Is Nadal the greatest returner of all time?

[Dolgopolov85]

Connors and Agassi were better returners than Djokovic because they faced great servers and net rushers. They couldn’t just bunt it back, neutralise the serve etc. They had to make a winner or hit a high quality return to neutralise the net guy. Djoker is playing baseliners so far less pressure on him to make a quality return as there are no net guys today.

The actual stats/evidence say Rafa is the better returner. Djokovic fans have subjective opinion. That’s nice. I know I’d rather have the evidence.

Nice try at having both sides of the argument. You impose your subjective opinion to tell the other poster that Connors and Agassi returned better than Djokovic even though Djokovic is far ahead of them on the career return leaderboard and then when it comes to Rafa, you say "I'd rather have the evidence". Uh huh, you don't want the evidence when it's in favour of Djokovic, that's for sure.

 

[Whisper]

Nice try at having both sides of the argument. You impose your subjective opinion to tell the other poster that Connors and Agassi returned better than Djokovic even though Djokovic is far ahead of them on the career return leaderboard and then when it comes to Rafa, you say "I'd rather have the evidence". Uh huh, you don't want the evidence when it's in favour of Djokovic, that's for sure.

So you need evidence to show there are less net rushers today? Wow ok.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

So you need evidence to show there are less net rushers today? Wow ok.

So you need evidence to show that serve and return are neutralized far more on clay than grass/hard? Really dude, shake off your disingenuousness. You tried to have both sides of the argument and I called you on it, now deal with it. Walk it back, cut your losses.

 

[Whisper]

So you need evidence to show that serve and return are neutralized far more on clay than grass/hard? Really dude, shake off your disingenuousness. You tried to have both sides of the argument and I called you on it, now deal with it. Walk it back, cut your losses.

Returning serve is not much help if you don’t win the point. If you return 100% of serves but lose 100% of those points what’s the advantage of being a great returner? The stats show Nadal wins the most on return. That’s good enough for me. I’ll take facts over Djoker fans subjective valuation of return quality. That has zero value in my book.

 

[Whisper]

If Djoker is a better returner than Rafa can you tell us how many times did Djoker break Medvedev’s serve in USO final, and how many times did Rafa break Med’s serve in AO final? Assuming Djoker is a better returner and better hardcourt player than Rafa I expect it will be a blitzkrieg win for Djoker no? I recall Nadal having little difficulty with Med’s serve, breaking him a couple times each set in last 4 sets? Must be a goat level returner to manhandle a server like Medvedev no?

 

[RyanJax]

If Djoker is a better returner than Rafa can you tell us how many times did Djoker break Medvedev’s serve in USO final, and how many times did Rafa break Med’s serve in AO final? Assuming Djoker is a better returner and better hardcourt player than Rafa I expect it will be a blitzkrieg win for Djoker no? I recall Nadal having little difficulty with Med’s serve, breaking him a couple times each in last 4 sets? Must be a goat level returner to manhandle a server like Medvedev no?

What weird, flawed, transitive principle gone wrong logic.

Djoko is obviously a better returner just LOL at this thread.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Returning serve is not much help if you don’t win the point. If you return 100% of serves but lose 100% of those points what’s the advantage of being a great returner? The stats show Nadal wins the most on return. That’s good enough for me. I’ll take facts over Djoker fans subjective valuation of return quality. That has zero value in my book.

And, I repeat, the same stats show Coria to be a better 'returner' than Nadal and Djokovic to be better than Connors and Agassi. I don't even have a dog in this fight, but you can start telling Djokovic fans to accept data over opinions when you start doing that yourself.

 

[Whisper]

What weird, flawed, transitive principle gone wrong logic.

Djoko is obviously a better returner just LOL at this thread.

So it’s weird to accept facts/evidence over Djoker fans ‘it’s just obvious’ claims?

 

[Whisper]

And, I repeat, the same stats show Coria to be a better 'returner' than Nadal and Djokovic to be better than Connors and Agassi. I don't even have a dog in this fight, but you can start telling Djokovic fans to accept data over opinions when you start doing that yourself.

My point is there is zero evidence to support the idea Djoker is goat returner. Nadal is clearly better based on facts. There are other players also better than Djoker as you allude to.

