Is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level?

[yoyofly]

Hello,

I'm wondering is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level. I'm also using eastern grip, when I review my recordings, I can see especially that my take back, back swing, wrist flip and racket lag are quite different from Federer, well, that's almost everything. Can I just try to copy everything from him blindly or are his movements too advanced for me still? Thank you.

 

[Jonesy]

I say just copy his grip and understand how he creates topspin and pace with it. Seek inspiration by his FH but have your own technique because everyone has their own personal quirks.

In the words of Mr. Lee: Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own.

 

[Dragy]

We mostly agree on here, that there are fundamentals to learn which lead to having techniques resembling that of best pro players.

You can use Federer as inspiration as @Jonesy suggested.
You can find how fundamentals manifest themselves in Federer FH, and use this to check yourself on video.

But overall Roger is not best model to copy, not because of being too advanced, but because he’s rather idiosyncratic with his own techniques, and because he kind of developed some very specific traits for his game style as he aged, which deviate from ultimate lack of rock-solid fundamentals (because he can afford it), in my opinion.

 

[yoyofly]

We mostly agree on here, that there are fundamentals to learn which lead to having techniques resembling that of best pro players.

You can use Federer as inspiration as @Jonesy suggested.
You can find how fundamentals manifest themselves in Federer FH, and use this to check yourself on video.

But overall Roger is not best model to copy, not because of being too advanced, but because he’s rather idiosyncratic with his own techniques, and because he kind of developed some very specific traits for his game style as he aged, which deviate from ultimate lack of rock-solid fundamentals (because he can afford it), in my opinion.

Do you have any other player in mind? with an eastern forehand grip would be great! Thanks!

 

[ballmachineguy]

His forehand is quite simple in its mechanics. At 3.5, you are probably better off footwork-wise using something that allows for last-second adjustments to arm length should you get jammed etc.

 

[user92626]

Hello,

I'm wondering is it ok to copy Federer forehand when I'm at 3.5 level.

Of course. It's like a requirement when you join TT.

 

[socallefty]

Why not take some lessons and have a coach teach you the proper way to hit a FH? If you are serious about tennis, making your FH a weapon is not a bad investment. I think the Djokovic FH with a bent arm is probably easier to learn and that’s what most modern coaches will teach.

The fundamentals of hitting a good FH have a lot to do with good footwork, proper spacing, body coil, body uncoil, leg drive and proper extension. Just mimicking the swing of a pro player is less than half the battle of hitting the ball hard consistently with good topspin and accuracy. A good coach will focus on those aspects also.

 

[yoyofly]

Why not take some lessons and have a coach teach you the proper way to hit a FH? If you are serious about tennis, making your FH a weapon is not a bad investment. I think the Djokovic FH with a bent arm is probably easier to learn and that’s what most modern coaches will teach.

I had take lessons. But I guess the coaches teach me fundamental stuffs, such as rotate hips more, proper finish, etc... I'm trying to copy Federer on styling I guess, like how he extend his left arm fully after the unit turn.

 

[Fintft]

I had take lessons. But I guess the coaches teach me fundamental stuffs, such as rotate hips more, proper finish, etc... I'm trying to copy Federer on styling I guess, like how he extend his left arm fully after the unit turn.

I also prefer Roger's over Joker's but for the extended arm at contact (same with Nadal).
In short, any ATP FH will do you good, even at 3.5 if you can do the "lag" and "rotate hips first" (not more, imho) : Yes, finish strong, but go thru the ball first ,etc.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Do you have any other player in mind? with an eastern forehand grip would be great! Thanks!

Yeah: me.

Oh, you meant someone good.

Check out Roberto Bautista-Agut.

 

[zaph]

There is nothing wrong with copying any player you like, the problem is if you get too hung up with technique. For a start tennis isn't like dance or ice skating, you aren't marked on technical excellent but on your ability to win matches. The main problem is obsessing too much about technique can lead to you to play too self consciously, to not be relaxed enough.

