Is it even worth practicing a flat serve as a shorter guy?

[Jst21121]

5'8 here. (which basically means I'm 5'7 as I add an inch or two lol)

At the higher levels of tennis play, is it even worth investing in a flat serve? I play for fun, and I look forward to maxing out at 4-4.5 level.

I know the aspects of height, leverage, room for clearance- and error with flats/kicks/slices and how height works into it.

So the question is, as a shorter guy, there isn't much clearance, there is much more room for error, and due to height/leverage- I'm assuming I won't ever reach a taller persons speed in a flat serve or placement...

So is it even worth really investing in- or am I better off just hitting kick serves with great placement along with slices in between (with the occasional flat) to keep people guessing? And for those that are college level/amateur/pro, is there even such a thing as a flat serve at those levels with shorter people?

Thanks!

 

[travlerajm]

5'8 here.

At the higher levels of tennis play, is it even worth investing in a flat serve? I play for fun, and I look forward to maxing out at 4-4.5 level.

I know the aspects of height, leverage, room for clearance- and error with flats/kicks/slices and how height works into it.

So the question is, as a shorter guy, there isn't much clearance, there is much more room for error, and due to height/leverage- I'm assuming I won't ever reach a taller persons speed in a flat serve or placement...

So is it even worth really investing in- or am I better off just hitting kick serves with great placement along with slices in between (with the occasional flat) to keep people guessing?

Thanks!

No.

As a little guy, you should invest in a reliable 2nd serve that won’t get attacked.

The thing about kick serves, is that unless you have a lot on it, if it bounces higher it might just make it easier for your opponent to attack. A serve that curves sideways and bounces lower might be less attackable.

I would practice your spin serve, but practice it with various attack angles so that you can vary the bounce height to adjust for different opponents.

 

[ptuanminh]

at 4.0 and below, people are horrible at serve return. so i think you can serve watever you like, as long as, you have the game to back it up.

 

[socallefty]

If you are in your mid-thirties already and just learning tennis, I would focus on a reliable slice serve first and then a topslice serve. Once you are accurate with those and can direct them where you want to either side of the box and body, you could work on a kick. But, you need more racquet head speed (RHS) to make the kick jump up enough to bother taller opponents and so, you should learn it after you know how to generate a lot of RHS on the serve using your body’s kinetic chain.

I would skip the flat serve altogether unless you are extremely athletic with good hops and can develop a motion where you can drive your body upwards and make high contact with the ball along with generating fast RHS. The chance of developing good technique for a fast flat serve that can be a weapon without coaching might not be high.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

You should definitely learn how to hit flat for your overhead smash. For serves, not quite as important. But keep in mind that WTA players shorter than you have averaged over 100 mph. Simona Halep, at 5'6", has hit some serves at 108 mph. Ash Barty, at a mere 5'5", has hit serves at 112 mph. And both these women were fairly decent with their 1st serve placement.

For me (5'10+"), my trajectory-bending lefty spin was driving players below 4.5 NTRP crazy. So I didn't bother to work on my flat serves. However, when I started playing against players in the 4.5-5.5 range, I needed to mix up my spin serves with flatter serves with more heat.

As a shorter player, you should be able to do quite a bit with a variety of spin serves, especially if you can place them well. But it's not bad idea to develop some faster flat-ish serves that you can put into play 50% to 60% of the time (or 60% to 70% of the time for 1st serves in doubles).

 

[eah123]

The easiest serve to learn is flat serve. Second easiest once you can serve flat consistently is slice serve. Hardest to learn is kick serve, but when you can do it, it’s the highest percentage. Speed wise, it’s flat>slice>kick.

In my opinion, it doesn’t matter how tall you are, you need to learn flat serve first. We teach 4 foot tall juniors (kids) how to serve flat, you can learn, too!

A good slice serve also has some power behind it. The mechanic for giving your slice serve power is exactly the same as your flat serve. So if you never learn how to hit a good flat serve, I don’t think you can learn a good slice serve. Probably just some weak spinny thing that will get killed by anyone NTRP 3.5+ when they figure out it’s your only serve and know it’s coming.

 

[socallefty]

The easiest serve to learn is flat serve.

