen

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
tennis24x7 said:
Yeah right and when Novak does reach 25 you will say he needs atleast 30. Fed or Nadal never held all 4 like Novak did, so give credit to the man. He has done it twice now. He is the GOAT now and will be when he gets atleast 2 more GSs.
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When and where is the award ceremony for the tennis GOAT?
 
T

thrust

Legend
tennis24x7 said:
Yeah right and when Novak does reach 25 you will say he needs atleast 30. Fed or Nadal never held all 4 like Novak did, so give credit to the man. He has done it twice now. He is the GOAT now and will be when he gets atleast 2 more GSs.
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Novak is also the only one of the Big 3 to have won all slams, at least twice. He is the only on to have won all masters titles and the only one to have won all masters, at least twice. Novak has more weeks and YE at #1 than Roger and Rafa. In reality, it is Nadal and Federer who need at least 2 more slams than Novak to be considered the GOAT.
 
Strale

Strale

Semi-Pro
This is incomparable...Federer blew a legit chance to separate himself from Novak and Rafa and also it was most likely his final slam final whilr in Novak case he already surpassed the expectations and everything after RG 2021 was cherry on top of the cake...


Federer had a much harder loss in my opinion...Novak still has few slams in him..
 
BeatlesFan

BeatlesFan

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Searchlight said:
Federer was "friends" with Tiger and then dropped him like a hot potato.
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Planned Nike photo ops at the USO don’t constitute “friendship.”
500
 
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NonP said:
You might have just become my favorite new poster for your Eugene O'Neill avatar (fat chance most of the jokers here would recognize it/him) and now for your Navratilova fandom. Yes Martina is the real GOAT, man or woman, and I should add that a player's stance/influence on social issues can absolutely factor in one's GOAT consideration. In the grand scheme of things BJK is the most important tennis player ever, but she'll always be 2nd to my gal who's been a decidedly less corporate-friendly gadfly.

P.S. Do you have a favorite O'Neill play, or is there a backstory behind your avatar that you care to share?



AFAIK Mary never called Zverev guilty or called for his removal from anything. Rather she decided not to participate in this year's LC cuz she was told she could not speak about Alex at all, which is a perfectly valid and even principled stance to take.

Also the court of public opinion is not the same as the legal one(s). To paraphrase Romney (of all people), "innocent until proven guilty" is for criminal convictions, not speculations (within limits, of course).
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Long Day's Journey Into Night . . .

as for Mary Carrillo, in this podcast, she says that she believes Olga:
podcasts.apple.com

‎Behind the Racquet Pod: Mary Carillo on the Zverev Allegations and Tennis Journalism on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Behind the Racquet Pod, Ep Mary Carillo on the Zverev Allegations and Tennis Journalism - 28 Sept 2021
podcasts.apple.com
 
gjm127

gjm127

Hall of Fame
Searchlight said:
I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
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Still feel like 40-15 hurt Federer more than USO21 F hurt Djokovic. W19 for Federer would have sealed the GOAT debate for good, at least from Federer's perspective :laughing:. Had Federer won W19, Djokovic would have been aiming to tie the GS record at 20 with the CYGS.
 
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gjm127 said:
Still feel like 40-15 hurt Federer more than USO21 F hurt Djokovic. W19 for Federer would have sealed the GOAT debate for good, at least from Federer's perspective :laughing:. Had Federer won W19, Djokovic would have been aiming to tie the GS record at 20 with the CYGS.
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yeah I was rooting for Federer to win that but I got over it when I realized that I had no empathy for a very blessed man (fame, money, family) who lost an imporant tennis match. And now, I have very little apathy for Fed because of his "endorsement" of Zverev as a good guy. Plus the ridiculousness of those outfits at Wimbledon with Anne Wintour looking on just made me roll my eyes. Both matches would have sealed the deal I think but I guess neither is the chosen one, yet, maybe.
 
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BeatlesFan said:
Planned Nike photo ops at the USO don’t constitute “friendship.”
500
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was this before or after the golf clubs...I presume it was before, otherwise, Nadal probably not allowed this picture to happen. I guess it's no crime to be an absolute sex addict if everyone is willing . . . Amazing how Tiger's public image did not really suffer too much, it seems at least.
 
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thrust said:
Novak is also the only one of the Big 3 to have won all slams, at least twice. He is the only on to have won all masters titles and the only one to have won all masters, at least twice. Novak has more weeks and YE at #1 than Roger and Rafa. In reality, it is Nadal and Federer who need at least 2 more slams than Novak to be considered the GOAT.
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yes, but the disagreement will continue until he reaches 25. he could have shut everybody up if he had won at Flushing Meadow...but, apparently, he is not the chosen one, yet.
 
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tennis24x7 said:
Yeah right and when Novak does reach 25 you will say he needs atleast 30. Fed or Nadal never held all 4 like Novak did, so give credit to the man. He has done it twice now. He is the GOAT now and will be when he gets atleast 2 more GSs.
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Personally, I do rank Novak ahead of Fed and Nadal, but I don't think he will be universally recognized as such until he reaches 25.
 
T

tex123

Hall of Fame
Searchlight said:
I think Federer has become a marketing tool and calling Zverev a great guy just doesn't sit well with me. For Novak, I did want to see history made but I'm not a fan of coach Goran's past comments. As for Nadal, I feel he'll never get the respect he deserves, though I was never a huge fan. The GOAT discussion seeems like it will be an unresolved matter unless Novak goes on to win 25 slams. As of right now, Federer has W19 as his epic fail and now Novak has his. Out of the three, I'm starting to respect Rafa the most although I can't say I know how he feels about Zverev.
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W19 was the epic choke at 40-15. Fed should've won that. Novak's not the same. Novak was booted out by the nextgen.

I'm glad you like Rafa. But, rooting for a player on the basis of how they've talked about Zv seems a bit odd.
 
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tex123 said:
W19 was the epic choke at 40-15. Fed should've won that. Novak's not the same. Novak was booted out by the nextgen.

I'm glad you like Rafa. But, rooting for a player on the basis of how they've talked about Zv seems a bit odd.
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Novaks loss seems more epic to me since he spent the whole year to get to this one match and then didn't show up.

If a public figure embraces someone accused of horrifying acts, I'm left unsettled.
 
D

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Searchlight said:
Novaks loss seems more epic to me since he spent the whole year to get to this one match and then didn't show up.

If a public figure embraces someone accused of horrifying acts, I'm left unsettled.
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Accused is the key word.

Someone mentioned the phrase court of public opinion. In this context, I must submit that the court of public opinion has no legal sanction and therefore you cannot expect everyone to agree with what 'public opinion' is on an issue. Especially since public opinion is essentially what a few vociferous journalists and talking heads on social media believe and is not as unanimously held a view as the court of public opinion would like to believe. Look, I am not saying I exonerate Zverev. I am just saying it is not a lock that he DID do what he is accused of until he either owns up or is tried and found guilty. So Federer or any other major tennis player's opinion on Zverev is not nearly as controversial as you think. It is that the media has moved the Overton window well to the Left on this issue and expect others to follow suit. One sees it easily enforced in the US for fear of retribution but it appears so far that it is a trickier thing in Europe, especially in a freelance sport like tennis. This is what Fed said too when asked about enforcing a code of conduct like sporting leagues in the US - he said it was much more complicated to enforce that in tennis because players are freelance agents and don't represent a team.
 
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