Is toss the most important for a topspin serve?

[BackhandDTL]

if you toss at 11 o clock and you use a strong continental/slight ebh grip , does this essentially force you to brush up the back of the ball?

I mean, it seems impossible to hit a slice/flat serve with this toss.

So....is this all there really is to it?

I don't give a crap about kicking over a dude's head or hitting a 110 mph kick serve ace like Rafter. I don't want to look at the muscles activated in ulnar deviation, pronation, supination, or any of that crap. I don't want to analyze fractions of degrees.

Groundstrokes are my bread and butter, for the serve im just trying to have some reliability.

So is this it?

 

[r2473]

Why not just hit a forehand groundstroke for your serve? It's legal.

 

[BackhandDTL]

Why not just hit a forehand groundstroke for your serve? It's legal.

I actually did that before. You know how Rafa jumps on the back foot and does a lasso?

I did that before and I got some sick junk ball spin. Probably only a little slower than my sorry second serve, but wayyyyy better placement. And I can get that in 95% of the time.

 

[r2473]

I actually did that before. You know how Rafa jumps on the back foot and does a lasso?

I did that before and I got some sick junk ball spin. Probably only a little slower than my sorry second serve, but wayyyyy better placement. And I can get that in 95% of the time.

I never understood why people hit dink second serves when they could just do this.

Anyway, sorry for going off topic. Just thought it was something for you to consider.

 

[BackhandDTL]

I never understood why people hit dink second serves when they could just do this.

Anyway, sorry for going off topic. Just thought it was something for you to consider.

But wouldn’t it be severely frowned upon? Might even get laughed out of the building if I hit a normal, decent first serve and then decide to do a Nadalesque lasso forehand for a second serve?

the thing for me is that it’s not really a dink. It’s just not reliable enough. I can’t get tons of kick so I’ve resorted to a lower margin topspin serve

 

[AnyPUG]

Yes, it is. (assuming you have nailed down other critical elements of the top spin serve)

 

[BackhandDTL]

Yes, it is. (assuming you have nailed down other critical elements of the top spin serve)

Knee bend, moderate back arch, modified continental grip. Anything else?

Natural swing path not so much. If I don’t get the 11 o clock toss I don’t get much top.

 

[Shroud]

Knee bend, moderate back arch, modified continental grip. Anything else?

Natural swing path not so much. If I don’t get the 11 o clock toss I don’t get much top.

Chest stays facing the side fence

 

[BackhandDTL]

Chest stays facing the side fence

How do I do that? Is that a natural result of standing on the balls of your feet and laying back (bit of back arch)

 

[Shroud]

How do I do that? Is that a natural result of standing on the balls of your feet and laying back (bit of back arch)

Unit turn. Watch edberg

 

[ballmachineguy]

How do I do that? Is that a natural result of standing on the balls of your feet and laying back (bit of back arch)

It should just happen as a result of your trophy position already being facing pretty much that way and the fact that your racquet swinging arm is swinging more east-west and less north-south than you do on a first serve. Given all that, you shouldn’t have to force yourself to be facing to the right.

 

[BackhandDTL]

It should just happen as a result of your trophy position already being facing pretty much that way and the fact that your racquet swinging arm is swinging more east-west and less north-south than you do on a first serve. Given all that, you shouldn’t have to force yourself to be facing to the right.

I think I have that mostly down except the fact that sometimes I’m not bending my knees on the balls of my feet, which makes it hard to lay back. Also makes it harder to see the ball and judge to toss. So... my chest is to the side but it is never facing up completely.

so now I’ve incorporated the slight back arch and also making sure I’m at the balls of my feet at trophy.

 

[socallefty]

If it’s only about the toss, every rec player including the OP should be able to hit a good kick serve. In reality, very few rec players have a good kick serve that bounces up high with twist spin and it is only the players who have received good coaching typically as juniors that have one.

 

[FatHead250]

Topspin serve is the least toss dependant type of serve. For slice and flat serves toss is way more important

 

[BackhandDTL]

If it’s only about the toss, every rec player including the OP should be able to hit a good kick serve. In reality, very few rec players have a good kick serve that bounces up high with twist spin and it is only the players who have received good coaching typically as juniors that have one.

Like I said in the post, I’m not trying to hit a crazy kick serve

 

[Dragy]

If your basic serve has spin on it, moving the toss more to the left will favor that spin to be more top than side. However, it's absolutely possible to hit flat serve with toss to 11 o'clock, as well as all kind of weird flawed serves.
If you want to focus on the ball to facilitate topspin for your serve, also care about letting it drop just a tad lower.

 

[Blitzball]

I think I have that mostly down except the fact that sometimes I’m not bending my knees on the balls of my feet, which makes it hard to lay back. Also makes it harder to see the ball and judge to toss. So... my chest is to the side but it is never facing up completely.

so now I’ve incorporated the slight back arch and also making sure I’m at the balls of my feet at trophy.