It is the easiest serve if you are OK with a slow serve that doesn’t bother any opponents except those who can’t put away easy serves. If you want a flat serve that is a weapon that can bother opponents which you can locate to either side of the box at a decent first serve % (>65%), it is not so easy especially for a short player.

With a slice, the sidespin can bother opponents at a slower pace than a flat serve and you can vary it easily at different speeds as a 1st or 2nd serve with the same motion.

 

[weelie]

It is the easiest serve if you are OK with a slow serve that doesn’t bother any opponents except those who can’t put away easy serves.

He meant it is easiest to learn. It is the basic serve you start with. If you cannot hit that, you probably cannot hit a reliable spin serve either. Winning a point is another thing completely.

So from my perspective, you likely will need to learn all types of serves before you can choose which to hit. Flat is basic, then slice is the next one, adding top spin to it next. Variety probably is the key for winning, learn to hit spots and different spin, learn to hide your serve intentions, learn to analyze what the opponent does not like.

If you want to skip the flat completely, you could settle on a more extreme grip. Towards easter backhand from continental, for more extreme spin. (Of course if you want to surprise with Rosol reverse (lefty) spin serve, you should hit that one with a FH grip but flat delivery).

 

[pencilcheck]

5'8 here. (which basically means I'm 5'7 as I add an inch or two lol)

At the higher levels of tennis play, is it even worth investing in a flat serve? I play for fun, and I look forward to maxing out at 4-4.5 level.

I know the aspects of height, leverage, room for clearance- and error with flats/kicks/slices and how height works into it.

So the question is, as a shorter guy, there isn't much clearance, there is much more room for error, and due to height/leverage- I'm assuming I won't ever reach a taller persons speed in a flat serve or placement...

So is it even worth really investing in- or am I better off just hitting kick serves with great placement along with slices in between (with the occasional flat) to keep people guessing? And for those that are college level/amateur/pro, is there even such a thing as a flat serve at those levels with shorter people?

Thanks!

doesn't matter what serve you can hit, make a serve that you can place on the line and ace comfortably then that's high level serve. keep in mind, very few actually can do real kick serve, if your serve doesn't kick up to the top of the back fence, with decent speed that can ace most 4.0 then it is not really a high level kick serve, it is just another slice serve. So I would suggest to start somewhere you can do, my guess would be a good slice serve.

 

[Pass750]

At 4.0 for the most part the serve is not a weapon. Just get one that doesn’t cost you points. At 4.5 it’s a much bigger weapon, you will be at a disadvantage without a serve as a weapon. But it’s very tough to make it to 4.5 so that may be moot for you.

 

[Dragy]

if your serve doesn't kick up to the top of the back fence

So only Isner hits a kick serve?

Well you may be used to playing in very hot conditions on concrete courts, I dunno. But typical criteria for hick serve is getting it’s peak around baseline, rising to returner’s shoulder at least. That makes trying to step in and attack risky, as ball is steeply rising after unpredictable bounce. The biggest purpose of kick serve is to make it uncomfortable to play for returner and to make him return from further back, unless taking bigger risk.

I actually hit couple of kick serve aces the other day in tournament match. But those just both hit the T line, was serving on the deuce side. I’ve also aced people with it using extreme angle on the ad side, but again, that’s not some big pace story.

 

[heninfan99]

Try to serve like the 12 yr old that crushed MEP.

 

[Jonesy]

Nonsense. Almost your height here, and also with a low toss since i use a lightning style of serve. Blast powerful first serves all the time. You have plenty of height to use and still hit flat aces.

What i recommend on the other hand is to never go full flat on first serves, always a have a bit of slice. I say this of all strokes, be it smashes, volleys or groundstrokes, always add some type of spin to it, because then the spin will become a measure of control to the stroke.

Look at the shorter guy serve and tell me it is not worth having a blasting first serve as a short guy.

 

[nyta2]

5'8 here. (which basically means I'm 5'7 as I add an inch or two lol)

At the higher levels of tennis play, is it even worth investing in a flat serve? I play for fun, and I look forward to maxing out at 4-4.5 level.

I know the aspects of height, leverage, room for clearance- and error with flats/kicks/slices and how height works into it.