At the end of the day what matters is whether the ball goes where you want it and has the flight that you want. If you achieve that in a way that doesn't match some ideal technique, it really doesn't matter.

 

[AnyPUG]

The eastern grip is a nightmare if you want to hit reliable top spin as a rec player - way too complicated for less than ordinary skills. Use semi-western for simplicity and ease.

 

[travlerajm]

No.

The Rogi forehand with straight-arm technique is not very well suited to being learned by the adult brain.

 

[LOBALOT]

When I was a kid Tennis Magazine had frame by frame photos of the top players and how they hit specific shots (forehand, backhand, serve, overhead, volley, etc.) and I would study them and try to learn as we didn't have Youtube, et al back then. I see nothing wrong with looking at their strokes and trying to learn.

I think you picked a pretty good player and stroke type to look at as it is simple and pretty conservative and easier for a rec player to emulate.

 

[socallefty]

Try to learn to hit FHs at 50-60 mph with >2000 rpm where you can hit 15-20 shots without missing - that should be your goal. For that, you have to master all the fundamentals and not the styles of particular pros. Your coach should be telling you to hold your offhand parallel to the baseline to get good body coil on your FH and not only because you want to look like the pros.

 

[Rattler]

Yeah: me.

Oh, you meant someone good.

Check out Roberto Bautista-Agut.

Or Andre…specifically court level view

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The eastern grip is a nightmare if you want to hit reliable top spin as a rec player - way too complicated for less than ordinary skills. Use semi-western for simplicity and ease.

I'd say Eastern is the most intuitive grip: give random, non-tennis people a tennis racquet and most will hold it that way. Even Nic said the typical beginner will pick up the racquet with a frying pan grip which is Eastern.

It's not "way too complicated"; I'd argue it's simpler than any Western variation because the palm and racquet face align in the direction you're sending the ball. That's intuitive and simple.

 

[88fingers]

Why are you stuck on the Eastern grip ? Are you over 40 years old ?
Most modern coaches are teaching younger players a semi western grip to advance past level 4.
Unless your goal is to just get to 4 and not higher ? Eastern grip is good for people who can not play more than twice a week.
Moving towards the West does require more precise timing and more practice.

 

[Fintft]

I'd say Eastern is the most intuitive grip: give random, non-tennis people a tennis racquet and most will hold it that way. Even Nic said the typical beginner will pick up the racquet with a frying pan grip which is Eastern.

It's not "way too complicated"; I'd argue it's simpler than any Western variation because the palm and racquet face align in the direction you're sending the ball. That's intuitive and simple.

And you hit thru the ball, directly at your target as opposed to brushing up on the ball...
You get enough spin from:
1. Dropping the racquet bellow the ball and finishing above the net to quote @J011yroger
2. Strings like poly
3. Spinny 16x19 racquets such as Artengo TR60 and Blade Pro v8

 

[yoyofly]

Try to learn to hit FHs at 50-60 mph with >2000 rpm where you can hit 15-20 shots without missing - that should be your goal. For that, you have to master all the fundamentals and not the styles of particular pros. Your coach should be telling you to hold your offhand parallel to the baseline to get good body coil on your FH and not only because you want to look like the pros.

I meant to ask, offhand parallel to the baseline, okay. How about offhand need to straight up or bend is ok. Does the offhand need to match the hitting arm. If straight hitting arm, then offhand arm also need to be straightened , if not, then not?

 

[AnyPUG]

I'd say Eastern is the most intuitive grip: give random, non-tennis people a tennis racquet and most will hold it that way. Even Nic said the typical beginner will pick up the racquet with a frying pan grip which is Eastern.

It's not "way too complicated"; I'd argue it's simpler than any Western variation because the palm and racquet face align in the direction you're sending the ball. That's intuitive and simple.