I'm a coach so maybe I can help. First, about the trophy position, you don't need to focus so much on looking like a trophy. Please don't arch your back. Your focus should be on extending your tossing arm so that you are essentially starting a cartwheel. Face mostly to the right or totally to the right like Federer, for example, and with the cartwheel mindset, you will hit up on the ball better. All the leg stuff--the knee bend, heels up--should come after you get the upper body/shoulder positions to a comfortable place.

For the toss, do not put the ball at the 11 o'clock. This is how players hurt their shoulder. If anything, toss the ball to the 12 at the most, while keeping it just in front of you. As long as you keep good height on both the toss and the swing, you should not hit the net and get the great clearance over the net that is key to a solid topspin serve.

Lastly, before you swing up, make sure your racquet face is in a closed position. As in, the strings are showing to the back of your head and not to the sky. Just throwing that in there because this is a make or break part of executing a topspin serve effectively. Good luck.

 

[BackhandDTL]

I'm a coach so maybe I can help. First, about the trophy position, you don't need to focus so much on looking like a trophy. Please don't arch your back. Your focus should be on extending your tossing arm so that you are essentially starting a cartwheel. Face mostly to the right or totally to the right like Federer, for example, and with the cartwheel mindset, you will hit up on the ball better. All the leg stuff--the knee bend, heels up--should come after you get the upper body/shoulder positions to a comfortable place.

For the toss, do not put the ball at the 11 o'clock. This is how players hurt their shoulder. If anything, toss the ball to the 12 at the most, while keeping it just in front of you. As long as you keep good height on both the toss and the swing, you should not hit the net and get the great clearance over the net that is key to a solid topspin serve.

Lastly, before you swing up, make sure your racquet face is in a closed position. As in, the strings are showing to the back of your head and not to the sky. Just throwing that in there because this is a make or break part of executing a topspin serve effectively. Good luck.

I’ve tried tossing at 12 but I don’t get enough spin or upward swing with this toss. It usually goes way long or it hits the net. Maybe after a few months when I get used to the swing path.

I don’t really arch but I do lay my back so my chest faces the sky. Is this still suboptimal?

 

[BackhandDTL]

Topspin serve is the least toss dependant type of serve. For slice and flat serves toss is way more important

Really? Because some guys don’t have to change the toss at all to disguise the slice/flat serve. Pete, Federer etc.

For kick I’ve noticed that even Pete tosses further behind his head.

I can hit a slice serve with a toss over my head but I can’t hit a topspin serve if it’s any right of 12 o clock.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Think about your forehand. With the ball there in your comfort zone, from that same position, you can hit slice, topspin or sidespin.
To an extent, this is also true of the serve- it is (just as in the forehand) the path of the racket head through the ball that determines
the spin imparted to the ball. The problem with creating topspin is that the ball is hanging there 10' above the ground- how do you
create a low to high swing path?

The more topspin you want to create (just as in a groundstroke), the steeper your angle of follow through needs to be.
Lay your arm over your head so your elbow is by your ear and the arm rests on top like a log- then straighten the arm so it "points" up-
this is the general motion for creating big topspin. As you can see, the ball needs to be farther back (than for a flat serve) so you can
swing your serve up, through and across the ball. But that is not the extreme that you are looking for. You just want to add a bit of topspin
so you can hit the ball hard and keep it in the service box.

Again, just as in a groundstroke, you can hit with tons of topspin or just a smidge. You need to find something between your flat ball and
one that kicks up over the receiver's head.

You may need to experiment a bit. Start by tossing the ball just a bit back from your normal impact point and just a bit lower (maybe an inch for both).
Keep your arm and wrist loose and imagine your swing as a sort of upside pendulun. You want to contact the ball just before the head arrives at the farthest
point in its arc you should feel your wrist sort of snapping up and then forward (like the feel of throwing a knife). This will be, basically, your normal serve with some topspin added.

And yes, the toss is important- you need to find that spot that allows you to create the kind of spin you are seeking, remember that spot and recreate that toss
when needed.

 

[EddieBrock]

I like these videos. For a real kick serve toss it's over your head or your left shoulder, let the ball drop, and pretend you're throwing a football or tomahawk up towards the ball.

For a reliable topspin/slice just toss overhead so you have to hit up and slice like normal after you've hit up. Seems like this is what you're asking about

Not a coach or anything but it seems to work for me

 

[BackhandDTL]

I like these videos. For a real kick serve toss so it's over your head or your left shoulder, let the ball drop, and pretend you're throwing a football or tomahawk up towards the ball.