So the question is, as a shorter guy, there isn't much clearance, there is much more room for error, and due to height/leverage- I'm assuming I won't ever reach a taller persons speed in a flat serve or placement...

So is it even worth really investing in- or am I better off just hitting kick serves with great placement along with slices in between (with the occasional flat) to keep people guessing? And for those that are college level/amateur/pro, is there even such a thing as a flat serve at those levels with shorter people?

Thanks!

5'4" here (ntrp4.5, ~utr8)
priority for me:
1. consistency
2. depth
3. placement
4. pace/spin

topspin & kick gave me very good consistency (high margin, dips fast).. CON: hardest to generate pace, sits up if not placed well, or against anyone good at anticipating it (presuming you're hitting it less then 80mph... i can only hit mine around 60mph)... and really sits up against tall players (eg. a to a 6'4" guy, my kicker was perfectly in his strikezone... he actually inspired me to learn slice). top&kick require alot of physicallity to be effective (think one bouncing to the back fence - ntrp5.0+ will one hop it to the middle of the back fence)

slice: still moves, has some consistency, typically better depth & and usually more pace/spin (more rhs is xfered into pace), and stays low (better for doubles, forces returner to hit up where my partner will have an easier time poaching it - topspin & kicker, if taken early, gives returner to hit "down")... it's also easier on the body (no accidental back bending, can even "arm" your serve, and still be effective)

flat: lower percentage, but is required at utr9+ to get 1-2 free/easy points - obviously requires your 2nd serve (top/kick/slice to be bulletproof), unless you expect to grind every single point... (ala diego, nishioka, etc...)...great when disguised with slice... can't tell which is coming.

in summary... i've learned i need all the serve types... if i hope to compete with upper-ntrp4.5+...
in 3.5: top to middle of box was enough.. no doublefaults
in 4.0: top to bh was good enough
in low-mid4.5: kick to bh was my goto...
high4.5+: everyone has a decent bh, so need to be able to also hit slice, and am practicing flat much more than i previously did, as a requirement if i hope to ever get to the upper levels of 4.5 or low5.0.

alot of (ex)college guys (div3) i've talked to said, even though they could hit a kick, it sat up too much (not enough pace), so they preferred slice
meanwhile, all the div1 guys i've talked to said that "everyone" kicked at div1... but they also served 115mph+ so their kicker was traveling at 80mph+

 

[nyta2]

Nonsense. Almost your height here, and also with a low toss since i use a lightning style of serve. Blast powerful first serves all the time. You have plenty of height to use and still hit flat aces.

What i recommend on the other hand is to never go full flat on first serves, always a have a bit of slice. I say this of all strokes, be it smashes, volleys or groundstrokes, always add some type of spin to it, because then the spin will become a measure of control to the stroke.

+1
side note, when i go flat, it seems like i'm getting a tiny bit of top on mine (obviously not like a topspin serve)... appears to dive down quickly, and distinctly... whereas my "hard slice" (which to me is different from a heavy slice) will not curve but will skid and stay low

 

[Hit 'em clean]

There is no reason you can't develop an effective flat serve. As others have said a lot WTA players are short and they do just fine. If you can get your serve speed around 95-100... it'll be plenty effective if you have good placement. Good placement is a hugely important aspect to serving that often gets overlooked as people chase speed. A good spin serve is important, but it's nice to get cheap points with a good flat serve. I've seen plenty of people and hit aces that aren't triple digits, but placed well.

I'm only 5'7" so I do understand your logic and it isn't 'wrong', but you shouldn't give up on hitting a good flat serve. If I'm having a bad day with my flat serve I will lean on my spin serves and just put extra juice on them for the first serve. Shorter people do have a smaller margin of error, but you can still easily achieve 50-60% in if you work at it. If I'm getting 50% plus of my first serves in it's an effective shot that I get easy points off of. Less than 50% in and that's when I start thinking about hitting spin serves. On good days I have no problem getting 60-70% flat serves in and my good flat serves avg between 98-105mph. If I'm placing the ball really well I can get quite a few aces and unreturned serves which really takes pressure off your serve games.

 

[LuckyR]

Whatever you choose to do with your serve, don't use your height as the deciding factor since Justine Henin at 5'6" could serve flat at 122 mph.