If you want to hit consistent top spin with some level of power, eastern is hard. semi-western is easy to get topspin and more foregiving than eastern.
If someone is able to hit good ts shots with eastern, he is probably more talented than average.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

And you hit thru the ball, directly at your target as opposed to brushing up on the ball...

Precisely. It's also why it's the intuitive grip for the serve. Beginners don't intuitively grasp [no pun intended] the idea behind the Continental grip.

 

[LOBALOT]

Why are you stuck on the Eastern grip ? Are you over 40 years old ?
Most modern coaches are teaching younger players a semi western grip to advance past level 4.
Unless your goal is to just get to 4 and not higher ? Eastern grip is good for people who can not play more than twice a week.
Moving towards the West does require more precise timing and more practice.

No that is completely false.

Most really good modern coaches are not teaching the western grip as they know it can be pressured leading to short responses in the center of the court which is a no no for anyone over a 9 UTR playing someone over a 9 UTR. Most really good modern coaches are teaching either semi-western or eastern and having their players drive the ball through the court for winners.

 

[LOBALOT]

Precisely. It's also why it's the intuitive grip for the serve. Beginners don't intuitively grasp [no pun intended] the idea behind the Continental grip.

Exactly!

 

[LOBALOT]

Most of the really good coaches I see take that junior player in their 12s-14s and spend the next few years taking that western grip and correcting it and making it more conservative and a weapon to hit penetrating shots through the court. For really good players net clearance is not a problem. Hitting big shots through the court is usually something they need to learn. This isn't ping pong. This is a big boys big hitting game.

 

[Dragy]

I'd say Eastern is the most intuitive grip: give random, non-tennis people a tennis racquet and most will hold it that way. Even Nic said the typical beginner will pick up the racquet with a frying pan grip which is Eastern.

Dunno, just checked my “frying pan” grip by gripping one… it’s closer to SW. my FH grip is a tad more conservative though

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Dunno, just checked my “frying pan” grip by gripping one… it’s closer to SW. my FH grip is a tad more conservative though

If I tried picking up my cast iron skillet with a Western grip, I'd sprain my wrist. Eastern is the way to go!

 

[user92626]

If I tried picking up my cast iron skillet with a Western grip, I'd sprain my wrist. Eastern is the way to go!

I would see a doctor if I were you. Some people get arthritis early.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Why are you stuck on the Eastern grip ? Are you over 40 years old ?

So if he's > 40, Eastern is OK but not if he's < 40?

And how is he "stuck" if that's what he learned?

Most modern coaches are teaching younger players a semi western grip to advance past level 4.

I'll ask my coach friends what grip they teach.

What is "level 4"? Is that a junior designation [ie not NTRP or UTR]? Remember, this forum is predominantly comprised of adults.

Unless your goal is to just get to 4 and not higher ?

if it's good enough for level 4, why is it not good for higher?

If it's good enough for Federer and Bautista-Agut, shouldn't it at least not be dismissed out-of-hand?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I would see a doctor if I were you. Some people get arthritis early.

Good thing I use a stable Eastern grip for the cast iron. No arthritis yet!

 

[yoyofly]

Folks, let’s just say I will be pretty darn happy if I can reach level 4.0.

 

[Injured Again]

Try to learn to hit FHs at 50-60 mph with >2000 rpm where you can hit 15-20 shots without missing - that should be your goal. For that, you have to master all the fundamentals and not the styles of particular pros. Your coach should be telling you to hold your offhand parallel to the baseline to get good body coil on your FH and not only because you want to look like the pros.

There are very few recreational players that consistently hit over 2000 RPMs on their forehand. Those that think they do are pretty surprised when they get on a Playsight court and find out the actual story is quite different.

I've played on a Playsight court and I average around 1200 RPMs, and among the 4.5's and 5.0's at my club who aren't juniors, I'm in the upper half of topspin production. I did generate about 3000 RPMs when I swung so hard that I dislocated my gizzard, but that's unsustainable except for an every-so-often shot.