 

[RyanJax]

So it’s weird to accept facts/evidence over Djoker fans ‘it’s just obvious’ claims?

It has been explained in detail why those stats do not mean what some of you are claiming they do, so it is just blind ignorance and bias to ignore it at this point. I really hope you guys know better, but I suspect CQ at least does not and is a "true believer".

You think Franco Davin, Guillermo Coria, and Diego Schwartzman are among the GOAT returners because of a misapplied "return game" aggregate stat that obviously favors anyone who plays more matches/wins more on clay? I suspect you know that you are wrong.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

My point is there is zero evidence to support the idea Djoker is goat returner. Nadal is clearly better based on facts. There are other players also better than Djoker as you allude to.

No, you produced zero facts yourself to prove that Connors and Agassi are better returners than Djokovic. You can't use the leaderboard where it tells you that Nadal is better than Djokovic and reject it when it says Djokovic is better than Connors and Agassi. Oh and do you really think Coria is the best returner of all time, seriously? Kindly post a video of yourself saying that so I can see you saying it with a straight face.

 

[Whisper]

You think Franco Davin, Guillermo Coria, and Diego Schwartzman are among the GOAT returners because of a misapplied "return game" aggregate stat that obviously favors anyone who plays more matches/wins more on clay? I suspect you know that you are wrong.

I haven’t addressed who I think is goat returner so no idea why you’re bringing in all these other names? All I said was Nadal is clearly a better returner than Djokovic based on actual evidence. I don’t accept Djoker fans ‘it’s just obvious’ as actual evidence. Bizarre notion.

 

[RyanJax]

I haven’t addressed who I think is goat returner so no idea why you’re bringing in all these other names? All I said was Nadal is clearly a better returner than Djokovic based on actual evidence. I don’t accept Djoker fans ‘it’s just obvious’ as actual evidence. Bizarre notion.

Because Coria, Perez Roldan, Bersatuegi, and Davin are all ahead of Novak along with Rafa on the list you are using., it is obvious there is something wrong with the stat as a measure of return. Do you honestly think those guys all have a better return than Novak.

Think about it logically, clay is a surface that LEAST rewards a great ROS and is more about longer rallies, yet all the top 4 besides Rafa are clay court specialists and Rafa obviously has played and won the most on clay of any surface...to accept this stat you are saying you just think random clay mugs (lets forget Nadal for a second) have the ATG returns who are most adept at playing on a surface where return matters the least?

OBVIOUSLY, it is because ANYONE wins more return games and loses more service games on a surface where longer, neutral rallies are more common, so those who play the majority of their matches or win more on clay will win more return games. This is SO obvious. In Nadal's case, he is the slam king now and an all time great on all surfaces, but clearly his clay court prowess and disproportionate success here will affect this statistic too.

Again you are using a list as evidence that has Coria as the greatest returner of all time. Lol.

 

[AntonZweck]

Rafa's numbers 21 GSes is by default the greatest returner.

 

[Whisper]

Because Coria, Perez Roldan, Bersatuegi, and Davin are all ahead of Novak along with Rafa on the list you are using., it is obvious there is something wrong with the stat as a measure of return. Do you honestly think those guys all have a better return than Novak.

imo those guys are lower tier guys so silly to compare them to the big 3 who won 20 slams and played for 20 yrs. This seems to be a weak tactic used by Djoker fans to discredit Nadal, who has an extensive body of work like Fed/Djoker. Suggesting someone like Coria having better return stats than Djoker (silly because sample size is not comparable) means we have to discredit stats altogether and instead go with Djoker fans ‘it’s just obvious’ is a huge belly laugh. The stats support Rafa as the better returner, and even the visual evidence - eg Djoker v. Med USO final compared to Nadal v Med AO final, prove Nadal was far more successful breaking Med’s serve and making him really work to hold, no easy games. Also AO hardcourt is Rafa’s worst slam/surface and Djoker’s best. Also keep in mind if Rafa wasn’t injured so much the goat race would be long over with Rafa on about 28-30 slams by now. I bet you’d be surprised to learn Rafa won USO last time he entered, and that was 3 years ago! People need to realise Rafa has skipped a lot of slams while Fed and Rafa played everything, and still Rafa is slam king despite all the advantages Fed/Djoker enjoyed.