 

[5263]

5'8 here. (which basically means I'm 5'7 as I add an inch or two lol)

At the higher levels of tennis play, is it even worth investing in a flat serve? I play for fun, and I look forward to maxing out at 4-4.5 level.

I know the aspects of height, leverage, room for clearance- and error with flats/kicks/slices and how height works into it.

So the question is, as a shorter guy, there isn't much clearance, there is much more room for error, and due to height/leverage- I'm assuming I won't ever reach a taller persons speed in a flat serve or placement...

So is it even worth really investing in- or am I better off just hitting kick serves with great placement along with slices in between (with the occasional flat) to keep people guessing? And for those that are college level/amateur/pro, is there even such a thing as a flat serve at those levels with shorter people?

Thanks!

No and since the flat serve is not the fastest type serve, but has the worst window of acceptance, why would anyone train to hit it?

 

[Happi]

No and since the flat serve is not the fastest type serve, but has the worst window of acceptance, why would anyone train to hit it?

What is in your opinion the fastest type serve.

 

[Rosstour]

I'm 5'6" and could hit around 115 in HS

Can still hit it around/just over 100mph and I'm 41

IMO technique and arm liveliness are more important than height

 

[socallefty]

Whatever you choose to do with your serve, don't use your height as the deciding factor since Justine Henin at 5'6" could serve flat at 122 mph.

His height is not his deciding factor. The fact that he is learning how to serve in his mid-thirties likely without a coach might be. How many with an effective flat serve would fit this profile at his height?

 

[user92626]

OP,

Have you looked into this solution to increase your height?

 

[5263]

What is in your opinion the fastest type serve.

I think it is more than my opinion. It was confirmed by my associate, Roscoe Tanner and we can see that Roddick, also hit a version of the Power Slice for his biggest serves.

 

[Jst21121]

These are all very interesting and good responses.

I guess the reason why this came up- was because I was hitting the other day and the court next to me- had this dude that literally when he served- it sounded like a freight train was just going through. It echoed and the ball was flying. Fastest serve I've seen in my club.

Dude was like 6'4 and was just hitting flat serves and literally the receiver on the other end had to "guess" where its going and just go there and hope to chip it back.

Then I found myself asking myself- even if I train every single day to get to that level- I don't think it's possible due to height, and that's where I came here and asked that question. My flats feel solid and I can get the occasional ace every other set. But this 6'4 dude was literally acing every other serve. And that's why I posed this question.

All of these responses are good and I sorta get the big picture here. At the 4.0 level its sorta not a big deal. Have fun, get it in, but anything above that you gotta fine tune your game and play to your strengths and not even really bother with things you can't control.

 

[zaph]

I am 5' 6", so don't even have your advantages, add to the fact I am lightly built and serving isn't really my thing. My solution is spin, if you can't fast bowl, you spin bowl them (sorry Americans).

My two favourite serves are the slice and the topspin. The slice is actually more risky because unless you get it right you will hit straight into a RH's forehand. The topspin serve is one I love because it causes people so many problems. Allot of this to be fair, is because very few players actually use it and so opponents don't know how to deal with it. I am amazed how many dump the return off that serve straight in the bottom of the net or nail it into the back fence.

Whatever you do you're going to have to really throw yourself into the serve, use your body, legs, the lot. This can be frustrating when your 6'6" opponent achieves the same amount of power using just their pinkie finger. Though that is somewhat compensated for how hilarious it is watching such a player double fault, especially when they fail to clear the net. Never quite understood how they manage to do that.

 

[nyta2]

I think it is more than my opinion. It was confirmed by my associate, Roscoe Tanner and we can see that Roddick, also hit a version of the Power Slice for his biggest serves.

interesting... i didn't know that.
i presumed guys like roddick just hit more spin to increase their %... especially when they have mph to "give"... ie. a 130 spin serve is "good enough" if it means a much higher % into his spot (vs. say 150 "flat" that goes in -20%)

 

[Jst21121]

I am 5' 6", so don't even have your advantages, add to the fact I am lightly built and serving isn't really my thing. My solution is spin, if you can't fast bowl, you spin bowl them (sorry Americans).