 

[johnmccabe]

Folks, let’s just say I will be pretty darn happy if I can reach level 4.0.

It sounds like you are probably not focusing on the right thing, if that's your goal.

 

[Dragy]

If I tried picking up my cast iron skillet with a Western grip, I'd sprain my wrist. Eastern is the way to go!

You cannot be serious! It’s a chopper grip, but rotated 90 deg. Or do you chop with EBH grip?!

 

[johnmccabe]

No.

The Rogi forehand with straight-arm technique is not very well suited to being learned by the adult brain.

Everyone probably tried to copy some pro at some point. Maybe it's not a bad thing to just get it over with by copying the good looking one and failing quickly.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@S&V-not_dead_yet @user92626

You cannot be serious! It’s a chopper grip, but rotated 90 deg. Or do you chop with EBH grip?!

Palm up or palm down?

The conventional way to hold a skillet or frying pan, while cooking, is palm up with something close to a conti (chopper) grip. I could see using a semi-conti (or weak Eastern) but, for me, a standard EFh grip would be very awkward.

However, more often, I employ a palm down grip. (Disclaimer: I’m not a chef). With palm down, I’ll likely use a SW grip. However, if the pan / skillet handle is angled 30°or more off to the side, I might use something close to an EFh grip.

 

[Curious]

Eastern

https://imgur.com/a/XrZ5Lan

Semi western

https://imgur.com/a/MnfmSqo

 

[AnyPUG]

I'd say Eastern is the most intuitive grip: give random, non-tennis people a tennis racquet and most will hold it that way. Even Nic said the typical beginner will pick up the racquet with a frying pan grip which is Eastern.

It's not "way too complicated"; I'd argue it's simpler than any Western variation because the palm and racquet face align in the direction you're sending the ball. That's intuitive and simple.

Frying pan grip is not eastern, it's semi-western.

 

[AnyPUG]

`

 

[AnyPUG]

There are very few recreational players that consistently hit over 2000 RPMs on their forehand. Those that think they do are pretty surprised when they get on a Playsight court and find out the actual story is quite different.

I've played on a Playsight court and I average around 1200 RPMs, and among the 4.5's and 5.0's at my club who aren't juniors, I'm in the upper half of topspin production. I did generate about 3000 RPMs when I swung so hard that I dislocated my gizzard, but that's unsustainable except for an every-so-often shot.

15 fhs at 50-60 mph and 2000 rpm without missing sounds wildly spurious tbh

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I did generate about 3000 RPMs when I swung so hard that I dislocated my gizzard, but that's unsustainable except for an every-so-often shot.

I hope you located your gizzard: it's a terrible thing to waste.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

You cannot be serious! It’s a chopper grip, but rotated 90 deg. Or do you chop with EBH grip?!

I pick up my cast iron skillet sitting on the stove the same way I'd pick up a racquet if it was also lying horizontally: with an Eastern FH grip, palm down.

This is a 12" solid cast iron baby: it's so heavy, I can't even flip onions when I'm sauteing them, like you see on cooking shows: the skillet is just too darn heavy.

My grip is such that if I were to swing the skillet like a FH, I'd be hitting the ball with the bottom of the skillet.

The further away from Eastern I twist towards Western, the more stress will be on my wrist; Eastern allows me to lock my wrist and transfer stress to the forearm.

If I tried lifting the skillet with a full Western grip, I'd drop it on my foot. Not good with cast iron.

You can always come over and I'll experiment while the skillet is over your foot.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

@S&V-not_dead_yet @user92626

Palm up or palm down?

The conventional way to hold a skillet or frying pan, while cooking, is palm up with something close to a conti (chopper) grip. I could see using a semi-conti (or weak Eastern) but, for me, a standard EFh grip would be very awkward.

