SLD76
G.O.A.T.
Not Novak's fault that the ATP slowed the courts down m2nk2.After all he can only play in the conditions afforded to him. I think he'd've done just fine in the 90s.
I disagree.
Djokovic - is he the greatest returner of all time?
- Thread starter FedererDropShot
- Start date
I disagree.
m2nk2
Hall of Fame
Not Novak's fault that the ATP slowed the courts down m2nk2.
Oh, I wasn't blaming Djoko. Just saying that he does look good now, but then we have to take into account the current weak era, slow courts and poly strings. It was tougher for people in the 90s to be good because of high competition, great variety of courts from slow to fast and no poly strings.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
That is your privilege.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
He ain't the greatest returner of all time. The greatest returner of all time does not have the most trouble with the biggest servers in his generation on slowed down courts with better racket and string technology for Pete's sake!
He is the best returner of this generation and is the number one player in the world so people like to promote this generation to try and create excitement about the sport and they tend to forget past generations. It is normal.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
In your opinion of course cc0.
m2nk2
Hall of Fame
He's one of the best of his generation at best. Have you ever seen him play against Roanic? Djoko is going crazy trying to return lol
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Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Just to be clear, I think it's obvious that Djokovic is one of the contenders for being the best returner overall of the era, and for having the best return game. I just decided to look through some stats (there are more to post but it takes effort and I'm lazy) just to see what could be found and not be lazy (lol wot) with the general assumption that Djokovic certainly is the best returner of his time. It doesn't seem clear-cut and there's no harm in arguing it.
Ferrer has a way less dominating ground game overall and yet often produces excellent results on the return and in return games won %.
Ferrer has a way less dominating ground game overall and yet often produces excellent results on the return and in return games won %.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Djokovic hasn't lost to Raonic.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
True. Rafa isn't the best pure returner per se..he just backed it up so well with his ground game. It will be interesting to see his return stats the next few years.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes of course it is my opinion. IMO he is up there as one of the greatest returners of all time but I can't call him the greatest when he has some trouble vs a few of the biggest servers in his generation while Agassi had to deal with dozens of big servers all of the time on faster courts and he had winning h2hs vs all of them (except for Sampras.)
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
Good points.
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Nathaniel_Near
Guest
I don't know so much about Connors but Agassi had his obvious weaknesses on the return. Neither Agassi or Djokovic are flawless and neither are definitely the best returner of their times. They could be but they don't go unchallenged.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Well, he had loads of trouble in that one match vs Raonic in Rome 2014 but since then he seems to have figured Raonic's serve out, at least for now.
m2nk2
Hall of Fame
Nah, but he has been struggling a lot. Agassi and Bjorkman did a lot better job returning Ivanisevic, Sampras or Phillipoussis. And it was a lot harder for them.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
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Nathaniel_Near
Guest
How cute.
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tennisdad65
Hall of Fame
Connors, Agassi and Novak are on the top of the list. Cannot differentiate between these guys. Novak has the size and speed advantage over them. But Agassi had the better instincts. Tough call.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
Connors had a comparatively weak serve. He placed it well, but it did not have much speed. He was always vulnerable to low balls with no pace, which is how Ashe beat him. Like all great returners, his success varied by surface.
One mistake made with modern players is assuming that returning great means being equally good on all surfaces. No one is equally good on all surfaces.
I think Fed, Novak and Rafa return as well on their best surfaces as any I have seen.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
Just wanna point out that Nadal's stats are also bumped up a deal because of the relatively greater percentage of matches he plays on clay, and also how generally dominant his ground game is on that surface, whereas serve and return have less to say. The same factor is very obvious with Coria, and presumably to some extent with Ferrer. This not to say that Nadal doesn't return well, though.
Murray>Djokovic when it comes to the return itself. The numbers back this up on HC and grass, despite the help Novak gets from his arguably slightly superior ground game.
Murray>Djokovic when it comes to the return itself. The numbers back this up on HC and grass, despite the help Novak gets from his arguably slightly superior ground game.
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
Nadal's return game has a higher % than on HC and grass, as is true of all the top players. But his peak for % return games won is higher for his career on clay is as high as anyone else we have stats for.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't get what you're trying to say right here, the sentences are a bit off.
To be clear myself, I'm not casting doubt about Nadal's general return game. But when looking at the stats, the way the clay-skew spike the numbers should be noted. Nadal plays a greater chunk of his matches on clay compared to, say, Murray, and seeing as return % are always higher on clay, this has an effect on the total numbers. As with Coria.
Tennisknowledge99
Banned
''Greatest return of serve" tends to be very subjective, because both players and conditions change over time. Generally speaking, return of serve is something which declines very noticeably as players age. During his heyday, Federer's return of serve was held in awe for his ability to easily return huge serves by Roddick, Ljubicic, Karlovic etc. Now, it is widely mocked and by stats appears to be pretty ineffective.
Agassi's famous return of serve was shadow of its former glory after he turned 30. In his last years on the Tour, he was extremely easy to ace. Most notable match was 2005 Australian Open 4th round, Agassi was aced 51 times by Johansson in 4 sets. Borg noted in 1980 how Connors's famous return of serve had detoriated as he had aged. He considered himself and Mac as the best returners on Tour, both were younger than Connors.
Game and the conditions change. Give Nole a natural gut racquet and put him against Goran in 1996 on indoors carpet, and he is going to get aced. A lot.
Novak Djokovic: One of the greatest returners in this era.
Agassi's famous return of serve was shadow of its former glory after he turned 30. In his last years on the Tour, he was extremely easy to ace. Most notable match was 2005 Australian Open 4th round, Agassi was aced 51 times by Johansson in 4 sets. Borg noted in 1980 how Connors's famous return of serve had detoriated as he had aged. He considered himself and Mac as the best returners on Tour, both were younger than Connors.
Game and the conditions change. Give Nole a natural gut racquet and put him against Goran in 1996 on indoors carpet, and he is going to get aced. A lot.
Novak Djokovic: One of the greatest returners in this era.
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Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
LOUSY sentence:
Let me try again:
Nadal's % of return games won is higher % on clay than on HC and grass, as is true of all the top players.
But his peak for % of return games won is as high as anyone else we have stats for.
I have NO idea where that word salad came from!
To be clear myself, I compare stats on clay to clay. The ATP gives that choice. I think I am agreeing with you. It is REALLY important to keep the stats separate.
BringBackSV
Hall of Fame
As should be expected. Stats aside, not particularly impressed by Nadal's returns of serve but clearly he's been effective winning return points/games.
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