My two favourite serves are the slice and the topspin. The slice is actually more risky because unless you get it right you will hit straight into a RH's forehand. The topspin serve is one I love because it causes people so many problems. Allot of this to be fair, is because very few players actually use it and so opponents don't know how to deal with it. I am amazed how many dump the return off that serve straight in the bottom of the net or nail it into the back fence.

Whatever you do you're going to have to really throw yourself into the serve, use your body, legs, the lot. This can be frustrating when your 6'6" opponent achieves the same amount of power using just their pinkie finger. Though that is somewhat compensated for how hilarious it is watching such a player double fault, especially when they fail to clear the net. Never quite understood how they manage to do that.

Yup
This is exactly how I felt watching this 6'4 dude serve. He wasn't in the best shape visibly... he was just tall and had experience...and here I am...doing triathlons, on off days doing box jumps, biking, swimming, running in the morning, training etc... best shape of my life....

And this dude just slams the ball so hard that you blink and you missed the return. Oh well.

 

[zaph]

These are all very interesting and good responses.

I guess the reason why this came up- was because I was hitting the other day and the court next to me- had this dude that literally when he served- it sounded like a freight train was just going through. It echoed and the ball was flying. Fastest serve I've seen in my club.

Dude was like 6'4 and was just hitting flat serves and literally the receiver on the other end had to "guess" where its going and just go there and hope to chip it back.

Then I found myself asking myself- even if I train every single day to get to that level- I don't think it's possible due to height, and that's where I came here and asked that question. My flats feel solid and I can get the occasional ace every other set. But this 6'4 dude was literally acing every other serve. And that's why I posed this question.

All of these responses are good and I sorta get the big picture here. At the 4.0 level its sorta not a big deal. Have fun, get it in, but anything above that you gotta fine tune your game and play to your strengths and not even really bother with things you can't control.

One thing I would say about such a player, is it is impressive but their weakness can be a lack of variety. I play someone who has a massive first serve but that is all he has, pace. So the trick is to Nadal him, stand virtually at the back wall and buy yourself time to return the serve.

The really dangerous servers are those who have big pace but also have control. I use to play someone who had their service measured on a speed gun and could hit 125mph. It wasn't just the speed, he could hit all the spots in the service box. Often the ball went passed me before I could react.

Even if he missed the first serve, it didn't help because he could put masses of topspin on the second serve. Some of them of them were still rising as they hit the back fence. He was pretty much impossible to play against.

 

[liam the shark]

Well at the pro and college level a flat serve is a must because you will become too predictable if you kick or slice it all the time. Also most aces are flat serves and if you get good at them they can win you a lot of free points because they are fast and don't bounce too high.

At the rec level, you just need a consistent serve but once you get to the 4.5 level you can't really dink it in anymore. If I were you, I would learn it because 1) it makes you a more complete tennis player and 2) they are definitely one of the most satisfying shots to hit

Youre height is no issue. If you said you were 5 feet tall then maybe but at 5'7 you have plenty of height over the net to hit flat

 

[Happi]

I think it is more than my opinion. It was confirmed by my associate, Roscoe Tanner and we can see that Roddick, also hit a version of the Power Slice for his biggest serves.

Thanks man, would you care to elaborate on the Power Slice serve. I just talked to my coach (who used to be a high level player) and he told me that the flat serve does not exist, and there is always some kind of spin to the ball when serving.

 

[Happi]

Well at the pro and college level a flat serve is a must because you will become too predictable if you kick or slice it all the time. Also most aces are flat serves and if you get good at them they can win you a lot of free points because they are fast and don't bounce too high.

At the rec level, you just need a consistent serve but once you get to the 4.5 level you can't really dink it in anymore. If I were you, I would learn it because 1) it makes you a more complete tennis player and 2) they are definitely one of the most satisfying shots to hit

Youre height is no issue. If you said you were 5 feet tall then maybe but at 5'7 you have plenty of height over the net to hit flat

Someone told me that you have to be about 2m high (6'5) to be able to hit flat straight down the service box. I once tested this with a ladder placed at the baseline, I climbed up the stairs, and visually you have to be really high up before you can actually see the service box line free of the net tape.