OK, I see the confusion: you're describing when the skillet is already on the stove. I'm describing lifting the skillet from elsewhere [say, a countertop] and transferring it to the stove.

The things I learn on this tennis forum.

 

[TennisCJC]

It's is certainly OK to copy the Federer forehand if you are savvy enough to copy the key bits and interpret what he is doing correctly. The key bits are early prep which is simply a turn of the shoulders keeping both hands on the frame, a small continuous loop back, down and forward through contact and a finish just over or beside the left shoulder. The racket hand never goes behind the shoulder line during the loop. The wrist lays back as the core rotation pulls the arm forward and the wrist stays laid back through contact. Their is no conscious manipulation of the wrist around contact and the wrist is passive through contact. The racket head actually moves up and out through contact with good extension and then the hand releases into a wiper finish long after the ball is gone. Straight arm or bent arm is OK but Federer is almost always straight arm. Bent arm is OK but don't tuck the elbow into your rib cage so you have T-Rex arms. If you get all this, then yes, copy Fed.

 

[Dragy]

I pick up my cast iron skillet sitting on the stove the same way I'd pick up a racquet if it was also lying horizontally: with an Eastern FH grip, palm down.

This is a 12" solid cast iron baby: it's so heavy, I can't even flip onions when I'm sauteing them, like you see on cooking shows: the skillet is just too darn heavy.

My grip is such that if I were to swing the skillet like a FH, I'd be hitting the ball with the bottom of the skillet.

The further away from Eastern I twist towards Western, the more stress will be on my wrist; Eastern allows me to lock my wrist and transfer stress to the forearm.

If I tried lifting the skillet with a full Western grip, I'd drop it on my foot. Not good with cast iron.

You can always come over and I'll experiment while the skillet is over your foot.

If you continue your nonsense, you get a full kitchen video from @Curious

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

One more confusing falsehood, seriously something is not right with you - probably old age catching up?. Frying pan is not eastern, it's semi-western.

As the thread demonstrates, people pick up and hold frying pans differently. They even have different types of frying pans.

So the term is not useful.

An Eastern FH grip involves the palm and racquet face aligned in the same direction. When I make contact with a waist-high ball, the palm and racquet face are both pointing in the direction the ball will be heading.

Using the same racquet face angle, a full Western grip would have the palm facing up; a 90 degree rotation of the palm relative the racquet face.

And get off my lawn.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If you continue your nonsense, you get a full kitchen video from @Curious

I'm waiting for the "Knife Skills" episode.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's is certainly OK to copy the Federer forehand if you are savvy enough to copy the key bits and interpret what he is doing correctly. The key bits are early prep which is simply a turn of the shoulders keeping both hands on the frame, a small continuous loop back, down and forward through contact and a finish just over or beside the left shoulder. The racket hand never goes behind the shoulder line during the loop. The wrist lays back as the core rotation pulls the arm forward and the wrist stays laid back through contact. Their is no conscious manipulation of the wrist around contact and the wrist is passive through contact. The racket head actually moves up and out through contact with good extension and then the hand releases into a wiper finish long after the ball is gone. Straight arm or bent arm is OK but Federer is almost always straight arm. Bent arm is OK but don't tuck the elbow into your rib cage so you have T-Rex arms. If you get all this, then yes, copy Fed.

Fed's known also for hitting out in front. I don't know if that's a consequence of the Eastern grip or it's more idiosyncratic [or a combo].

 

[TennisCJC]

Fed's known also for hitting out in front. I don't know if that's a consequence of the Eastern grip or it's more idiosyncratic [or a combo].

My opinion is Fed uses an E/SW hybrid and it requires a contact out front. You'll also notice that when he is late, he will swing almost straight up and use the over the head lasso finish like Nadal. A SW or W requires hitting more in front to allow the racket face to open up more and it typically points downward longer as you swing forward.

 

[AnyPUG]

And get off my lawn.

I know you want to keep all the weed for yourself.