For a reliable topspin/slice just toss overhead so you have to hit up and slice like normal after you've hit up. Seems like this is what you're asking about

Not a coach or anything but it seems to work for me

What do you mean about slice like normal. Slice the right side of the ball or slice the back side of the ball

 

[EddieBrock]

What do you mean about slice like normal. Slice the right side of the ball or slice the back side of the ball

Swing up towards the ball and then slice the right side and open your shoulders like a regular slice

 

[TennisCJC]

Eddie’s post 21 has 2 good simple videos. I have seen and used these videos too. I would add you can still toss a little into the court for kick serve with a bit of penetration. Tossing over you head is good to start but my serve sits up if I toss it there. If I toss it in line with my head but 3 or 4 inches in front toward the net, it has more pace

 

[BackhandDTL]

Eddie’s post 21 has 2 good simple videos. I have seen and used these videos too. I would add you can still toss a little into the court for kick serve with a bit of penetration. Tossing over you head is good to start but my serve sits up if I toss it there. If I toss it in line with my head but 3 or 4 inches in front toward the net, it has more pace

Makes sense. I can better imagine myself going up and through the ball than purely up. If I imagine something that steep, it has shank written all over it in my visualization.

 

[FatHead250]

Really? Because some guys don’t have to change the toss at all to disguise the slice/flat serve. Pete, Federer etc.

For kick I’ve noticed that even Pete tosses further behind his head.

I can hit a slice serve with a toss over my head but I can’t hit a topspin serve if it’s any right of 12 o clock.

What I rather meant is that for slice and flat the point of contact should be more precise. With a topspin serve, you can let the ball drop some more and still hit a good serve, while with a flat serve it goes long immediately

 

[Miki 1234]

No , it can help to get more consistency and more kick on average on neutral toss (lands just by the left side of left foot if you let it bounce) but you can hit it with spin anyway you throw it even for extreme slice slice, but then it will have some side spin as well so less kick .

 

[PMChambers]

Personal preference but I prefer the toss more 12 to 12:30. So the brush is away from the body more. As RH that will give you kick Left to Right and playing that to RH player is nasty. Also means the slice looks same and can probate for flatter serve.
I believe a decent topspin serve needs decent pace. Pace takes time away, kick makes tregetory uncertain. I see too many rec Kickers too slow, allow time to move and react.

 

[PURETENNISsense]

I’ve tried tossing at 12 but I don’t get enough spin or upward swing with this toss. It usually goes way long or it hits the net. Maybe after a few months when I get used to the swing path.

I don’t really arch but I do lay my back so my chest faces the sky. Is this still suboptimal?

Tossing at 11 is not a bad thing depending on your body and what it's capable of. There are players who toss at 11 or 12 and still create some back arch. If you take good care of your body and your core, hips, etc you'll be fine tossing at 11.

People always make kick serve videos and don't talk about if specific body types can handle a more "extreme" version of a serve type. This is also not age specific. I'm 33 and I'm able to use my hips, back and core basically the exact same (if not more) than when I was 20-25 and playing in college/Men's Opens.

I'd be happy to look at your serve if you have footage of it and give you some constructive feedback.

One of my biggest serve weapons is my kick serve and people have said it's "extreme" in the past. Doesn't bother me because it works for my body type.

 

[Jake Speeed]

If you really want to hit the kicker, there's a few things you must learn first.

The first item is, you really have to have and understanding as to what has to take place in order to pull it off properly.

11? When I was in my prime I'd hit the ball just about at 10.

"Brush" there's no such thing, the racket head must go up and through the ball with pronounced "pronation." Plus, the pronation has to happen quickly at the right contact point. Just pronating won't do it.

Without these three things working correctly, a quality kicker cannot be hit.

When your ready for more information, on how to approach the steps/technique to master this fine and useful weapon, let me know.

J

 

[PURETENNISsense]

If you really want to hit the kicker, there's a few things you must learn first.

The first item is, you really have to have and understanding as to what has to take place in order to pull it off properly.

11? When I was in my prime I'd hit the ball just about at 10.

"Brush" there's no such thing, the racket head must go up and through the ball with pronounced "pronation." Plus, the pronation has to happen quickly at the right contact point. Just pronating won't do it.

Without these three things working correctly, a quality kicker cannot be hit.

When your ready for more information, on how to approach the steps/technique to master this fine and useful weapon, let me know.

J

Well said! Completely agree!

 

[Jake Speeed]

Well said! Completely agree!

Well thank you.

You're reply will be good for my Forum standing.

A good thing because I am having some difficulty getting my points accepted.

J

 

[Jake Speeed]

What do you mean about slice like normal. Slice the right side of the ball or slice the back side of the ball

These guys ARE NOT hitting a "kick" serve.

I'm sure I'll get in trouble for saying this but, I don't care.