 

[Dragy]

Someone told me that you have to be about 2m high (6'5) to be able to hit flat straight down the service box. I once tested this with a ladder placed at the baseline, I climbed up the stairs, and visually you have to be really high up before you can actually see the service box line free of the net tape.

But even flat balls curves down quite a bit due to gravity. I bet unless you surpass 130, that’s not coming close enough to straight line. Hitting below 100 can even use some backspin

If I remember correctly, Federer used to make contact at close to 10ft. So lift off the ground also gives some extra.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Someone told me that you have to be about 2m high (6'5) to be able to hit flat straight down the service box. I once tested this with a ladder placed at the baseline, I climbed up the stairs, and visually you have to be really high up before you can actually see the service box line free of the net tape.

UP Open Spin Study:

Our Research Project - Our Results

Flat serves IRL have some spin (topspin or top-slice). At the pro level, a first serve will usually have more than 1200 rpm and can even exceed 3000 rpm. The topspin on a "flat serve" will help to curve the ball down into the service box.

If we were to assume a spinless serve, geometry tells us that flat, straight trajectory suggests that a serve contact must be about 9 ft (2.7 meter) above the baseline. I suspect that, even with a modest jump, a 5'7" player can reach 9 ft above the court.

Important to note, however, that flat serves do not actually have a straight line trajectory. A laser light beam would have a pretty straight trajectory but a served ball would not. The ball trajectory would be affected by gravity and aerodynamic drag (air friction). This would cause the ball trajectory to curve downward relative to an angled straight line trajectory.

Tennis Server - Tennis Science, Engineering and Technology - 9 Feet Tall For A No Spin Serve?

Tennis Science, Engineering and Technology by Dr. Jani Macari Pallis.

www.tennisserver.com

 

[slipgrip93]

Yup
This is exactly how I felt watching this 6'4 dude serve. He wasn't in the best shape visibly... he was just tall and had experience...and here I am...doing triathlons, on off days doing box jumps, biking, swimming, running in the morning, training etc... best shape of my life....

And this dude just slams the ball so hard that you blink and you missed the return. Oh well.

It seems plenty forget Rod Laver was 5'8" , and was considered a big enough and effective server to be called the "Rocket", where Sampras and his early trainers watched footage films on vhs where he learned to emulate plenty of mechanics of Laver's serve. And if you develop your serve well enough, a lower trajectory flat serve can be very decent. Also maybe consider using a heavier racquet with more twistweight if your racquet is a bit on the light side.

('Laver vs. Roche, 1969 us open final')

 

[Tennis_Slapper23]

Unless your super tall you aren’t going to be using a big flat serve. It’s really hard to have a reliable flat serve under 6 feet. It obviously can be something you can get with the right motion and jump. I think being able to place a slice and kick serve will make you better. But I would try to add a harder flat serve you throw in there once in a while to get a free point. The smaller you are you should try to aim for the T on flat serves.

 

[Yamin]

My indoor flat serve is fast enough for triple digits while currently injured, and I'm the same height.

I wouldn't say height is a limiting factor for flat serves with all the equipment available. It's just a less percentage shot as you said.

Try a short toss with fast motion.

I don't use it more than once a service game in serious matches (only at like 50% consistency), but with a strong second serve it's good to mix things up.

With that being said, better to focus on some violent slice. You can change the toss location slightly, add some topspin and you'll have a strong first and second serve in much less time.

 

[Pumpkin]

I think you can work on a flat serve as well as spin serves.

Ash Barty springs to mind as a shorter player who had a fast serve.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Try to serve like the 12 yr old that crushed MEP.

who and what??

 

[FrankyRelax]

Also your height. I have a decent flat serve around 105-110. At the very least train it for the variety in your arsenal.

Think of it like baseball pitchers. They need that variety to keep hitters guessing. Same goes in tennis

 

[Happi]

who and what??

Here you go

 

[heninfan99]

^^Thanks

 

[TennisCJC]

To keep it simple:

1. Serena is 5' 9" and averages over 100 mph. Diego Schwartzman is 5' 7" and averages over 100 mph. Justine Henin at 5' 6" and averaged around 100 mph. So, shorter players can average over 100 mph on serve. As a rec player you likely will not average 100 mph but if you can average 85-90 mph and get over 60% in the court with placement, it should be plenty good enough for 4.5 level tennis.
2. Website FuzzyYellowBalls did research and for a 5' 8" player, there is no margin of error if the player hits a true flat serve that doesn't bend in the air. If the ball's flight is a straight line, a 5' 8" player can basically hit the service line and just barely clear the net. Basically, a short player has a 3" window over the net. John Isner at 6' 9" can hit a straight line serve and land the ball up to 7' in the court due to the much higher contact. So, all your serves must bend in the air to have any margin. Federer and Sampras averaged over 2,000 rpm on their 1st serve. Even Isner hits a lot of spin on most of his 1st serves. You want to develop a fast serve that still has a lot of spin and a good movement downward. If you can hit a 95 mph serve that bends downward 12" inches, even a shorter player can clear the net by as much a foot or so and still get the ball into the court.

So, it is possible for a shorter player to develop a decent 1st serve but you want to hit a power spin serve to allow you to hit fast and get over 60% in the service box. A power spin first serve is not a kicker hit fast. I think of it more as a power slice where you toss out front a foot or so and hit up and to the right slightly to impart a 8 to 2 o'clock spin. John Yandell did research on Sampras' serve and his first serve had a steeper spin where it was closer to 7 to 1 o'clock and that allowed him to hit bombs that dove downward into the court.

 

[Happi]

To keep it simple:

1. Serena is 5' 9" and averages over 100 mph. Diego Schwartzman is 5' 7" and averages over 100 mph. Justine Henin at 5' 6" and averaged around 100 mph. So, shorter players can average over 100 mph on serve. As a rec player you likely will not average 100 mph but if you can average 85-90 mph and get over 60% in the court with placement, it should be plenty good enough for 4.5 level tennis.
2. Website FuzzyYellowBalls did research and for a 5' 8" player, there is no margin of error if the player hits a true flat serve that doesn't bend in the air. If the ball's flight is a straight line, a 5' 8" player can basically hit the service line and just barely clear the net. Basically, a short player has a 3" window over the net. John Isner at 6' 9" can hit a straight line serve and land the ball up to 7' in the court due to the much higher contact. So, all your serves must bend in the air to have any margin. Federer and Sampras averaged over 2,000 rpm on their 1st serve. Even Isner hits a lot of spin on most of his 1st serves. You want to develop a fast serve that still has a lot of spin and a good movement downward. If you can hit a 95 mph serve that bends downward 12" inches, even a shorter player can clear the net by as much a foot or so and still get the ball into the court.

So, it is possible for a shorter player to develop a decent 1st serve but you want to hit a power spin serve to allow you to hit fast and get over 60% in the service box. A power spin first serve is not a kicker hit fast. I think of it more as a power slice where you toss out front a foot or so and hit up and to the right slightly to impart a 8 to 2 o'clock spin. John Yandell did research on Sampras' serve and his first serve had a steeper spin where it was closer to 7 to 1 o'clock and that allowed him to hit bombs that dove downward into the court.

Great writeup. I watched Fognini up close this summer, and moticed that this ball toss was very much to his right, I guess that was to hit a powe spin slice serve.

 

[travlerajm]

Great writeup. I watched Fognini up close this summer, and moticed that this ball toss was very much to his right, I guess that was to hit a powe spin slice serve.

If you watch the pros, you might notice that the successful shorter players tend to use more slice and less topspin on their serves, especially the 2nd serve. For example, little 5’6” munchkin lefty nishioka has a pure 3-to-9 oclock attack angle on his 2nd serve.

In contrast, 6’4” spider-armed Tsitsipas uses much closer to a 7-to-1 attack angle on his go-to serves under pressure.

This may seem counterintuitive for short guys to serve slice and tall guys to serve with more topspin, because the short guy needs more downward dive to get more margin.

But the reason the short guy has to serve with more slice is that it’s more important for the short guy to serve with a lower bounce. The tall guy can kick a 2nd serve high enough and hard enough that it’s difficult to attack. The short guy can’t, so he has to use a different serving paradigm to make it less attackable.

If you can’t bounce it high above the strike zone with enough pace, then you’ve got to go below it.

 

[Dragy]

If you watch the pros, you might notice that the successful shorter players tend to use more slice and less topspin on their serves, especially the 2nd serve. For example, little 5’6” munchkin lefty nishioka has a pure 3-to-9 oclock attack angle on his 2nd serve.

In contrast, 6’4” spider-armed Tsitsipas uses much closer to a 7-to-1 attack angle on his go-to serves under pressure.

This may seem counterintuitive for short guys to serve slice and tall guys to serve with more topspin, because the short guy needs more downward dive to get more margin.

But the reason the short guy has to serve with more slice is that it’s more important for the short guy to serve with a lower bounce. The tall guy can kick a 2nd serve high enough and hard enough that it’s difficult to attack. The short guy can’t, so he has to use a different serving paradigm to make it less attackable.

If you can’t bounce it high above the strike zone with enough pace, then you’ve got to go below it.

You are right in general. The point with safety is to not tremble, stay calm, and rely on motion consistency and gravity - anything travelling 90mph and slower has more than enough margin to land in.

Meanwhile, Diego Schwarzman hits decent topspin serves which bounce high enough. He's a freak with strong legs drive and lift though...

By the way, if a short player serves from farther back behind the baseline, he can deliver very nasty lob-type kick serve, which goes up then down, yet decently fast it's unlikely to be attacked on rec level

 

[optic yellow]

You are right in general. The point with safety is to not tremble, stay calm, and rely on motion consistency and gravity - anything travelling 90mph and slower has more than enough margin to land in.

Meanwhile, Diego Schwarzman hits decent topspin serves which bounce high enough. He's a freak with strong legs drive and lift though...

By the way, if a short player serves from farther back behind the baseline, he can deliver very nasty lob-type kick serve, which goes up then down, yet decently fast it's unlikely to be attacked on rec level

Does it dive over the net and land relatively short in the service box?

 

[Dragy]

Does it dive over the net and land relatively short in the service box?

If I tried it, I would aim for farther half of the box. Now serving from the line my kick serves land mostly around 3/4 depth of the box, some land near the line, some go as short as 1/2, sometimes willingly on the ad side. But it's also by standing wider, like halfway between mid hash and the sideline.

I truly wonder, there are guys who repeatedly hit second serves just long. Never net. What if they just step a meter back?

 

[optic yellow]

If I tried it, I would aim for farther half of the box. Now serving from the line my kick serves land mostly around 3/4 depth of the box, some land near the line, some go as short as 1/2, sometimes willingly on the ad side. But it's also by standing wider, like halfway between mid hash and the sideline.

I truly wonder, there are guys who repeatedly hit second serves just long. Never net. What if they just step a meter back?

Why do people not think of this?

 

[travlerajm]

You are right in general. The point with safety is to not tremble, stay calm, and rely on motion consistency and gravity - anything travelling 90mph and slower has more than enough margin to land in.

Meanwhile, Diego Schwarzman hits decent topspin serves which bounce high enough. He's a freak with strong legs drive and lift though...

By the way, if a short player serves from farther back behind the baseline, he can deliver very nasty lob-type kick serve, which goes up then down, yet decently fast it's unlikely to be attacked on rec level

That’s actually a great idea. They already do that in volleyball, where tall guys do jump serves from the baseline, but regular size dudes back up 20 feet and serve high moonball serves from deep to take advantage of the downward acceleration from gravity. This deserves its own thread, as I could easily foresee it becoming a popular tactic in tennis in the future if the rules continue to allow it.

 

[Kevo]

Then I found myself asking myself- even if I train every single day to get to that level- I don't think it's possible due to height, and that's where I came here and asked that question. My flats feel solid and I can get the occasional ace every other set. But this 6'4 dude was literally acing every other serve. And that's why I posed this question.

Get the height thing out of your head. Just forget it and don't even consider it as a factor. I'm not arguing it doesn't make any difference, because it does. What I am saying is that it putting any stock in it will only limit your results. When I first started serving with "pro" technique I was probably 5'4" or 5'5". My serve went from never hitting anything close to a smoking ace, to hitting smoking ace speed almost any time I wanted, but my control was bad. Over time I developed control and then spin, and eventually I actually started serving like a smart pitcher and that made a great difference as well. If you are athletic and motivated and willing to learn, you can definitely learn to pound some heavy serves.